Muscle, fat, density, weight, mass...oh my!

rjmudlax13

not insecure at all, i just think alot of what you brought up was just an issue of people taking the literal definition of everything, and you chalk this up to lack of understanding physics. all im saying is that doing this is a little useless, you could do it with almost any aspect of the human language. i suppose we are agreeing to an extent with one main difference; i dont see the point of making these little distinctions due to one or two variables that arent explicitly stated. i dont know, maybe you dont either, but then what was the point of the post in the first place. the difference between mass and weight has very little to do with losing weight, or health and fitness of any sort.

im not even sure what im trying to prove either at this point. all i know is this day is going by super fast because of this thread, which i will thank you for

Let's try again.

1) I am not arguing about the precise language to use. You are actually verifying my point about that.

2) The reason I started this thread is because there seems to be a trend these days (I'm not just talking about these forums) that when someone says "muscle weighs more than fat" they need to be corrected and even insulted. There are A LOT of people who do this in my experience (maybe I'm just in the wrong circles). I never really thought much about the statement. Like you, I understand all the nuances. So, I decided to challenge people who try to "correct" me by asking them to explain why it's "wrong." 75% of the people could not explain it accurately. And the funny thing is they would use the same old rhetoric such as the bricks and feathers example (the one all of our grade school physics teachers used) or the pound is a pound statement.

I just thought it was a stupid thing at first and never really cared too much about it. But I realize this dynamic leads to a lot of people giving in to social pressures to just "get in line" with what the "in crowd" believes in. So real aholes like Dr. Oz can take advantage of it and sell crap which not only doesn't work, but can hurt people in some cases.

I am just advocating that people take a little time to understand some basic scientific principles. Most of us took physics in high school and probably had the attitude that they were "too cool" to care about it. My hope is that if people care a little more about it, they will be less susceptible to believing misinformation and lies. Maybe it's hopeless, but if I can influence just a few people it would be a win for me.

3) It is not my intention to act as if I am all knowing and you are all stupid or whatever. I said I was an engineer just to give a point of reference to people. This was a mistake I suppose because engineers are stereotyped and arrogant and antisocial. I'm trying to be an engineer who is less of these things but maybe it's just in my blood as people suggest here.

rjmudlax13

I have no idea how a replying to "muscles weighs more than fat" with "a pound is a pound" is a tell tale sign that they don't understand the concept.

Again, if I am talking to a fellow engineer, I will say things like "titanium is lighter than steel." We both understand what that means because we both have a pretty high level of confidence in each other's understanding.

Look up in the sky. It's a bird? It's a plane? Nope, it's your credibility flying away.

How so? He's right.

He's right about what? That titanium is lighter than steel? No issue there.

The credibility goes out the window when it is okay to say things like "titanium is lighter than steel", but that's okay cause he is an engineer. Yet, somehow none of the rest of us grasp the fact that "muscle weighs more than fat".

That's not what I was saying. I realized the post you are referring to was very badly worded. I apologize. Read my last post. I tried my best to explain better.

reachingforarainbow

To the OP, I get your trying to show that what is thrown at us isn't entirely accurate.

I also understand that the reason that information is broken into a somewhat inaccurate, but simple way for people to understand. Honestly, I am sure your 100% right about everything you said, but the average person isn't going to know how to use that information.

The muscle weighs more than fat (with your extended blurb): people need to know there is a reason why we work out because a lot of humans are lazy (a lot aren't) but it gives them insentive to keep working out, even if they gain a pound or two. Also people should realize that losing a ton of weight fast, they're probably losing a lot of that weight/ mass whatever it is that you wanna call it, through water or muscle wasting.

yopeeps025

OP just write this off as a L. Move on.

lindsey1979

rjmudlax13 -- I totally hear what you're saying. But, you're banging your head against a wall.

There are more than a handful of posters here that will present a large variety of bs arguments, red herrings, strawmen, needless semantics, etc. Oftentimes, I think they think that they're being super clever, when they just look like they can't differentiate between pertinent facts and unimportant, peripheral details. Other times, I think they're purposefully muddying the waters because they get a kick out of that sort of thing. I think they're a type of troll essentially (or perhaps simply not that bright).

My guess is that it's a psychological issue more than anything. All you can really do is ignore them and engage with folks that appear to be genuine in their discourse. Trolls will be trolls.

xShreddx

Well said lindsey!

rjmudlax13

As a fellow engineer, let me give the OP some advice: STFU. You make the rest of us look bad.

And while you may not have tried to come off as pretentious, that was precisely the result.

How so?

yopeeps025

As a fellow engineer, let me give the OP some advice: STFU. You make the rest of us look bad.

And while you may not have tried to come off as pretentious, that was precisely the result.

How so?

rjmudlax13

To add to this as a linguist:

The reason why the incomplete statement "muscle weighs more than fat." Is understood by pretty much anyone even though no frame of reference is given is because of implication. Implication is an important part of human communication.

It's the reason why "I'm studying tonight." is a valid answer to the question "Do you want to go to the movies with me?" even though it's not answering the question at all. The "No, I can't, because..." part is left out because it is unnecessary for understanding the sentence because your brain can decipher the unspoken part by itself within a split second. The same applies to "Muscle weighs more than fat." Any interpretation except "...if they're both the same volume." wouldn't make any sense so that's the interpretation your brain chooses and that's how you understand it even though that part didn't get said.

The Japanese people are taking it even further, regularly just leaving out the complete subject of a sentence if they think it's obvious what the subject is.

Completely agree. I actually think this is the only response that has any value. Thank you for that.

lindsey1979

As a fellow engineer, let me give the OP some advice: STFU. You make the rest of us look bad.

And while you may not have tried to come off as pretentious, that was precisely the result.

How so?

You don't look bad to some of us, or make engineers look bad. Don't worry about it.

SrMaggalicious

The angle of the dangle is conversely associated with the heat of the meat.

LMFAO! Omg, winner-winner, chicken dinner!!!

amusedmonkey

The title of your topic is incomplete. It should have been: Lack of scientific reference in sentences when using the words muscle, fat, weight and mass. Therefore, I'm expressing my surprise using the incomplete phrase "oh my".

Liftng4Lis

Yay- another person giving engineers a bad reputation. As if people don't already find us socially awkward and abrasive enough.
(That last sentence had horrible grammar, but I don't feel like fixing it because I'm an engineer and therefore far superior to everyone, anyway.)

This^, and because I have dated one for the last 5 years and one for 3 years before that, (yes I did call them one's), I just want to confirm most of the time they are very socially awkward and (at least the men versions) need to find ways of being self important (this post). Trying to understand is like banging your head on the wall!

asdowe13

..

rjmudlax13

There are few things more annoying on the MFP boards than the "a pound weighs the same as a pound" correction (incomplete as it may be!). No one is actually confused on that point. Everyone knows what muscle weighs more than fat means, and it is correct. That we are talking about same volumes is implied. It would obviously make no sense (and be idiotic) for someone to say that a lb of muscle weights more than a lb of fat, so why assume that someone means that or is saying that. It's basically insulting or suggests that it's the person doing the correcting who doesn't understand how dumb that is, in that he or she thinks someone could actually be misunderstanding that. (Now, it's possible I'm overestimating the average intelligence of people, I've done that before, but in the absence of evidence of such vast stupidity, I think it's rude to assume it.) Similarly, a lb of me weighs the same as a lb of my sister, but it's still accurate to say that she weighs less than me. Also, helium and air, feathers and iron, etc.

What is especially annoying about the pedantic and unnecessary "no, a lb equals a lb" correction is that is misses the actual reason why the person explaining that muscle weighs more than fat is probably wrong. Not because muscle and fat are equal in weight (they are not, given the unstated understood aspects of the statement), but because that fact is almost certainly irrelevant to what is being discussed. The statement is typically made when someone is not losing weight and someone else says "maybe you gained muscle, muscle weighs more...." What is wrong with that statement is not that a lb = a lb -- what would that have to do with anything? -- but that there is no earthly reason to think that the person gained lbs of muscle in the short period of time that is usually being discussed, while eating at a deficit and often basically just doing some light cardio.

On the other hand, when people say that you can look better while being at the same or even a higher weight if you recomp and decrease your body fat percentage, because muscle weighs more than fat, they are quite correct.

I like this one too. I mostly agree except there are people who really don't know what they are talking about when they try to "correct" other people who say muscle weighs more... So as you said, not only are they not helping the person figure out how weight loss works but they are perpetuating, at best, confusion about the basic science. This is the real issue.

enterdanger

Bored with the responses, but I really like LotusAsh's Rockso the clown avatar. "I do cocaine." Great show!

rjmudlax13

Look, my accountant-y brain can appreciate your compulsion to ensure that people understand the science behind what they are talking about. I would love if people didn't get all glassy eyed and sleepy when I crooned about debits and credits and assets and liabilities. (Heck, I would love it if people just knew their basic times tables.) But at a certain point we have to understand that it's not going to happen and there's no point in fixating on it. The majority of people understand the very basic idea that one pound of fat is larger in physical dimensions than is a pound of muscle and that's the bottom line. After that, be like Elsa and

Good post.

Eh not really a compulsion. More of a passion. I try not to talk about it when I'm being social (Oh I set myself up for more Enginerd jokes huh...you're welcome Internets). I usually just give them a blank stare when they say something dumb and just move on to the next topic, but it's really hard. I guess if a person really wants to learn it they will let me know.

bennettinfinity

Meh, most people (I would think) understand all three statements you are "clarifying". Too me the OP doesn't really clear anything up that isn't common sense.

Actually, it is apparent that most people don't understand the difference between mass and weight.

If you find yourself on the ISS, or spending the weekend on the moon, the difference between mass and weight become more readily apparent. - even to non-science types.

On planet Earth, mass and weight are effectively the same (with negligible variations occurring in weight (but not mass) based on air pressure, distance from the Earth's center of gravity, etc.) - and since most of us live on the ol' blue marble, making the distinction, while more accurate, isn't really necessary.

The same with your fat vs. muscle example - since we're talking about the fat vs. muscle of an individual, it stands to reason that temperature and pressure variables are held constant and therefore there's no reason to mention them.

The primary function of language is to convey meaning and ideas. Simpler is always better, thus we need only convey relevant points... think about it in terms mathematics - you always present an equation in its simplest form.

lemurcat12

1) I am not arguing about the precise language to use. You are actually verifying my point about that.

2) The reason I started this thread is because there seems to be a trend these days (I'm not just talking about these forums) that when someone says "muscle weighs more than fat" they need to be corrected and even insulted. There are A LOT of people who do this in my experience (maybe I'm just in the wrong circles). I never really thought much about the statement. Like you, I understand all the nuances. So, I decided to challenge people who try to "correct" me by asking them to explain why it's "wrong." 75% of the people could not explain it accurately. And the funny thing is they would use the same old rhetoric such as the bricks and feathers example (the one all of our grade school physics teachers used) or the pound is a pound statement.

I just thought it was a stupid thing at first and never really cared too much about it. But I realize this dynamic leads to a lot of people giving in to social pressures to just "get in line" with what the "in crowd" believes in. So real aholes like Dr. Oz can take advantage of it and sell crap which not only doesn't work, but can hurt people in some cases.

I am just advocating that people take a little time to understand some basic scientific principles. Most of us took physics in high school and probably had the attitude that they were "too cool" to care about it. My hope is that if people care a little more about it, they will be less susceptible to believing misinformation and lies. Maybe it's hopeless, but if I can influence just a few people it would be a win for me.

3) It is not my intention to act as if I am all knowing and you are all stupid or whatever. I said I was an engineer just to give a point of reference to people. This was a mistake I suppose because engineers are stereotyped and arrogant and antisocial. I'm trying to be an engineer who is less of these things but maybe it's just in my blood as people suggest here.

Okay, this all seems reasonable to me.

Plus, I was able to post my own rant on the topic in this thread, which makes me like it for entirely selfish reasons. Sorry if it's been frustrating!