Judging people and their weight

FatFreeFrolicking

I really get a kick out of these so called "experts" here on MFP that claim that certain medications will cause weight gain when eating at or below maintenance level. People really believe this??? Seriously??? IMHO, it is just *yet* another excuse to justify being overweight. What the heck ever happened to personal accountability??

Like someone said earlier in this thread, most people *choose* to be overweight. If you are happy and want to be overweight then fine; just don't whine if you are trying to lose weight but can't because you have no (or very little) self control.

Just my two cents....

but at least they are trying, isnt that what its all about. Some people give up after 1 day. And also i dont agree with people choosing to be overweight. other than the ones who get paid loads of money doing things on webcams.

The choices made by people is what causes them to be overweight.

I was overweight and yo yo'd for 20 years...why? because I chose to eat a lot of food, I chose to not exercise.

When I did get on a "kick" I would choose to not continue and I chose to eat more and gain it back.

Why those choices were made are often mute...yes I suffered from depression at a point, yes I use MIrnea and Depo, Yes I had lots of stress as a single mom, working full time with no child support, yes my mother has major mental issues, yes I had an ex stalk me to the point restraining orders were requested

There was a lot going on but guess what there is still a lot going on and I choose to deal with it differently...I choose to go lift heavy stuff instead of stuffing my face...I choose to log and stay in a deficit when losing, maitenance when not...those are free choices...

I could choose to over eat (like this weekend...it's a choice I made) regardless of the why we still aren't being forced to over eat and not exercise.

AS for the trying yes I agree until they start the whining..and won't listen to anyone about what needs to be done, won't educate themselves and just "give up" because it's too hard or they are "special snowflakes" where the laws of physics and math don't apply...those are the one's I say "suck it up buttercup" to.

so when you were doing all this is it because u wanted to be bigger?

I think it's pretty apparent that her point is that she didn't *want* to be smaller bad enough to do something about it. No one wants to be fat, but most people don't want to do what it takes to not be fat, and has excuses while they are fat.

This is pretty much the thesis of this thread.

so that goes with my point about before saying i dont agree with people choosing to be overweight. but yes our actions have consequences

But if someone chooses not to complete any homework or study for the tests, knowing that he will likely fail the test as a result, isn't it fair to say that that person is choosing to fail his class, even if he doesn't want to and begs for a passing grade? It's basically the same thing.

IMO, the issue is that a lot of people who are overweight DO feel like it doesn't matter what they do, so it's important to help them realize that being overweight has actual explainable causes and ways to change it, tools they can use. They aren't powerless. This isn't about blaming, and I'm not sure why it immediately got taken that way. It's about empowering, pushing back on the idea that fat is just something that happens to people.

Sure, it probably sucks to have been thin and then gain weight for a medical reason, but that's not really the average situation (at least not the extreme effects being discussed here--having an injury or taking a medication that has some effect is probably common enough but doesn't change anything) nor do I think it's especially helpful to go on and on about how SOME people are supposedly innocent, as if others deserved to be fat or were less worthy. There are reasons why everyone makes the choices they do and in their shoes, who knows, but one of the harmful things, for our society and for fat people is that there's this belief that one just is or isn't fat. You see this with the people who come on MFP and resist common sense advice about calories and seem to think it's about finding some magic formula (eating certain combinations or at certain times only or all kinds of really complicated things that do seem like magic rituals) or avoiding the foods that just make you fat (if I'm under my calories but eat a gummi bear...) and so on. To see it as a simpler science-based thing, even if it still takes some experimentation to get it or some efforts to deal with your own compliance issues seems to me a much healthier approach than the idea that one is powerless.

(I realize you aren't arguing for powerlessness, but I'm trying to explain something I see underlying the initial comments and the discussion.)

No one is saying some people are more deserving of being fat or are less worthy. We are simply pointing out that some people didn't do this to themselves and that people gain weight for various reasons. When someone is stick-thin their whole life (I was a whopping 97 lbs) and then starts putting on weight when they begin a medication, it is because of the medication. Hell, if I knew antidepressants were going to cause me to gain 111 lbs, I would've never taken them in the first place.

FatFreeFrolicking

Oh good god. There are medications which increase weight - Zyprexa is a poster child for this, though many antidepressants and antipsychotics are on the list too (some have already been named). The simple fact is they do not know WHY the meds cause weight gain beyond increase in appetite. Some are thought to reduce the metabolism. Some directly screw with blood sugar and other factors, which compound the weight loss troubles. So does the med "cause" weight gain? No, not directly, and no it does not cause someone who is in a deficit to magically gain weight.

What it CAN do is slow the metabolism enough that a person who was previously in a deficit now isn't. That person gets to now choose between gaining weight on the med, quitting the med altogether (which may not be an immediate option), or eating ridiculously scant amounts of food. I have been on meds that slow metabolism (confirmed by RMR testing before and after). In order to MAINTAIN, I would have had to be eating around 900-1000 calories per day. To LOSE, I would have had to practically starve myself. Now, due to the medical issues I was bedridden so my numbers are lower, but it is still illustrative of the choice some people on medications have to make.

Did the med cause us to gain directly? No, but it left us with a really crappy choice to make. Did I choose to eat 1400 calories per day and gain over a pound a week? I suppose I did, but the alternative wasn't really an option at the time.

ETA link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635794/

In some patients, depression itself is associated with weight gain. This is compounded by treatment side effects, which may include a decrease in basal metabolic rate in addition to an increase in appetite and carbohydrate craving. An increase in weight is associated with type-II diabetes and possible insulin resistance.

Appetite, no doubt. But changes in BMR too.

Read the PDF I posted and the other long post. It will explain in detail why antidepressants cause/lead to weight gain.

I've read it, and I hear you. I think a lot of the argument is in wording - "name one medication that causes weight gain even in a caloric deficit" (paraphrasing from the question raised by a few) Well, the answer is none technically,but rather that the medication causes a change in what that deficit is for a person, and therefore said person ceases to lose weight (or starts gaining). Even with the research done into effects on the HPA axis and all that, it is still not very well understood and it's not clear why some people experience such a dramatic gain while others don't have issues - different body chemistry, of course, but what about it that alters the severity of side effects is unclear.

Finally you admit that medication in itself does not cause weight gain....but not being in a calorie deficit.

If a person is taking a medication for a serious issue such as depression etc then they should be closely monitored by their doctors and when stuff like this happens medication is tweeked...to help alleviate undesirable side effects...how do I know this...been there done that.

But as said prior if people take personal responsibilty for themselves and their own body and educate themselves and ask questions etc and do what is needed then Yah them....I will do whatever I can to help them...

Otherwise I personally don't want to hear complaints from people who aren't willing to take the bull by the horns and do what they need to do or refuse to educate themselves or work with professionals to get it sorted out...ie those that wallow in self pity and cry and don't take action cause my response to them is suck it up buttercup.

You must've missed the part where the PDF clearly stated that the medications screw with fat oxidation which is why people put on 100+ lbs even though they are in a caloric deficit. So your whole "not being in a caloric deficit is what caused the weight gain" is inaccurate in this situation.

FFF, I might have missed that part also. I'm going to have to go back and see where it says that exactly.

Fattymc, nice line with that monkey thing. Unfortunately it seems everyone in this conversation can actually bring substance to the table in one way or another, everyone but you.

Quoting my own post.

FFF, I went back to the PDF. Please show me where I can find what you said above in bold about the 100+ lbs.

I never said the PDF said that. That's from personal experience and knowing others who have gained 100+ lbs from these medications.

Mr_Knight

I never said the PDF said that. That's from personal experience and knowing others who have gained 100+ lbs from these medications.

Ah, so we're back to anecdotal bull****.

That's physically impossible to occur - if you don't take it in, you can't put it on. Period, full stop.

There is no such thing as a medication that prevents weight loss.

tracie_minus100

I don't want to be fat. Oh, how I hate being fat. Somedays I can't look in a mirror because of it. Somedays I get anxiety about just leaving the house because of it.
But I will be the first to admit that I was once full of excuses for being fat: It's in my genes. I have emotional issues stemming from being abused as a child and learned from a very early age that food could comfort me. I work full time and have 2 small children so it's hard to find the time to exercise. And so on and so forth.
I have finally reached a place where I know now that the excuses listed above are just that: excuses. They are obstacles, yes. They are challenges, yes. But are they insurmountable? NO.
None of us WANT to be fat. But yes, if you strip it down to bare bones, I am fat because of choices I have made in my life. I see that, I admit that. It can be hard to accept, but I have, and I am grateful that I have. However that doesn't diminish those challenges I face. It doesn't make the journey to being healthy any less difficult for me.
So basically what I am saying is that I do agree with those who say being fat is a choice. But it still hurts to hear that, even though I know deep down it's true.

lemurcat12

Getting super long!

i like what you written. the exam thing i guess makes sense but has instant consequences whereas overeating takes awhile and before you know it bam you are big. but nevertheless yes makes sense.
i guess for me I dont understand the frustration in others when they can see people are clearly struggling. Yes I guess also we have to be honest with ourselves too. I honestly didnt think i ate too much. I honestly didnt realise until i joined this website that all i had to do was eat a little less and exercise a little each day and i would lose weight. I had a goal, I achieved my goal and now want to do abit more. I see people struggling here everyday but dont get frustrated with them as they dont get it yet, it takes time for everyone. Just because someone moans doesnt mean they are not trying. Just because someone is impatient does make them a fool. I actually believe that some people who have made it have forgotten how it was for them in their own journey.

I agree with all this too.

One thing that I think can be difficult for people, especially if you have kind of a fatalist attitude, is that the benefits of eating less and moving more (or changing your diet to have fewer calories or just cutting out emotional eating, etc.) is that they take some time and aren't particularly apparent unless you are consistent for a reasonable period of time. On the other hand, the benefits of overindulging (or flopping on the couch) can be immediate. Behavior changes that favor long term over short term benefits can be tricky for humans, even if the long term benefit is understood. Once you believe it's not at all certain or inconsistent (might not happen for you) or otherwise don't really believe in it, it's incredibly hard to sustain.

Even after I KNEW I could successfully lose weight--had done it and maintained in the past--I sabotaged myself by trying to "get healthy" without any clear external measure, like weighing or keeping a record (I resisted getting on the scale). So I'd start and be doing well and feel good, but not have any clear evidence it was working since it takes longer to lose a size, and have a bad day or two and just figure, eh, I'll deal with it later. Once I started keeping track by just weighing myself and having a plan involving measuring, it helped a lot, but I still see why it can be really tough. (Like I said above, for me it wasn't worth it for a period of time, and I really don't see why I should be ashamed or feel bad about that. I focused on other things.)

FatFreeFrolicking

I never said the PDF said that. That's from personal experience and knowing others who have gained 100+ lbs from these medications.

Ah, so we're back to anecdotal bull****.

That's physically impossible to occur - if you don't take it in, you can't put it on. Period, full stop.

There is no such thing as a medication that prevents weight loss.

Did you gain 100+ lbs on antidepressants? Are you a doctor? Have you done research on how antidepressants affect fat oxidation and calorie expenditure? If not, you have no idea what you are talking about and therefore, your opinion is meaningless.

lemurcat12

No one is saying some people are more deserving of being fat or are less worthy. We are simply pointing out that some people didn't do this to themselves and that people gain weight for various reasons. When someone is stick-thin their whole life (I was a whopping 97 lbs) and then starts putting on weight when they begin a medication, it is because of the medication. Hell, if I knew antidepressants were going to cause me to gain 111 lbs, I would've never taken them in the first place.

There just seems to be a strange emphasis on distinguishing between a medication-related weight gain (I'm offended, because in my case it was not my fault!) and the types of struggles that SezxyStef wrote about, for example. And lots of people gain weight after being thin because their TDEE decreases. This can be related to medication, definitely, but it can be related to an injury, job issues, getting older, so on. Heck, my mother claimed that she couldn't quit smoking for years because it always caused her to gain weight. (Not saying it's the same thing.)

Again, I don't really see the point of buying into this idea of "fault" or "shame" for being fat anyway. There are reasons, and maybe the answer is unacceptable to you--having to eat super low calorie or give up needed medication certainly seems a bad set of choices--but if someone else is happy making a choice you wouldn't, why does that become blameworthy fatness? I think the point of the first comment (although I kind of think the guess that the "doctor" was House might be right) was that the much more common feeling of powerlessness is not accurate. That's less applicable to someone who has specific medical issues he or she is in the process of examining or working on as someone who just does nothing (or the same unhelpful thing over and over) and complains that she's just unlucky or naturally fat or whatever. I think that person does feel helpless and isn't. And unlike the comments here, I do feel sorry for that person (although I hate being felt sorry for myself, so feel kind of bad about that), since feeling powerless and entirely out of control as to what is happening to you is terrible.

Mr_Knight

Did you gain 100+ lbs on antidepressants?

No, because I realized at +20 pounds that I needed to put the fork down sooner. As soon as I did that, not only did weight gain stop, it reversed and became weight loss. No miracle or change of medication needed.

Gaining 10-20 pounds can happen by 'mistake' to pretty much anyone - but gaining 100 pounds is a choice. If you need to find external excuses for your situation, have at it - but it's not reasonable to expect other people to buy into the fantasy.

rileyleigh

I never said the PDF said that. That's from personal experience and knowing others who have gained 100+ lbs from these medications.

Ah, so we're back to anecdotal bull****.

That's physically impossible to occur - if you don't take it in, you can't put it on. Period, full stop.

There is no such thing as a medication that prevents weight loss.

Did you gain 100+ lbs on antidepressants? Are you a doctor? Have you done research on how antidepressants affect fat oxidation and calorie expenditure? If not, you have no idea what you are talking about and therefore, your opinion is meaningless.

Sounds to me like you've found a miracle drug that can cause an increase in fat stores in a body that is not consuming enough calories. This should solve the problem of world hunger. Seriously though, there are millions in Africa who do not have access to enough food to keep them alive. We should just send them a bunch of this magic drug that will cause them to gain weight, that way their bodies will have enough fat stores to keep them energized.

There is no such thing as a medicine that can cause your body to increase its fat stores when it is consuming fewer calories than it is burning during normal activities. Any such medicine would go against every scientific belief on energy, and would definitely have revolutionized the scientific community.

FatFreeFrolicking

Did you gain 100+ lbs on antidepressants?

No, because I realized at +20 pounds that I needed to put the fork down sooner. As soon as I did that, not only did weight gain stop, it reversed and became weight loss. No miracle or change of medication needed.

Gaining 10-20 pounds can happen by 'mistake' to pretty much anyone - but gaining 100 pounds is a choice. If you need to find external excuses for your situation, have at it - but it's not reasonable to expect other people to buy into the fantasy.

Too bad I was on a strict diet from a dietician and endocrinologist, eating 1200-1300 calories a day, logging religiously, and playing demanding sports. So maybe your weight gain came from stuffing your face, but mine certainly didn't.

"Possible mechanisms include blockade of histamine H1 and serotonin 2C receptors, carbohydrate craving caused by alpha-noradrenergic activity or histamine blockade, changes in the regulation of body fat stores by modulating neurotransmitter systems at the hypothalamic level, and recovery from clinical depression.2,5,9,10."

^The bolded fragment is why I put on 100lbs.

fangedneko

So maybe your weight gain came from stuffing your face, but mine certainly didn't.

Yes, it did.

fattymcrunnerpants

No one is saying some people are more deserving of being fat or are less worthy. We are simply pointing out that some people didn't do this to themselves and that people gain weight for various reasons. When someone is stick-thin their whole life (I was a whopping 97 lbs) and then starts putting on weight when they begin a medication, it is because of the medication. Hell, if I knew antidepressants were going to cause me to gain 111 lbs, I would've never taken them in the first place.

There just seems to be a strange emphasis on distinguishing between a medication-related weight gain (I'm offended, because in my case it was not my fault!) and the types of struggles that SezxyStef wrote about, for example. And lots of people gain weight after being thin because their TDEE decreases. This can be related to medication, definitely, but it can be related to an injury, job issues, getting older, so on. Heck, my mother claimed that she couldn't quit smoking for years because it always caused her to gain weight. (Not saying it's the same thing.)

Again, I don't really see the point of buying into this idea of "fault" or "shame" for being fat anyway. There are reasons, and maybe the answer is unacceptable to you--having to eat super low calorie or give up needed medication certainly seems a bad set of choices--but if someone else is happy making a choice you wouldn't, why does that become blameworthy fatness? I think the point of the first comment (although I kind of think the guess that the "doctor" was House might be right) was that the much more common feeling of powerlessness is not accurate. That's less applicable to someone who has specific medical issues he or she is in the process of examining or working on as someone who just does nothing (or the same unhelpful thing over and over) and complains that she's just unlucky or naturally fat or whatever. I think that person does feel helpless and isn't. And unlike the comments here, I do feel sorry for that person (although I hate being felt sorry for myself, so feel kind of bad about that), since feeling powerless and entirely out of control as to what is happening to you is terrible.

I agree with you.

Fat is always a symptom, never the actutal problem. It's important to recognize what the problem is and take steps to get over it. Cure the problem, cure the symptom.

culo97

Just watched a show on TV where this "Doctor" is saying that people are fat because they want to be. That is such BS. I don't know one person, including myself, who wakes up every morning and says...."Hey, I want to stuff my face and be fat, so that people can stare at me, and judge me". Some of these doctors are complete idiots. Being fat is NOT the problem with most people. It's just a symptom of the problem. Many people eat excessively because of emotional issues, depression, loneliness, to find comfort etc. It makes me angry that people are so quick to judge others without knowing their story or walking even a block in their shoes. Hate it!

I agree that people are quick to judge fat people without knowing a single thing about their situation. Usually they've made up their mind without spending one second to actually find out if it's true.

The worst part of the judgement is the negativity. They've already decided the person is "bad" or "less than" in someway. Whether it's true or not, the fat person wasn't even given a chance to be judged on who they are as a human being.

FatFreeFrolicking

So maybe your weight gain came from stuffing your face, but mine certainly didn't.

Yes, it did.

"Possible mechanisms include blockade of histamine H1 and serotonin 2C receptors, carbohydrate craving caused by alpha-noradrenergic activity or histamine blockade, changes in the regulation of body fat stores by modulating neurotransmitter systems at the hypothalamic level, and recovery from clinical depression.2,5,9,10."

^No it didn't.

Catter_05

This is a topic that's dear to my heart. I spent the better part of my life having Doctors tell me that it was my fault that I was fat. It wasn't until I was 325 lbs, and diabetic that I found a Doctor who said maybe there was another reason for it. I had a lot of test and eventually they found out that I had a tumor on my Pituitary (Cushings Disease). In short no matter how hard I worked at loosing weight (and I did) I would always gain weight as long as I had that tumor. The thing is that no one listened to me because they all said it was that I wasn't trying hard enough, and didn't want it enough. Working out 3 hours a day five days a week, and I gained weight, and it had to be what I was eating. Counting calories, counting fat, and countless weight loss efforts, and it still had to be something I was doing. It's all fine to say there are people who's choice is to be fat, but it's more harmful than you'll ever know when you assume people are doing that. I had the tumor out in 2012 and I dropped a lot of weight going from 325 to 245 in a year. My body is used to being fat now because it began when I was young but accelerated when I got pregnant in 2010. Since no one listened to me until 2012 I'll never know how long the tumor was there, and all because people and Doctors just wanted to dismiss me as Fat by choice. It is far kinder, and more productive not to jump to conclusions, and be supportive. For some people their weight isn't important, and it shouldn't be anyone's business but their own. For the others that are struggling mocking them and or stigmatizing them is not helpful, it's just destructive and spiteful.

Wow! That is a terrible story.

FatFreeFrolicking

I never said the PDF said that. That's from personal experience and knowing others who have gained 100+ lbs from these medications.

Ah, so we're back to anecdotal bull****.

That's physically impossible to occur - if you don't take it in, you can't put it on. Period, full stop.

There is no such thing as a medication that prevents weight loss.

Did you gain 100+ lbs on antidepressants? Are you a doctor? Have you done research on how antidepressants affect fat oxidation and calorie expenditure? If not, you have no idea what you are talking about and therefore, your opinion is meaningless.

Sounds to me like you've found a miracle drug that can cause an increase in fat stores in a body that is not consuming enough calories. This should solve the problem of world hunger. Seriously though, there are millions in Africa who do not have access to enough food to keep them alive. We should just send them a bunch of this magic drug that will cause them to gain weight, that way their bodies will have enough fat stores to keep them energized.

There is no such thing as a medicine that can cause your body to increase its fat stores when it is consuming fewer calories than it is burning during normal activities. Any such medicine would go against every scientific belief on energy, and would definitely have revolutionized the scientific community.

"Possible mechanisms include blockade of histamine H1 and serotonin 2C receptors, carbohydrate craving caused by alpha-noradrenergic activity or histamine blockade, changes in the regulation of body fat stores by modulating neurotransmitter systems at the hypothalamic level, and recovery from clinical depression.2,5,9,10."

^Proof that what I'm saying isn't bull****. If this doesn't shut you all up, I don't know what will.

fangedneko

So maybe your weight gain came from stuffing your face, but mine certainly didn't.

Yes, it did.

"Possible mechanisms include blockade of histamine H1 and serotonin 2C receptors, carbohydrate craving caused by alpha-noradrenergic activity or histamine blockade, changes in the regulation of body fat stores by modulating neurotransmitter systems at the hypothalamic level, and recovery from clinical depression.2,5,9,10."

^No it didn't.

Selective reading, quote mining, ignorance of thermodynamics, and ignoring rebuttals and clarifications doesn't change the fact that you were eating at a caloric excess.

rileyleigh

So maybe your weight gain came from stuffing your face, but mine certainly didn't.

Yes, it did.

"Possible mechanisms include blockade of histamine H1 and serotonin 2C receptors, carbohydrate craving caused by alpha-noradrenergic activity or histamine blockade, changes in the regulation of body fat stores by modulating neurotransmitter systems at the hypothalamic level, and recovery from clinical depression.2,5,9,10."

^No it didn't.

I could see how that could affect your body fat %, but still fail to see how that would force weight gain.... "changes in the regulation of body fat stores" does not mean that body fat stores are created regardless of the amount of energy available to your body. Regardless of what your body want to do to its body fat stores, if there are no excess calories there, it cannot magically create enough energy to make more body fat.

Its like trying to drive a car with no gas, or trying to light a fire with no wood, or trying to create a fat molecule with no calories.

FatFreeFrolicking

So maybe your weight gain came from stuffing your face, but mine certainly didn't.

Yes, it did.

"Possible mechanisms include blockade of histamine H1 and serotonin 2C receptors, carbohydrate craving caused by alpha-noradrenergic activity or histamine blockade, changes in the regulation of body fat stores by modulating neurotransmitter systems at the hypothalamic level, and recovery from clinical depression.2,5,9,10."

^No it didn't.

Selective reading, quote mining, ignorance of thermodynamics, and ignoring rebuttals and clarifications doesn't change the fact that you were eating at a caloric excess.

And you are trying to argue against research that showed certain antidepressants affect fat oxidation. You look ignorant right now.