Re-Thinking Protein
LoneWolfRunner
Posts: 1,160 Member
Some food for thought...
http://www.forksoverknives.com/slaying-protein-myth/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=Newsletter082114
http://www.forksoverknives.com/slaying-protein-myth/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=Newsletter082114
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Replies
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I was raw vegan for over a year. Sometimes I think I should go back to being one or at least vegan.0
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I try to be plant-based...but not a whole lot of family support, but they are getting there...I need to be better myself...0
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Vegan propaganda, nothing more.0
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Ok...I guess we all choose whatever propaganda makes us feel comfy at night.0
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If it moos, clucks, oinks, or swims........I'LL EAT IT!!!!!0
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I have recently started eating this way about 90%. And I never felt better.0
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The author is an endurance athlete, assuming ultra marathoner. Not surprising that he is fine with lower protein amounts as runners needs carbs for energy. Ultra runners needs loads of carbs.0
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Agree with FunkyTobias. I didn't even read it, but there are no academic sources to give credence to what he is saying. And at the end (the only part I actually read), he mentions herbivores: "no one questions where they get their protein from." Well no, because as herbivores their bodies have evolved differently than carnivores' or omnivores'. Humans are by nature omnivores with environment dictating what can be consumed, but our bodies are still adapted to function on both sources of vegetation and meat. Herbivores don't CHOOSE to be herbivores.0
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Vegan propaganda, nothing more.
I actually thought it was a well written approach to how you can be healthy or even an athlete as a vegan. Being vegan is not for everyone and that is okay but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with being a vegan. If a person chooses to be a vegetarian or vegan and educate themselves on balanced nutrition then what's wrong with it? Over time science and experience mold what is considered normal and healthy. We used to be meat (often red meat), potatoes, bread, butter, & milk. Then it was add veggies to that. Then it was lean meat and veggies is the way to go. Now people are seeing you can be healthy without eating meat or animal products. I don't think one is superior over another simply different options people have.0 -
This entire documentary was funded by vegan companies. So of course they're going to bring this information across in the way that they have. Everything in excess will kill you in one way or another. Everything...You can get too much vitamin C, too much Iron, etc. Everything in large amounts is bad, which is why everyone stresses EVERYTHING IN MODERATION. You can live a long and healthy life by consuming animal meats and dairy, processed foods and the like if it's consumed in moderation and not in excess. If you have a medical condition that prohibits you from anything then that's a different story. My grandparents are in their 80s and I expect them to live for another 10 years and they are very healthy. And they're farmers...so they've consumed meat and dairy from the very beginning. Why are they still healthy and what's their secret? They eat SMART aka eating everything in MODERATION. Don't give up animal protein just because of this documentary, because animal meat has nutrients your body needs that plants don't have...0
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Yes.
My husband and I are not vegan. We do eat vegetarian most of the time. Occasionally he brings home a rotisserie chicken.0 -
Forks Over Knives blog... solid source.
From the blogWith respect to athletes, to my knowledge no scientific study has ever shown that consumption of protein beyond the RDA-advised minimum (10 percent of daily calories) stimulates additional muscle growth or expedites physiological repair induced by exercise stress.
Dude must not do much reading.
10 percent may be fine if your... I don't know, and ULTRA-MARATHONER who eats tons of calories and get get an adequate amount of protein at that level since he eats a ton of calories.0 -
Vegan propaganda, nothing more.
I actually thought it was a well written approach to how you can be healthy or even an athlete as a vegan. Being vegan is not for everyone and that is okay but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with being a vegan. If a person chooses to be a vegetarian or vegan and educate themselves on balanced nutrition then what's wrong with it? Over time science and experience mold what is considered normal and healthy. We used to be meat (often red meat), potatoes, bread, butter, & milk. Then it was add veggies to that. Then it was lean meat and veggies is the way to go. Now people are seeing you can be healthy without eating meat or animal products. I don't think one is superior over another simply different options people have.
A high protein diet is far superior over a low-protein vegan/veggie diet (assuming not supplemented) when aesthetic or strength goals are desired, though. You cannot fuel muscular growth or do as good of a job minimizing muscle loss while on a caloric deficit if you are not eating enough protein, and most vegans/veggies who have posted here asking about protein are usually asking for advice on how to meet protein requirements because they are simply not getting enough from their diet. Nothing against eating veggie/vegan if that's your thing, but protein is important and in this case I would highly advise anyone who is not regularly eating high sources of protein to supplement.0 -
Then you have not seen the growing number of strength athletes that are vegan...0
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Agree with FunkyTobias. I didn't even read it, but there are no academic sources to give credence to what he is saying. And at the end (the only part I actually read), he mentions herbivores: "no one questions where they get their protein from." Well no, because as herbivores their bodies have evolved differently than carnivores' or omnivores'. Humans are by nature omnivores with environment dictating what can be consumed, but our bodies are still adapted to function on both sources of vegetation and meat. Herbivores don't CHOOSE to be herbivores.
So you may or may not be right about the herbivore vs omnivore point but don't you think it's a bit unfair to dismiss an article without reading it? I am not suggesting the author is an expert but it is a decent article. While there may not be large numbers of studies on the health benefits of plant based diets I think it's a bit naive to dismiss it all together. Lots of things don't get studied that doesn't mean they are wrong or right. I don't think there's anything wrong with eating meat or not nutrition wise and would like to see people not be so dismissive simply because it's not their choice. Many cultures eat very little meat compared to the American diet.
There are documented health benefits of a plant based diet.
"Research shows that plant-based diets are cost-effective, low-risk interventions that may lower body mass index, blood pressure, HbA1C, and cholesterol levels. They may also reduce the number of medications needed to treat chronic diseases and lower ischemic heart disease mortality rates."
Below are some websites that also discuss benefits of a plant based diet.
http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/plant-based-diets/
http://health.usnews.com/health-news/articles/2013/01/07/plant-based-diets-a-primer
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/multimedia/transcripts/1602_benefits-of-plant-based-diets.aspx0 -
Then you have not seen the growing number of strength athletes that are vegan...
and chances are they are either supplementing quite a bit (which a lot of us do simply to meet our protein needs, and we are eating a standard omnivore diet) OR they are not making the kind of progress that they should because they are not consuming enough protein. If they eat at a caloric surplus, they will get a bit more protein but they will be gaining more fat than they do muscle. This happened to me while eating at a surplus (not on purpose, wasn't tracking macros/calories back then) and eating a regular omnivore diet - there were just too many carbs and fats instead of protein to help fuel muscular growth more than fat growth. Muscle is expendable according to the body, so if you are over-eating and eating low protein, obviously you will wind up fueling fat stores. If you eat enough protein for your body (and 10% of calories is very likely not enough even at a surplus) then muscle will utilize that protein. I've seen so many skinny-fat or chubby people lifting weights, and it's simply because they are not monitoring their diets properly. I'm in the process of losing fat myself, but I am monitoring what I am eating so I can ensure I eat enough protein to minimize muscle loss. Once I start eating less than 150g regularly, I tend to start looking and feeling softer.0 -
Nothing wrong with a vegetarian diet, but there are several unsubstantiated claims in this article. I can't find ANY reputable articles linking casein to cancer.0
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Agree with FunkyTobias. I didn't even read it, but there are no academic sources to give credence to what he is saying. And at the end (the only part I actually read), he mentions herbivores: "no one questions where they get their protein from." Well no, because as herbivores their bodies have evolved differently than carnivores' or omnivores'. Humans are by nature omnivores with environment dictating what can be consumed, but our bodies are still adapted to function on both sources of vegetation and meat. Herbivores don't CHOOSE to be herbivores.
So you may or may not be right about the herbivore vs omnivore point but don't you think it's a bit unfair to dismiss an article without reading it? I am not suggesting the author is an expert but it is a decent article. While there may not be large numbers of studies on the health benefits of plant based diets I think it's a bit naive to dismiss it all together. Lots of things don't get studied that doesn't mean they are wrong or right. I don't think there's anything wrong with eating meat or not nutrition wise and would like to see people not be so dismissive simply because it's not their choice. Many cultures eat very little meat compared to the American diet.
There are documented health benefits of a plant based diet.
"Research shows that plant-based diets are cost-effective, low-risk interventions that may lower body mass index, blood pressure, HbA1C, and cholesterol levels. They may also reduce the number of medications needed to treat chronic diseases and lower ischemic heart disease mortality rates."
Below are some websites that also discuss benefits of a plant based diet.
http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/plant-based-diets/
http://health.usnews.com/health-news/articles/2013/01/07/plant-based-diets-a-primer
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/multimedia/transcripts/1602_benefits-of-plant-based-diets.aspx
No, it's not unfair to dismiss an article without reading it when it is trying to provide facts without utilizing academic sources to back up the facts/ideas. If I were to write a paper for one of my psychology courses based simply on my opinion and beliefs, I would get a very low mark. Now use academic sources to back up and explain my reasoning and opinions, and do a good job of explaining how these sources are backing up my opinion, then I will get a good grade.
same thing applies to this article. It's very obvious that this is a biased article. So of course the author will write something up that says "eating a low-protein diet is totally fine! eat vegan and don't worry about your protein intake and you'll be fine!" If he had looked for articles that both support and dismiss his claims, and shared both equally without bias in order to let the reader make his or her own informed decision, then I would have read the article. But it did none of this, and by just skimming it it was clear to see that this is a highly biased, and if you will, propaganda-laden piece.
You are clearly taking what I am saying, and what others say, too personally. I am not saying don't eat vegan, I am saying don't eat low protein. If you get a truly adequate amount of protein in by supplementing while on a vegan diet, then more power to you.0 -
Vegan propaganda, nothing more.
I actually thought it was a well written approach to how you can be healthy or even an athlete as a vegan. Being vegan is not for everyone and that is okay but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with being a vegan. If a person chooses to be a vegetarian or vegan and educate themselves on balanced nutrition then what's wrong with it? Over time science and experience mold what is considered normal and healthy. We used to be meat (often red meat), potatoes, bread, butter, & milk. Then it was add veggies to that. Then it was lean meat and veggies is the way to go. Now people are seeing you can be healthy without eating meat or animal products. I don't think one is superior over another simply different options people have.
A high protein diet is far superior over a low-protein vegan/veggie diet (assuming not supplemented) when aesthetic or strength goals are desired, though. You cannot fuel muscular growth or do as good of a job minimizing muscle loss while on a caloric deficit if you are not eating enough protein, and most vegans/veggies who have posted here asking about protein are usually asking for advice on how to meet protein requirements because they are simply not getting enough from their diet. Nothing against eating veggie/vegan if that's your thing, but protein is important and in this case I would highly advise anyone who is not regularly eating high sources of protein to supplement.
I agree with you that protein is important and if someone is deciding to give up meat and or animal products then they will need to monitor their nutrition and probably supplement some things. One should not blindly become a vegan or vegetarian because they think they will suddenly be healthy.
I also agree with another poster that said anything in excess is bad and it's unfair to say people who eat meat will be overweight or unhealthy. I am not against people eating meat just want others to know you can be healthy if you don't eat it.0 -
True, marathoners have huge calorie intakes. Theoretically, 10% protein for someone with those levels of caloric intake would put them at a .8-1g/lb of body-weight.Forks Over Knives blog... solid source.
From the blogWith respect to athletes, to my knowledge no scientific study has ever shown that consumption of protein beyond the RDA-advised minimum (10 percent of daily calories) stimulates additional muscle growth or expedites physiological repair induced by exercise stress.
Dude must not do much reading.
10 percent may be fine if your... I don't know, and ULTRA-MARATHONER who eats tons of calories and get get an adequate amount of protein at that level since he eats a ton of calories.0 -
I've been vegan for most of the last 2-3 years with the except of honey. I always ate veggies, tracked my vitamins/minerals on cron-o-meter (like mfp but more in depth). I got light exercise couple times a week, was hydrated etc. Lost a couple pounds but my over-all health wasn't super great. then I decided to go plant based, no oils, low sugar, like mcdougall style. I felt like utter crap but I kept doing it for about 6 months because maybe it was "detox" I was eating 40-50g of protein a day, lots of potatoes and veggies.
I was always hungry and my hair started to thin, I had no energy, my mood was affected, and just over-all blah.
Now I don't think we need to all eat like body builders or whatever but meat has it's place in our diet and even now I only eat it a couple times a week.
It's great if you want to be vegan, or vegetarian or whatever great but it doesn't work for everyone. Just watching calories I've lost 14 pounds in the last 45 or so days. My ENTIRE time being a vegan mcdougall style, I lost 2lbs.
You'll also find people like mcdougall, campbell, esselsytn, doctor greggor, etc cherry pick the studies in their favor and you're only seeing one side of it.0 -
I read the article. It's a nice opinion piece meant to please the folks that agree with that line of thinking. Nothing more.0
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True, marathoners have huge calorie intakes. Theoretically, 10% protein for someone with those levels of caloric intake would put them at a .8-1g/lb of body-weight.Forks Over Knives blog... solid source.
From the blogWith respect to athletes, to my knowledge no scientific study has ever shown that consumption of protein beyond the RDA-advised minimum (10 percent of daily calories) stimulates additional muscle growth or expedites physiological repair induced by exercise stress.
Dude must not do much reading.
10 percent may be fine if your... I don't know, and ULTRA-MARATHONER who eats tons of calories and get get an adequate amount of protein at that level since he eats a ton of calories.
I'm a NOVICE cyclist and my TDEE is around 3600. So 10% would still be 90 grams of protein per day for me. I go for more, but I definitely think I would be just fine on 90 per day. Sorry, just elaborating on your point.0 -
Protein recommendations vary greatly from source to source.
I see people without sources claiming they are right, and he is wrong because of his lack of sourcing....uhhhhhh0 -
I personally know 3 elite ultra-marathoning athletes who actually have world records for their times/distances etc. They have come in at the 10% of several world class events... They eat meat. They also eat chocolate, and cake and cookies and ice-cream and all sorts of other things. Just because the vegan/raw thing works for this fellow does not mean it will work well for everyone or that it is the only thing that will work. People just need to do their best to be educated (which is hard considering there is an article to prove and disprove pretty much every theory lol) and do what works for them.0
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A guy who trains 25 hours per week isn’t exactly living the same lifestyle as a person who is lucky to train 2-3 + hours per week.
The author never revealed how much protein he eats per day; there was a mention of the RDA’s10% minimum, so let’s say that is what he eats. If he is working out 25 hours per week, that is about 215 minutes per day - if he is burning 10 calories per minute running (just a guess), that is 2,150 calories per day that I’m sure he is eating back (mostly in carbs?). So if his protein intake is only 10% (I bet it is higher), and he is eating around 4,000-5,000 calories a day, that is a decent amount of protein in real terms (100-125g, 400-500 calories worth) for a 47 year old guy that is 5’11 and 165lbs.
My conclusion – there is really nothing here that I can apply to my own eating habits because the author is a different species living in a different world.0 -
No, it's not unfair to dismiss an article without reading it when it is trying to provide facts without utilizing academic sources to back up the facts/ideas. If I were to write a paper for one of my psychology courses based simply on my opinion and beliefs, I would get a very low mark. Now use academic sources to back up and explain my reasoning and opinions, and do a good job of explaining how these sources are backing up my opinion, then I will get a good grade.
same thing applies to this article. It's very obvious that this is a biased article. So of course the author will write something up that says "eating a low-protein diet is totally fine! eat vegan and don't worry about your protein intake and you'll be fine!" If he had looked for articles that both support and dismiss his claims, and shared both equally without bias in order to let the reader make his or her own informed decision, then I would have read the article. But it did none of this, and by just skimming it it was clear to see that this is a highly biased, and if you will, propaganda-laden piece.
You are clearly taking what I am saying, and what others say, too personally. I am not saying don't eat vegan, I am saying don't eat low protein. If you get a truly adequate amount of protein in by supplementing while on a vegan diet, then more power to you.
I agree his article is opinion. I only meant to suggest that some of the info was good. I did misunderstand your point of view and see that you're more open minded than I interpreted from your first comment. My mistake. I wasn't trying to be argumentative.0 -
Nothing wrong with a vegetarian diet, but there are several unsubstantiated claims in this article. I can't find ANY reputable articles linking casein to cancer.
T. Colin Campbell and others have done extensive research on casein protein and diseases, most notably cancer.
I have mixed feelings on the subject. After reading Campbell's The China Study, I was motivated to go vegan. It lasted about 3 months. The food was okay, although I had occasional cravings for meat and dairy, especially cheese. But it started bothering me that I had to take a vitamin B supplement. I mean, if a vegan diet is so natural and healthy, then shouldn't a varied, whole food based vegan diet provide everything I need? I also started wondering about the validity of Campbell's claim that we don't need much protein. Face it, plant protein is hard to come by on a relatively low calorie diet. So is it true that we don't need much protein, or is it that vegans want to stick to plants and therefore rationalize a low protein diet?
I also have my doubts about meat eaters, particularly those who are to some degree engaging in body building. They are motivated to eat above average amounts of protein daily. I wonder how much their quest for protein shapes their opinions on dairy, saturated fats, and cholesterol.
There is a lot of conflicting evidence for both sides of the debate. Personally, I eat meat (mostly chicken) daily. I eat dairy daily. I take a whey supplement in the morning and a casein supplement before going to bed. I'll go back to being vegan if anyone ever comes up with conclusive evidence that veganism significantly improves health and longevity. In the meantime, I'll keep eating the way I am now and keep my fingers crossed.0 -
The point I wanted to make is that you can lead a strong healthy life-style without meat and without the excessively high amounts of protein that the meat producers want you to believe you need. His article was anecdotal...it never professed to be scholarly. It was based upon his own personal experience... and if you clicked on the links you would see success stories by all types of people and athletes, not just ultra-runners. His approach was not inflammatory or aggressive. In fact, I liked the fact that he recognized this issue between meat-eaters and plant-eaters has taken on the same incendiary characteristics as politics and religion. Although, I find this topic to actually be worthwhile as opposed to the other two,
I was not interested in stirring up arguments, but to me, the ability and willingness to explore alternatives to what is passed off as "gospel truth" by the food industry can be a healthy, wealthy and wise exercise.
Edited for grammar and skipped words.0 -
So you went vegan/vegetarian solely lose weight? Smart.It's great if you want to be vegan, or vegetarian or whatever great but it doesn't work for everyone. Just watching calories I've lost 14 pounds in the last 45 or so days. My ENTIRE time being a vegan mcdougall style, I lost 2lbs.
Glad you realize it's all about calories now.
This this, exactly this!My conclusion – there is really nothing here that I can apply to my own eating habits because the author is a different species living in a different world.0
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