The Age Old Debate: Organic or Conventional

Alyssa_Is_LosingIt

OOO and I have my own garden of tomatoes, broccoli, swiss chard, lettuce, peas, peppers, squash and gourds. I use 7even to combat flea beetles on my broccoli. I would use it on other edibles too if I had a pest problem. So not even my own garden is "organic". :laugh:

Beware because chemicals. Also toxins. And GMOs, oh noes.

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Escloflowne

I love how people think "organic" labelled food don't have forms of synthetic pesticides used on them....

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JupeJones

What I do know, or what the evidence that I've read seems to point to, is that growing GMO crops in monoculture is bad for our environment, is by and large unsustainable, and is therefore an mostly undesirable process.

Yes, I think if there's a cause for concern, that's it.

I think it's pretty much settled these days that organic/non-gmo foods aren't really any more or less healthier for you, the individual, directly, than the alternative. But man-made pesticides and genetic modification can sometimes (not always!) be used as tools in processes that can have longer-term negative externalities.

So I suppose the question is, what's the best way to handle those cases? Is avoiding GM produce at the grocery store the best way to encourage more responsible farming practices? To what extent does it discourage legitimate GM benefits, such as reducing hunger in developing countries?

bcattoes

I grow a lot of my own produce and I grow it organically.

But food at the store with the 'organic' label is not pesticide free, and soon may not even be limited to natural pesticides. The label has less and less meaning as years go by and the FDA approves more and more pesticides for use under the 'organic' label.

I buy produce by freshness and price. Surprisingly, organic is often the cheaper option for some fruits and vegetables at the grocery store.

Throughout the warmer months I buy most of what I don't grow at the farmers market, but little of it is organic, and none of it is certified organic. Sevin is widely used on local farms.

SideSteel

I'm not convinced that there's any danger in non-organic produce and consequently I don't buy organic.

neandermagnon

Never has a chemical touched my land.

Of course it has. Heck, your land is made up of nothing BUT chemicals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_substance

Let me correct that by saying I have never put a drop of chemical on my land.

You don't water your plants?

Don't be annoying. You know full well what the poster means.

No, it's a very important point. It's basic science... matter is made of chemicals. Water is a chemical. All this fear of "chemicals" is fearmongering

There are natural compounds in the death cap toadstool that will make you die a painful and very unpleasant death about 10-15 days after eating it. It is 100% natural.

Apparently death cap toadstools taste very nice, according to people who ate them by accident (they are very easily confused with some edible fungus).

Ergot is another 100% natural fungus that grows on rye will make you die a terrifying and painful death (it contains a compound similar to LSD that makes people have terrifying hallucinations while they're dying a painful death from this toxin's other effects)......... you can get that from eating organic rye as the fungus is hard to spot.


This distinction between "natural" and "unnatural" chemicals is misleading. Just because something's natural it does not mean it's good for you, or harmless. Just because something's unnatural, it doesn't mean it's bad for you. And it's all chemicals. You're made of chemicals. All the food you eat is made of chemicals. The air you breathe is made of chemicals. You paid attention in year 7 science classes, right? (Or whatever grade it was that covered this in the American system.)

poohbah4

Two separate issues . . . processed and organic/non-organic. Personally, I try to avoid most processed foods, and I have my own veggie garden in the summer. But in my opinion, organic produce is highly overrated.

poohbah4

And BTW, I was a chemist for 35 years and analyzed a great many foods for residues of pesticides. I have also followed the yearly results of the FDA surveys of foods for pesticide residues. The VAST majority of foods, something like 90+% contain no detectable residues of pesticides (the limits of detection are in the parts-per-billion range using modern methods and instruments). Of the small amount where residues were detected, they were predominantly well below the limits permitted in the particular food. Of the even smaller number of violative residues, the majority were traces of pesticides not registered for use in that particular food.

colibri23

So I suppose the question is, what's the best way to handle those cases? Is avoiding GM produce at the grocery store the best way to encourage more responsible farming practices? To what extent does it discourage legitimate GM benefits, such as reducing hunger in developing countries?

Again, excellent points. I'm not convinced that avoiding GM produce is the best way to encourage more responsible farming practices. I certainly think that such an avoidance not enough, by itself, to bring about some sort of drastic change in the practice of sustainable farming. But I also don't have the answer to what will---more crop rotation, and less monoculture for sure, but then how does one 'encourage' such a thing in these gigantic factory farm whose wheels are already turning quite profitably? Perhaps one answer is buying a diet that is diverse, based on plants and whole foods, and when possible is locally sourced....it seems to me that if I were to go that route, rather than buying corn and soybean filled products as many (read: most) conventionally and readily packaged food is, my dollars might speak for me. I know that's not the perfect answer to encourage sustainable farming. I know that there are probably downsides to it---but I think, based on what I've read, that it's probably a better answer than shrugging and doing nothing. What do you think?

Also, I think that the potential benefits of GM crops are all too often completely overlooked. Besides reducing hunger, what about the potential of something like Golden Rice? The idea of being able to supply MORE micronutrient rich food is awesome, the benefits of which would be particularly striking in areas of the world in which people are super deficient in a particular micronutrient while also being malnurished. Exciting things, really, and surely worthy of more study! It's an interesting thought that avoiding GMO crops in the grocery store might lead to less effort going towards studying agriculture GE when it comes to more global benefits such as hunger and malnurishment. I would like to believe that GM plants such as Golden Rice would still get studied and funded as a project without a high demand for GM plants that are pesticide resistant and grown in mega farms---but that may be being naive. The problem is that people don't distinguish between these two examples of GM plants, and lump all "GMOs" as either "bad" or "fine" when really it depends on whether you mean for your health (probably fine, but again time will tell) or the environment (seems to be bad under current practices).

fooninie

I don't care about the organic labels. I believe to be truly organic, you would have to grow it yourself, which in your case, you do, so great! I am more of the Non-GMO type. Modifying foods seems unnatural and concerns me much more.

sullus

I'm of the opinion that the whole "organic" thing is mostly a money grab, im sure it makes a bit of difference but most of the pesticides and whatnot are washed off.

there is almost always some sort of chemical contamination on the soil, be it from runoff from another source, direct contact with chemicals, or even rain bringing pollutants down to ground level. you can only get so organic

but again, this is mostly my speculation, i havent really done all that much research on the topic

Organic produce is treated with chemical fertilizers and pesticides. Some organic pesticides are arguably more harmful than the synthesized ones .. Some interesting reads:

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/2011/07/18/mythbusting-101-organic-farming-conventional-agriculture/
http://npic.orst.edu/ingred/organic.html
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2011/06/18/137249264/organic-pesticides-not-an-oxymoron
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~lhom/organictext.html

sullus

I don't care about the organic labels. I believe to be truly organic, you would have to grow it yourself, which in your case, you do, so great! I am more of the Non-GMO type. Modifying foods seems unnatural and concerns me much more.

Depends on the level of GMO: I'm not a fan of laboratory gene splicing and manipulation, but I totally support GMO via selective breeding ... in that regard, almost everything we eat is a GMO

ETA: Qualifier to gene manipulation.

Wetcoaster

http://www.popsci.com/node/135265/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/anti-gmo-campaigner-won-over-by-gmo-science-1.2586073

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/genetic/10-misconceptions-gmos.htm#page=0


http://www.biofortified.org/2013/12/with-scientists-on-both-sides-of-the-gmo-debate-how-can-you-know-whos-wrong-or-right/

asdowe13

Let me correct that by saying I have never put a drop of chemical on my land.

You don't water your garden? Water's full of chemicals like hydrogen and oxygen. :happy:

My (admittedly snarky) point, of course, is that EVERYTHING is made up of chemicals. Both the "man-made" stuff and the "mother nature" stuff. It's all chemistry either way, isn't it?

For some reasons we tend to make a distinction that substances that come from nature or from the activities non-human animals are "good", but substances that come from the activities of human animals are "bad".

Which seems odd to me. There are plenty of perfectly "natural" things that are terrible for you--even toxic. And there are plenty of 'human" things that are just fine--even life-saving.

So yeah, I guess it's getting a bit too philosophical for the point of this thread, but... Humans are part of nature, so why aren't they things we make part of nature too? Why is a beaver dam, or a honeycomb, or an anthill considered "nature", but a Ford Mustang or a Apple iPad not? Aren't they all just the result of an animal using the abilities nature gave it to fashion new things out of its environment?

Isn't it interesting that when we use our muscles and organs (the brain is an organ!) to transform some substances into a new substance, we call the result "artificial", but when a spider or a bee does the same thing to make a web or honey we call it "natural"?

You win the Internets today!

cwolfman13

I think it is largely a scam. I do keep my own garden and love that fresh produce...but buying organic at the store is largely a scam...lots of semantics involved if you really look into it.

TAsunder

Organic = I prefer it for things like strawberries or potatoes where the chemical use is at least somewhat more regulated and I otherwise can't research the source. But it may not make any difference.

GMO = I would prefer to avoid since I think there are a lot of dubious ethics going on in the industry. I doubt there are any real health implications of any common GMO product.

trinatrina1984

Look up the Bullsh** Episode Penn & Teller did on organic foods. Organic is a money grab and there's no discernible difference between organic and non-organic. They fed people samples of fruit and asked them which tasted better, organic or non. Everyone choose organic. The only problem? Both samples came from the same non-organic fruit that they simply cut in half. Oops! Organic doesn't even mean pesticide free. It just means natural pesticides rather than man made ones. Also, do you think organic means mom and pop sells food to your grocery store? Nope. Who are the biggest "organic" food producers? Conagra and other large companies. Dur.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdOQHjqOscM

love this show

joepage612

pick your battles. organic for some things and conventional for others. mushrooms should always be organic. do your own research be your own guide. pick and choose. thats what i did.

kaseyr1505

I don't eat organic, unless it's something I've grown. I cannot justify the cost, and I haven't read any conclusive studies that make me feel like I should be eating organic. I think a lot of the organic products that are available are marketing ploys.

QueenBishOTUniverse

I may need to switch my avatar for this one. Look, I work in marine ecology. There are some major concerns about ecosystem effects from large scale farming practices, and as someone has already mentioned, monoculture crops etc. are also an issue. But let me be clear on this.... NONE of the scientific concerns relating to organic farming practices or GMO's have ANYTHING to do with whether the foods are harmful for the consumer. These are large scale ecosystem effects, and ecologist's very real concerns are getting drowned out by a bunch of scare mongering propaganda and turning the entire issue in to a damn joke so that the real problems get swept under the rug and aren't being dealt with. /end rant.

likitisplit

I may need to switch my avatar for this one. Look, I work in marine ecology. There are some major concerns about ecosystem effects from large scale farming practices, and as someone has already mentioned, monoculture crops etc. are also an issue. But let me be clear on this.... NONE of the scientific concerns relating to organic farming practices or GMO's have ANYTHING to do with whether the foods are harmful for the consumer. These are large scale ecosystem effects, and ecologist's very real concerns are getting drowned out by a bunch of scare mongering propaganda and turning the entire issue in to a damn joke so that the real problems get swept under the rug and aren't being dealt with. /end rant.

I was going to answer this, but then realized I could just copy/paste the above.

The ax I grind: chemical fertilizers and pesticide kill the soil bacteria that provide nutrients to plant and absorb water. Flooding, top soil erosion, etc. are the issues I see with conventional farming practices.

PapaChanoli

The ax I grind: chemical fertilizers and pesticide kill the soil bacteria that provide nutrients to plant and absorb water. Flooding, top soil erosion, etc. are the issues I see with conventional farming practices.

I work in agriculture. I am fairly studied about soil biology and I will agree that soil biology is a key factor in produce quality, and not just bacteria, but bugs, fungi and more. Modern agricultures primary focus is quantity with as little sacrifice to quality as possible. That focus is the same for organic agriculture but organic agriculture can't keep up with the demand, therefore we get higher prices, creative marketing aka manipulative lies and deceptive farming practices to get those foods in our shopping carts, The sad fact is that much of what we fear in our foods is based on myth. I'm not saying ALL of our fears (I share some of them) are wrong, but many are simply urban, legendary myth.

One example: Modern agriculture, be it organic or not, is extremely efficient at water resource management and top soil retention, otherwise farmers would work themselves out of business, yet over the years I have repeatedly heard that agriculture causes flooding and soil erosion. I'm sorry, but that is not true in any general sense. Still that truth does reflect how easily we buy into the organic produce mindset. It's easy to do. We want the best for ourselves and our children and unfortunately, fear sells better than anything else.

Eat what you can afford to eat. I don reject organic agriculture, I just see it for what it is. If you put a red label on the *kitten* end of Levi's jeans and make the fabric a little thinner you will save money in production and be able to double the price, because people desire the best for themselves and looks are important in our culture. They tried it and it worked.

Organic farming started with some really cool ideas and ideals, and then it turned into the red label.

jmv7117

I mentioned organic foods in a post and it stirred up all kinds of comments. So, I was wondering how the majority feels on the subject.
My humble opinion: Eat organic whenever possible. Who needs the added junk they put on our foods to prolong shelf life and keep insects from eating our food. Insects are small, I think they'll leave some for us
I agree that organic foods are not "better" for you in that the nutrients in vegetables don't change when you leave off the pesticides, herbicides. . .
I have an advantage however; we grow a lot of our own food. We have a vegetable garden, herb garden, a pear tree, apple tree, plum tree, apricot tree, mulberry tree, raspberry bushes, blackberry bushes, blueberry bushes and 2 grape arbors. Over the years I've planted them for the very purpose of providing my family with good clean produce.
Never has a chemical touched my land. I don't have a lot of land either. All of this is grown on less than an acre with enough open space to look like I have a gold course.
I have a pony who also eats only organic as well as my chickens. Many of the herbs and small veggies (i.e. cherry tomatoes, hot peppers) grow on my porch.
So yeah, I am a proponent of organic foods. If you can't grow them, afford them or find them than convention is the next best thing so don't go without your fruits and veggies.

I'm on the organic side. I grow as much as possible, buy from organic growers/producers and health food stores as well as order organic from the source. To me, it is not even a debate. It is our choice to go organic and fully realize others may not share that viewpoint. It is the best choice for us.

QueenBishOTUniverse

The ax I grind: chemical fertilizers and pesticide kill the soil bacteria that provide nutrients to plant and absorb water. Flooding, top soil erosion, etc. are the issues I see with conventional farming practices.

I work in agriculture. I am fairly studied about soil biology and I will agree that soil biology is a key factor in produce quality, and not just bacteria, but bugs, fungi and more. Modern agricultures primary focus is quantity with as little sacrifice to quality as possible. That focus is the same for organic agriculture but organic agriculture can't keep up with the demand, therefore we get higher prices, creative marketing aka manipulative lies and deceptive farming practices to get those foods in our shopping carts, The sad fact is that much of what we fear in our foods is based on myth. I'm not saying ALL of our fears (I share some of them) are wrong, but many are simply urban, legendary myth.

One example: Modern agriculture, be it organic or not, is extremely efficient at water resource management and top soil retention, otherwise farmers would work themselves out of business, yet over the years I have repeatedly heard that agriculture causes flooding and soil erosion. I'm sorry, but that is not true in any general sense. Still that truth does reflect how easily we buy into the organic produce mindset. It's easy to do. We want the best for ourselves and our children and unfortunately, fear sells better than anything else.

Eat what you can afford to eat. I don reject organic agriculture, I just see it for what it is. If you put a red label on the *kitten* end of Levi's jeans and make the fabric a little thinner you will save money in production and be able to double the price, because people desire the best for themselves and looks are important in our culture. They tried it and it worked.

Organic farming started with some really cool ideas and ideals, and then it turned into the red label.

Believe me when I say, I don't think for one minute that our planet's population can be supported without big agro. I buy organic when I can because I think it's important to put my money where my mouth is so to speak. In other words, organic farming *originally* was about environmental sustainability, and as an ecologist, that's a really important issue to me. As a marine ecologist, there's still A LOT of work that needs to be done. How you balance out feeding a 7 billion person global population without causing some of these issues is clearly a problem that needs work and financial incentive is one way to push that work along, so I vote with my $$$ hoping the businesses will work towards sustainability even if it is all about the marketing.

jmv7117

What I do know, or what the evidence that I've read seems to point to, is that growing GMO crops in monoculture is bad for our environment, is by and large unsustainable, and is therefore an mostly undesirable process.

Yes, I think if there's a cause for concern, that's it.

I think it's pretty much settled these days that organic/non-gmo foods aren't really any more or less healthier for you, the individual, directly, than the alternative. But man-made pesticides and genetic modification can sometimes (not always!) be used as tools in processes that can have longer-term negative externalities.

So I suppose the question is, what's the best way to handle those cases? Is avoiding GM produce at the grocery store the best way to encourage more responsible farming practices? To what extent does it discourage legitimate GM benefits, such as reducing hunger in developing countries?

The use of GMOs to reduce hunger in developing countries has already been shown to be an unnecessary measure.

parkscs

I usually buy what's fresher and I buy local whenever possible (which tends to be organic). Personally I don't stress about some of the produce I eat not being organically grown. I do like to support local farmers though and, particularly when it comes to meat, freshness makes all the difference.

QueenBishOTUniverse

What I do know, or what the evidence that I've read seems to point to, is that growing GMO crops in monoculture is bad for our environment, is by and large unsustainable, and is therefore an mostly undesirable process.

Yes, I think if there's a cause for concern, that's it.

I think it's pretty much settled these days that organic/non-gmo foods aren't really any more or less healthier for you, the individual, directly, than the alternative. But man-made pesticides and genetic modification can sometimes (not always!) be used as tools in processes that can have longer-term negative externalities.

So I suppose the question is, what's the best way to handle those cases? Is avoiding GM produce at the grocery store the best way to encourage more responsible farming practices? To what extent does it discourage legitimate GM benefits, such as reducing hunger in developing countries?

The use of GMOs to reduce hunger in developing countries has already been shown to be an unnecessary measure.

Source please.