Re-Thinking Protein

FaylinaMeir

I've been vegan for most of the last 2-3 years with the except of honey. I always ate veggies, tracked my vitamins/minerals on cron-o-meter (like mfp but more in depth). I got light exercise couple times a week, was hydrated etc. Lost a couple pounds but my over-all health wasn't super great. then I decided to go plant based, no oils, low sugar, like mcdougall style. I felt like utter crap but I kept doing it for about 6 months because maybe it was "detox" I was eating 40-50g of protein a day, lots of potatoes and veggies.
I was always hungry and my hair started to thin, I had no energy, my mood was affected, and just over-all blah.
Now I don't think we need to all eat like body builders or whatever but meat has it's place in our diet and even now I only eat it a couple times a week.

It's great if you want to be vegan, or vegetarian or whatever great but it doesn't work for everyone. Just watching calories I've lost 14 pounds in the last 45 or so days. My ENTIRE time being a vegan mcdougall style, I lost 2lbs.

You'll also find people like mcdougall, campbell, esselsytn, doctor greggor, etc cherry pick the studies in their favor and you're only seeing one side of it.

Hornsby

I read the article. It's a nice opinion piece meant to please the folks that agree with that line of thinking. Nothing more.

Hornsby

Forks Over Knives blog... solid source.

From the blog

With respect to athletes, to my knowledge no scientific study has ever shown that consumption of protein beyond the RDA-advised minimum (10 percent of daily calories) stimulates additional muscle growth or expedites physiological repair induced by exercise stress.

Dude must not do much reading.

10 percent may be fine if your... I don't know, and ULTRA-MARATHONER who eats tons of calories and get get an adequate amount of protein at that level since he eats a ton of calories.

True, marathoners have huge calorie intakes. Theoretically, 10% protein for someone with those levels of caloric intake would put them at a .8-1g/lb of body-weight.

I'm a NOVICE cyclist and my TDEE is around 3600. So 10% would still be 90 grams of protein per day for me. I go for more, but I definitely think I would be just fine on 90 per day. Sorry, just elaborating on your point.

rjanke

Protein recommendations vary greatly from source to source.

I see people without sources claiming they are right, and he is wrong because of his lack of sourcing....uhhhhhh

AmyG1982

I personally know 3 elite ultra-marathoning athletes who actually have world records for their times/distances etc. They have come in at the 10% of several world class events... They eat meat. They also eat chocolate, and cake and cookies and ice-cream and all sorts of other things. Just because the vegan/raw thing works for this fellow does not mean it will work well for everyone or that it is the only thing that will work. People just need to do their best to be educated (which is hard considering there is an article to prove and disprove pretty much every theory lol) and do what works for them.

Bry_Fitness70

A guy who trains 25 hours per week isn’t exactly living the same lifestyle as a person who is lucky to train 2-3 + hours per week.

The author never revealed how much protein he eats per day; there was a mention of the RDA’s10% minimum, so let’s say that is what he eats. If he is working out 25 hours per week, that is about 215 minutes per day - if he is burning 10 calories per minute running (just a guess), that is 2,150 calories per day that I’m sure he is eating back (mostly in carbs?). So if his protein intake is only 10% (I bet it is higher), and he is eating around 4,000-5,000 calories a day, that is a decent amount of protein in real terms (100-125g, 400-500 calories worth) for a 47 year old guy that is 5’11 and 165lbs.

My conclusion – there is really nothing here that I can apply to my own eating habits because the author is a different species living in a different world.

mommyrunning

No, it's not unfair to dismiss an article without reading it when it is trying to provide facts without utilizing academic sources to back up the facts/ideas. If I were to write a paper for one of my psychology courses based simply on my opinion and beliefs, I would get a very low mark. Now use academic sources to back up and explain my reasoning and opinions, and do a good job of explaining how these sources are backing up my opinion, then I will get a good grade.

same thing applies to this article. It's very obvious that this is a biased article. So of course the author will write something up that says "eating a low-protein diet is totally fine! eat vegan and don't worry about your protein intake and you'll be fine!" If he had looked for articles that both support and dismiss his claims, and shared both equally without bias in order to let the reader make his or her own informed decision, then I would have read the article. But it did none of this, and by just skimming it it was clear to see that this is a highly biased, and if you will, propaganda-laden piece.

You are clearly taking what I am saying, and what others say, too personally. I am not saying don't eat vegan, I am saying don't eat low protein. If you get a truly adequate amount of protein in by supplementing while on a vegan diet, then more power to you.

I agree his article is opinion. I only meant to suggest that some of the info was good. I did misunderstand your point of view and see that you're more open minded than I interpreted from your first comment. My mistake. I wasn't trying to be argumentative.

jim180155

Nothing wrong with a vegetarian diet, but there are several unsubstantiated claims in this article. I can't find ANY reputable articles linking casein to cancer.

T. Colin Campbell and others have done extensive research on casein protein and diseases, most notably cancer.


I have mixed feelings on the subject. After reading Campbell's The China Study, I was motivated to go vegan. It lasted about 3 months. The food was okay, although I had occasional cravings for meat and dairy, especially cheese. But it started bothering me that I had to take a vitamin B supplement. I mean, if a vegan diet is so natural and healthy, then shouldn't a varied, whole food based vegan diet provide everything I need? I also started wondering about the validity of Campbell's claim that we don't need much protein. Face it, plant protein is hard to come by on a relatively low calorie diet. So is it true that we don't need much protein, or is it that vegans want to stick to plants and therefore rationalize a low protein diet?

I also have my doubts about meat eaters, particularly those who are to some degree engaging in body building. They are motivated to eat above average amounts of protein daily. I wonder how much their quest for protein shapes their opinions on dairy, saturated fats, and cholesterol.

There is a lot of conflicting evidence for both sides of the debate. Personally, I eat meat (mostly chicken) daily. I eat dairy daily. I take a whey supplement in the morning and a casein supplement before going to bed. I'll go back to being vegan if anyone ever comes up with conclusive evidence that veganism significantly improves health and longevity. In the meantime, I'll keep eating the way I am now and keep my fingers crossed.

LoneWolfRunner

The point I wanted to make is that you can lead a strong healthy life-style without meat and without the excessively high amounts of protein that the meat producers want you to believe you need. His article was anecdotal...it never professed to be scholarly. It was based upon his own personal experience... and if you clicked on the links you would see success stories by all types of people and athletes, not just ultra-runners. His approach was not inflammatory or aggressive. In fact, I liked the fact that he recognized this issue between meat-eaters and plant-eaters has taken on the same incendiary characteristics as politics and religion. Although, I find this topic to actually be worthwhile as opposed to the other two,

I was not interested in stirring up arguments, but to me, the ability and willingness to explore alternatives to what is passed off as "gospel truth" by the food industry can be a healthy, wealthy and wise exercise.

Edited for grammar and skipped words.

jkwolly

It's great if you want to be vegan, or vegetarian or whatever great but it doesn't work for everyone. Just watching calories I've lost 14 pounds in the last 45 or so days. My ENTIRE time being a vegan mcdougall style, I lost 2lbs.

So you went vegan/vegetarian solely lose weight? Smart.

Glad you realize it's all about calories now.

My conclusion – there is really nothing here that I can apply to my own eating habits because the author is a different species living in a different world.

This this, exactly this!

lizarddev

Ok...I guess we all choose whatever propaganda makes us feel comfy at night.

Bro it is too each his/ her own. There is nothing that states that plant based or being vegan is better than meat eaters over all. I don't like propaganda from Blogs unless it is a trusted source and proof to back up the information. I commend anyone to follow his or her own plan to health. this food for thought is one persons opinion and not based on proof. These are just things to become more informed before people actually listen to a fad and not real proof. Some people actually may harm themselves more than they already have being over weight unless they consult a doctor and get the best plan for them however they eat or want to eat. Good luck in your endeavors.

Here are a few things to take a look where one was a study from a graduate student that did a study in Palm Beach college. (https://www.palmbeachstate.edu/honors/Documents/AndrewGerren_Sabiduria-Submission.pdf) where the study actual shows that vegans were more emotional distressed than meat eaters.

As vegetarian styles of eating become more popular among athletes, the risk of poorly planned diets leading to nutrient insufficiencies and deficiencies increases. Suboptimal dietary intakes of iron and zinc resulting in decreased nutritional status have been observed in athletes who have eliminated meat. Marginal iron or zinc status may negatively affect exercise performance. Full-blown iron or zinc deficiency will definitely have a negative effect upon exercise performance.
It is possible to obtain all essential nutrients by eating a completely plantbased diet. However, the planning and execution of the diet is critical to both the health and performance of an athlete. Practically speaking, because vegan diets are also typically high in fiber, it may be difficult for an athlete to consume enough food to satisfy nutrient and energy needs without feeling so full that exercise performance is inhibited. Athletes must learn that it is not sufficient to merely cut meats out of the diet; these foods contain essential nutrients that must be carefully replaced by adding other foods to the diet. If the decision to consume a meatless diet is not based upon moral or ethical principles, it may be more practical to encourage the athlete to include some meat in their diet. It is also important that athletes base their dietary decisions on scientific evidence, rather than on myths and misconceptions.

From Dr. Susan Kleiner - THE ROLE OF RED MEAT IN AN ATHLETE'S DIET (http://www.gssiweb.org/Article/sse-58-the-role-of-red-meat-in-an-athlete's-diet)

Another Quote from a sports medicine and nutrition doctor.

"If a student-athlete came to me and said 'I want to make vegetarianism a priority. Can you help?' I would bend over backwards to make recommendations," says Clark. "But no athlete has ever said that to me in my 20 years of working at Penn State. They say 'Tell me what to eat to achieve my desired results in the shortest period of time.'"

Penn State News Kristine Clark, Ph.D., R.D
(http://news.psu.edu/story/141357/2006/05/22/research/probing-question-how-healthy-are-vegetarian-athletes)

xmichaelyx

Without taking any stance on vegan vs. vegetarianism vs. meat-eating, Forks Over Knives is a terrible "report" based on bad science. In fact, the data they used actually shows the *opposite* of what the authors pretend it shows. http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/

There's a reason it was self-published as opposed to peer reviewed.

As a professional researcher, I wouldn't use content from their website as anything but yet another study in how to NOT do science.

Edit: I guess I might also use their website as a great example of "how to get gullible people to click stuff."

lizarddev

The point I wanted to make is that you can lead a strong healthy life-style without meat and without the excessively high amounts of protein that the meat producers want you to believe you need. His article was anecdotal...it never professed to be scholarly. It was based upon his own personal experience... and if you clicked on the links you would see success stories by all types of people and athletes, not just ultra-runners. His approach was not inflammatory or aggressive. In fact, I liked the fact that he recognized this issue between meat-eaters and plant-eaters has taken on the same incendiary characteristics as politics and religion. Although, I find this topic to actually be worthwhile as opposed to the other two,

I was not interested in stirring up arguments, but to me, the ability and willingness to explore alternatives to what is passed off as "gospel truth" by the food industry can be a healthy, wealthy and wise exercise.

Edited for grammar and skipped words.

Actually it is a good read to know what someone might think. No I am not aggressive but the way you are explaining your stance is that it is healthier to live that way than the other. Which in all reality its a combination of things that make it healthier. That may be the reason that people are taking it to heart and to each his/ her own but I am a meat eater and I eat veggies also. I like a variety of foods and food combinations but that doesn't mean vegans are healthier than me. One may choose and not choose a way of life. I am kinda neutral but will flush out blogs that are based on their own thoughts and not research. Thanks

lizarddev

Without taking any stance on vegan vs. vegetarianism vs. meat-eating, Forks Over Knives is a terrible "report" based on bad science. In fact, the data they used actually shows the *opposite* of what the authors pretend it shows. http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/

There's a reason it was self-published as opposed to peer reviewed.

As a professional researcher, I wouldn't use content from their website as anything but yet another study in how to NOT do science.

Edit: I guess I might also use their website as a great example of "how to get gullible people to click stuff."

You and I are in the same boat and I agree. Thanks and I posted a research form and one study from a graduate student at a university.
Thanks
Dr. G

Need2Exerc1se

If it moos, clucks, oinks, or swims........I'LL EAT IT!!!!!

Yikes! I swim.

geneticsteacher

T. Colin Campbell and others have done extensive research on casein protein and diseases, most notably cancer.

I did say reputable source. Drs. Campbell and Esselstyn are not on my most respected list.

I do agree with you - go with what works for you. I, personally, think protein requirements vary widely among individuals. I feel better with animal products in my diet.

I taught a nutrition class for years at a local university and dreaded it every year; one years eggs were bad and coffee was also. The next year, they were on the "good" list and something else was evil. Nutrition recommendations seem to change daily.

MelkaBielka

best answer to this entire thread I have read. It works for some people and not for others. Both sides are biased and we choose which side we best see ourselves reflected in. Eat what you can to stay healthy and happy, do what works and forget about what doesn't. You hit the nail on the head.

MelkaBielka

and since I dont know how to internet, I was referring to Jim180155's post.

kgeyser

The author attended Stanford and Cornell, provides links to performances of plant-based athletes, but doesn't provide links or citations to any of the medical or scientific claims he makes in his article. Seems legit.

No_Finish_Line

I am plant-based. Essentially, this means I don’t eat anything with a face or a mother. Animals find this agreeable. I’m also an ultra-endurance athlete.

stopped reading after he volunteered the fact he doesn't know much about biology.

plus i'd imagine protien requirements might be different for a distance athelete then those interested in gaining mucsle or even hanging onto it in a defecit