You already have all the weight you need to squat

jimmmer

I love body weight progressions- but it's not suitable for my goals right now- so I don't do them- but they are wonderful and a fantastic option for a lot of people.

Also, this^

There are some bodyweight progressions that most people who consider themselves strong under a barbell just can't do. Because they rely on strength to bw ratio.

Some upper body bodyweight moves are unbelievable (and you have to be unbelievably strong in relation to your bw to do them). But loaded leg strength work (and I include kb, db, sandbag, barbell in this) is hard to beat.

MadDogManor

Thanks for the info, OP. I'm working night shift now, and I'm doing things like lunges and leg raises at 4 am to help keep me awake! Maybe I can incorporate some of these exercises to have a more productive 3rd shift workout

likitisplit

I hate all this fake body weight vs. weight lifting mock debate.

All squats are body weight squats. Some of them include additional tools, such as kettleballs or barbells. I'd argue that a lot of people would be best served by learning perfect form before they start adding load, but there is no reason to not to use heavy weights when you are ready. There are also a number of ways to increase the load by using progressive body weight exercises. What you choose to do depends on your goals. There is no "right" and "wrong" here.

And all the people I know who are serious about lifting do not dismiss body weight exercises and variations.

likitisplit

bodyweight exercises are great...as long as you progress in them.

There are a lot of people who 1) don't want to lift weights 2) can't afford to 3) can't due to injury etc 4) other things

and doing resistence training and or bodyweight is the way to go and you do get a good workout.

I've been heavy squatting for 10months...not sure I could do a pistol squat...will have to try it.

The Convict Conditioning program has an awesome progression for this. I've just stopped falling on my *kitten* with one leg slightly raised.

likitisplit

Once you get to the stage where you can crank out 5+ pistols, no problemo, then your only option is to add some weight (in which case your bodyweight isn't all you need) or do something like the jumping pistol squat. Which is admittedly more challenging, but is really becoming a plyometric exercise: more for developing power on a certain pre-existing strength base. Which is great, but not going to get you significantly stronger beyond a certain point.

Having seen the likes of Steve Cotter pistol for reps with heavy double kb's, there's a progression you can push beyond what most people will ever be capable of. But it'll never reach the level of strength you can achieve with a loaded barbell - that's just a fact.

I jimmmer.

likitisplit

BTW - there are a couple of forums for bodyweight exercises. This is the one that seems to be most active, so I've been posting my progress there regularly:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/groups/home/166-bodyweight-training

busywaterbending

I am all for body weight exercises! I truly believe that if you can't do a body weight squat, one legged squat, pistol squat, etc. then you are not ready for weight.

full range of motion is where it's at! and pullups, pushaways, dips, handstands, love!!! Without full range of motion leg work women will develop thighs instead of glutes. I personally hate it when your *kitten* is smaller than your thighs.

my typical leg workout is 100 reps of 7 variations of different squats/lunges before I even hit the leg press machine or grab a barbell. Guessing it's a woman thing. And yes, I can pistol. Must be the kung fu training I had. And add those jumps ladies! Best way to gain a shelf!

JTick

I agree that a lot can be achieved by bodyweight alone, although I do think eventually you'll exhaust the ways to contort your body to raise the difficulty. I guess at that point, it would be a matter of deciding to maintain fitness or start looking at weights.

For me, I lack the flexibility to achieve some of the bodyweight exercises, particularly squats. I can't do a pistol squat. The strength is there, the flexibility is not. So I'll squat 200 pounds in a normal stance instead.

jemhh

The majority of my strength training is bodyweight, based off of the Start Bodyweight basic routine. I like it because I can do it anywhere with very little equipment. Plus I just like its simplicity. Pistol squats, full pull ups, and handstand pushups are a long way off for me so I'm not really concerned with running out of progressions at this point.

yogicarl

I'm personally confident I will never exhaust ways to contort my body to raise the difficulty. Also being able to handle my own bodyweight while balancing on one foot is more in line with the yoga style I am strength training for.

More upper leg girth - even muscle mass - would not help me to progress in my main activity; it would actually hold me back even if my legs were significantly stronger by doing squats.

Its a case of training with specific goals in mind and picking the right tool for the job.

jimmmer

Once you get to the stage where you can crank out 5+ pistols, no problemo, then your only option is to add some weight (in which case your bodyweight isn't all you need) or do something like the jumping pistol squat. Which is admittedly more challenging, but is really becoming a plyometric exercise: more for developing power on a certain pre-existing strength base. Which is great, but not going to get you significantly stronger beyond a certain point.

Having seen the likes of Steve Cotter pistol for reps with heavy double kb's, there's a progression you can push beyond what most people will ever be capable of. But it'll never reach the level of strength you can achieve with a loaded barbell - that's just a fact.

I jimmmer.

Ha ha!

Someone's got to...

jimmmer

I'm personally confident I will never exhaust ways to contort my body to raise the difficulty. Also being able to handle my own bodyweight while balancing on one foot is more in line with the yoga style I am strength training for.

More upper leg girth - even muscle mass - would not help me to progress in my main activity; it would actually hold me back even if my legs were significantly stronger by doing squats.

Its a case of training with specific goals in mind and picking the right tool for the job.

Don't confuse increase strength with increased muscle mass...

You can train for strength or hypertrophy (or a combo) with either bodyweight, weighted or both styles of training.

Adding mass is normally just having sufficient volume under sufficient loading parameters plus enough food. All kinds of training (from bodyweight -> kb's -> db's -> barbells) can induce hypertrophy.

JoRocka

I am all for body weight exercises! I truly believe that if you can't do a body weight squat, one legged squat, pistol squat, etc. then you are not ready for weight.

that's ridiculous.

They are tools. They are not related one to the other in terms of progression.

I've never been able to do a full perfect form pistol- I have gotten close- because I used to work with them more often- but now I do assisted (usually the cable rope pull down on a fixed point at the gym for me) as accessory work.

Am I supposed to not compete in my power lifting competition because I can't do a pistol? No of course not. that's rubbish.

They are tools.

If they help you meet your goal- then they are the appropriate tool- if they do not help you meet your goal- then it is not the correct tool. A plain body weight squat doesn't help develop your barbell squat. You can do them all day long- but they aren't the same thing- you have to practice a bar bell squat in order to squat properly with a barbell.

BenjaminMFP88

Nope, sorry, it's really not "just as good." You could do 100 bodyweight squats, and you're never going to get the same activation that you get from squatting some serious weight. I could do bodyweight squats all day now and not even get sore, but adding my bodyweight on a barbell and squatting it will allow me to really feel it after a 5 x 5.

There are some awesome bodyweight exercises, but squats just aren't on that list.

Can you do self balanced pistol squats?

yogicarl

I'm personally confident I will never exhaust ways to contort my body to raise the difficulty. Also being able to handle my own bodyweight while balancing on one foot is more in line with the yoga style I am strength training for.

More upper leg girth - even muscle mass - would not help me to progress in my main activity; it would actually hold me back even if my legs were significantly stronger by doing squats.

Its a case of training with specific goals in mind and picking the right tool for the job.

Don't confuse increase strength with increased muscle mass...

You can train for strength or hypertrophy (or a combo) with either bodyweight, weighted or both styles of training.

Adding mass is normally just having sufficient volume under sufficient loading parameters plus enough food. All kinds of training (from bodyweight -> kb's -> db's -> barbells) can induce hypertrophy.

Good point, thank you. I do always train within the 5 - 6 range with this in mind as high strength to weight ratio is most important for me over hypertrophy and I find the one-sided leg work helps in my balance which is also important.

(I'm not about to try BB squatting on one leg!)

likitisplit

I am all for body weight exercises! I truly believe that if you can't do a body weight squat, one legged squat, pistol squat, etc. then you are not ready for weight.

that's ridiculous.

They are tools. They are not related one to the other in terms of progression.

I've never been able to do a full perfect form pistol- I have gotten close- because I used to work with them more often- but now I do assisted (usually the cable rope pull down on a fixed point at the gym for me) as accessory work.

Am I supposed to not compete in my power lifting competition because I can't do a pistol? No of course not. that's rubbish.

They are tools.

If they help you meet your goal- then they are the appropriate tool- if they do not help you meet your goal- then it is not the correct tool. A plain body weight squat doesn't help develop your barbell squat. You can do them all day long- but they aren't the same thing- you have to practice a bar bell squat in order to squat properly with a barbell.

I hadn't realized that. I feel more stable and flexible now that I've worked up to full body weight squats. I can see that you'd need to relearn and adjust for the difference in loading (stupid bodies and their stupid adaptations for EXACTLY the exercises you practice) but I thought that there would be some carry-over at least.

I don't believe that a pistol-squat would increase ability under the bar - a lot of the work of that seems to come with core stability and is completely different than pushing weight with both legs. (Of course, I could be misguided on that as well.)

bizgirl26

I think the whole point of the thread is that you dont need weights or a gym to get a good workout. Maybe if you have been lifting heavy you want get much out of a regular squat but holy crap those piston squats are tough. Also you can progress like with triceps dips you start with your legs bent and closer togther them move them further away and keep them straight. And push ups are my favourite. progress to one arm etc.. Weights are good but so is using your own body weight. Especially if you have too much :embarassed:

Lofteren

I'm a huge proponent of bodyweight resistance exercises. e.g. Push Ups, Pull Ups, Bodyweight squats, etc...

I read a book a few years ago that I absolutely love by Mark Lauren called You Are Your Own Gym. It details how you can use minimal equipment to work your whole body, and to this day I still consult that book when I'm planning out my workouts.

Tonight I happened across a post on his website about squatting progression:
https://www.marklauren.com/blog/2014/06/squatting-progression/
Basically, how you can use absolutely no added weight and progress from one of the easiest leg exercises around (Sumo Squats) to one of the most difficult (Pistols with legs switch and jump). And let's just say that I'm closer to the hardest one than I am the easiest one, but I still have a long way to go!

Now, I am NOT in ANY WAY trying to diss using weights to work out. In fact I do still use weights for added resistance myself. But when it comes right down to it, you don't *really* need them to get a damn hard workout.

I'm curious how many others out there are also into bodyweight exercises and who has seen some good results from them.

You may not need squats to get a good "workout" but if you are actually training for something that requires you to be strong then yes, you do need weights with which to squat.

The key here is distinguishing the difference between "working out" and "training".

JoRocka

I am all for body weight exercises! I truly believe that if you can't do a body weight squat, one legged squat, pistol squat, etc. then you are not ready for weight.

that's ridiculous.

They are tools. They are not related one to the other in terms of progression.

I've never been able to do a full perfect form pistol- I have gotten close- because I used to work with them more often- but now I do assisted (usually the cable rope pull down on a fixed point at the gym for me) as accessory work.

Am I supposed to not compete in my power lifting competition because I can't do a pistol? No of course not. that's rubbish.

They are tools.

If they help you meet your goal- then they are the appropriate tool- if they do not help you meet your goal- then it is not the correct tool. A plain body weight squat doesn't help develop your barbell squat. You can do them all day long- but they aren't the same thing- you have to practice a bar bell squat in order to squat properly with a barbell.

I hadn't realized that. I feel more stable and flexible now that I've worked up to full body weight squats. I can see that you'd need to relearn and adjust for the difference in loading (stupid bodies and their stupid adaptations for EXACTLY the exercises you practice) but I thought that there would be some carry-over at least.

I don't believe that a pistol-squat would increase ability under the bar - a lot of the work of that seems to come with core stability and is completely different than pushing weight with both legs. (Of course, I could be misguided on that as well.)

Yeah learning to properly BW squat is great- everyone should know how. Getting an idea of form BEFORE you put weight on your back is helpful- because some problems need addressing in advance- but ultimately- you need a broomstick- a pvc pipe- or the bar for barbell squats.

There is no question BW progression squats can help improve your weighted squat- for example a solid pistol squat has tremendous ankle mobility which will translate directly to a barbell squat.

It's mobility carry over- but you can do BW squats till the cows come home and have a for sht barbell squat.

Now- the liklelyhood of you having an amazing barbell squat and a for *kitten* body weight squat? smaller. But it is possible that someone who ONLY does barbell- has poor body awareness to do a bodyweight squat.

They are not interchangable- but they are very supplemental. Just tools- it's not an us verses them kind of situation.

SemperAnticus1643

That is all.

jimmmer

That is all.

I sense an accident in that girl's future...

BigGuy47

You may not need squats to get a good "workout" but if you are actually training for something that requires you to be strong then yes, you do need weights with which to squat.

The key here is distinguishing the difference between "working out" and "training".

Gymnasts train for "something". For them the strength to bodyweight ratio is critical. For power lifters it's insignificant.

Massive legs look great, but the added weight won't help when attempting an Iron Cross.

jimmmer

For power lifters it's insignificant.

Unless they're weight-class athletes, of course...

Lofteren

For power lifters it's insignificant.

Unless they're weight-class athletes, of course...

Which most powerlifters are...

The only ones who aren't worried about weight are super heavyweights and that's one of the smaller weight classes.

jimmmer

For power lifters it's insignificant.

Unless they're weight-class athletes, of course...

Which most powerlifters are...

The only ones who aren't worried about weight are super heavyweights and that's one of the smaller weight classes.

Sure are.

My sarcasm-font is on the fritz, so my earlier post didn't come across right!

Lofteren

You may not need squats to get a good "workout" but if you are actually training for something that requires you to be strong then yes, you do need weights with which to squat.

The key here is distinguishing the difference between "working out" and "training".

Gymnasts train for "something". For them the strength to bodyweight ratio is critical. For power lifters it's insignificant.

Massive legs look great, but the added weight won't help when attempting an Iron Cross.

If strength to bodyweight ratio is what's important then they should be lifting heavy weights with low reps and training with lighter weights while focusing on bar speed for multiple short sets. You cannot train for strength without displaying strength to some extent.

jimmmer

There seems to be a little bit of confusion as to the fact that if you get under a barbell and squat, you'll have massive legs. Or if you do bodyweight training you won't add mass.

As lofteren notes, you can have a higher intensity and lower volume under a barbell and you'll get strength adaptations without loads of mass.

You can also incorporate pistols into some thing like Staley's EDT and you'll build some mass if you eat enough.

People have got to divorce strength/hypertrophy/weighted/unweighted training and look at it all with a critical eye.

likitisplit

There seems to be a little bit of confusion as to the fact that if you get under a barbell and squat, you'll have massive legs. Or if you do bodyweight training you won't add mass.

As lofteren notes, you can have a higher intensity and lower volume under a barbell and you'll get strength adaptations without loads of mass.

You can also incorporate pistols into some thing like Staley's EDT and you'll build some mass if you eat enough.

People have got to divorce strength/hypertrophy/weighted/unweighted training and look at it all with a critical eye.

And this is why I find it frustrating that the issue is consistently framed as "body weight" vs. "heavy weights."

It would be better is to have a discussion of goals that included all of the tools to get there.

You want massive thighs - consider these options.

You don't want massive thighs - consider these options.

jimmmer

There seems to be a little bit of confusion as to the fact that if you get under a barbell and squat, you'll have massive legs. Or if you do bodyweight training you won't add mass.

As lofteren notes, you can have a higher intensity and lower volume under a barbell and you'll get strength adaptations without loads of mass.

You can also incorporate pistols into some thing like Staley's EDT and you'll build some mass if you eat enough.

People have got to divorce strength/hypertrophy/weighted/unweighted training and look at it all with a critical eye.

And this is why I find it frustrating that the issue is consistently framed as "body weight" vs. "heavy weights."

It would be better is to have a discussion of goals that included all of the tools to get there.

You want massive thighs - consider these options.

You don't want massive thighs - consider these options.

It's a question of intensity and volume.

But people do get caught up in their favourite thing and it skews their perspective towards other things.

The main thing is you have to trig your intensity/volume/diet right to get the adaptation you want. Then have some kind of intelligent progression and recovery to keep forcing that adaption.

Then you just have to do the hard work and be consistent....(!)

likitisplit

I am all for body weight exercises! I truly believe that if you can't do a body weight squat, one legged squat, pistol squat, etc. then you are not ready for weight.

that's ridiculous.

They are tools. They are not related one to the other in terms of progression.

I've never been able to do a full perfect form pistol- I have gotten close- because I used to work with them more often- but now I do assisted (usually the cable rope pull down on a fixed point at the gym for me) as accessory work.

Am I supposed to not compete in my power lifting competition because I can't do a pistol? No of course not. that's rubbish.

They are tools.

If they help you meet your goal- then they are the appropriate tool- if they do not help you meet your goal- then it is not the correct tool. A plain body weight squat doesn't help develop your barbell squat. You can do them all day long- but they aren't the same thing- you have to practice a bar bell squat in order to squat properly with a barbell.

I hadn't realized that. I feel more stable and flexible now that I've worked up to full body weight squats. I can see that you'd need to relearn and adjust for the difference in loading (stupid bodies and their stupid adaptations for EXACTLY the exercises you practice) but I thought that there would be some carry-over at least.

I don't believe that a pistol-squat would increase ability under the bar - a lot of the work of that seems to come with core stability and is completely different than pushing weight with both legs. (Of course, I could be misguided on that as well.)

Yeah learning to properly BW squat is great- everyone should know how. Getting an idea of form BEFORE you put weight on your back is helpful- because some problems need addressing in advance- but ultimately- you need a broomstick- a pvc pipe- or the bar for barbell squats.

There is no question BW progression squats can help improve your weighted squat- for example a solid pistol squat has tremendous ankle mobility which will translate directly to a barbell squat.

It's mobility carry over- but you can do BW squats till the cows come home and have a for sht barbell squat.

Now- the liklelyhood of you having an amazing barbell squat and a for *kitten* body weight squat? smaller. But it is possible that someone who ONLY does barbell- has poor body awareness to do a bodyweight squat.

They are not interchangable- but they are very supplemental. Just tools- it's not an us verses them kind of situation.

I actually find it easier to do prisoner squats because it allows me to engage my core better. When the reps get higher, I'll put my hands up and pretend to be pushing against a bar to hold everything together.

You know, I have a knitting book that has all of the different casting-on and casting-off techniques, when you might use them, and the pro's and con's. I know that strength training programming is different - it needs to be built holistically and include things like optimal recovery - but it would be nice to have a resource called something like "Strength" that included power, as well as raw strength, as well as endurance, etc and looked at the tools to reach the various common goals.