Its not how many calories, its WHAT you eat...

CheesyPoofs

I am training to be a power lifter... squatting, benching, pressing heavy weights of 300 lbs or more, etc...

My coach told me that for a someone doing heavy weight training, the amount of calories you eat is not what determines your fat composition. He basically said that its the quality of the calories that matters.

He said you can lift weights and eat a calorie surplus of lean meats and proteins, fruits, nuts and vegetables,... your weight will stay the same or even increase.. but your body fat will decrease.

By cutting out certain carbs like pasta, bread, etc.. and replacing them with fruits, nuts, and vegetables, you will train your body to burn energy more efficiently and use fat for energy..

This is known in the weightlifting world as "recomping"...

So if your maintenance calories are 2000, and you power lift and eat 2500 calories of the right foods, you will lose fat.

is this true, or is he wrong?

billylindsay

The mans an expert in his field so he's probably right

LisaGamerGirl

It sounds accurate to me! I mean, there are good fats vs bad fats and refined sugars vs natural sugars for example. I know that the body has a lot of trouble processing refined sugars and they may end up stored as fat. I would believe it and it's a statement that would make me very happy

Mirabilis

I think I'd go to a real dietician with some specialty in sports nutrition. I wouldn't know if your expert is really an expert or just someone who thinks he knows.

Lyadeia

It's a main topic on my mind because I seriously get annoyed with so many people talking about how it doesn't matter what you eat as long as you are under your calorie limit. Technically, this is true if your only goal is to lose pounds on the scale. But, in order to make yourself healthy or change your body composition, it is also very true that the quality of food you put in your body, not quantity, is also very important.

You can lose weight on the twinkie diet, for example, but you surely won't be lean and cut unless you cut that mess out and start eating veggies, lean meats, and whole grains. :flowerforyou:

CheesyPoofs

Well the importance of eating quality calories is a no-brainer... that isn't really why I started this thread.

The key to this topic:

Can you eat SURPLUS calories and lose fat, if you're lifting weights and eating only the right foods?

SURPLUS calories is the real question here..

ashley0616

I think that any time you are working that hard and eating the right foods, surplus or no, you will replace fat with muscle. So, to me, the answer to your question is yes. Eating healthy, natural foods and consistant, heavy physical activity is how people stayed fit for centuries before boxed foods, TV, cars, machines.....etc, etc, etc.

BoresEasily

That's a damned good question I would be curious what an expert has to say on the subject. I could definitely see that as being possible. Look at those that do P90x for example they eat a major surplus of calories and get leaner but their activity is also ridiculously high as well. I'd love to see what a nutritionist says about this. Someone find one STAT!

BoresEasily

I think that any time you are working that hard and eating the right foods, surplus or no, you will replace fat with muscle. So, to me, the answer to your question is yes. Eating healthy, natural foods and consistant, heavy physical activity is how people stayed fit for centuries before boxed foods, TV, cars, machines.....etc, etc, etc.

Uh, no.. A person that's eating at a deficit will not gain muscle. It's possible but from what I've read and heard it requires an obscene amount of protein.

BoresEasily

It's a main topic on my mind because I seriously get annoyed with so many people talking about how it doesn't matter what you eat as long as you are under your calorie limit. Technically, this is true if your only goal is to lose pounds on the scale. But, in order to make yourself healthy or change your body composition, it is also very true that the quality of food you put in your body, not quantity, is also very important.

You can lose weight on the twinkie diet, for example, but you surely won't be lean and cut unless you cut that mess out and start eating veggies, lean meats, and whole grains. :flowerforyou:

Great post yet again. I always love reading your posts, thank you.

tross0924

There's lots of factors here. Are you eating a surplus of your BMR or surplus after exercise? It would be possible for you to decrease your body fat % slightly eating a surplus of calories if the weight you gained was more muscle than fat.

Like, lets say you weigh 200 lbs and are at 50% body fat (extreme example but trying to make it simple). So you have 100 lbs Lean mass, and 100 lbs of fat. Now you gain 50 lbs. 40 lbs of that is muscle and 10 lbs is fat. You now sit at 250 total weight 140lbs lean and 110 lbs fat which is 44% body fat. So technically you decreased body fat 6% while increasing your total weight.

Also there has to be a certain point where even what he's saying wouldn't be right. It's not like you could eat 15,000 calories a day of chicken breasts and broccolli and expect to get ripped because your lifting. If you want your body to burn more fat than it builds you have to burn more calories than you consume . . . after you include your exercise.

What you eat is very important. Even more so if you're trying to increase muscle mass, but calories are still going to play a part in it.

johnnya2

If you are lifting in that amount, it really is using calories for energy. Protein may help repair and build muscle from a workout, but the simple fact is, if you eat 5000 calories a day and burn 4000, you will gain weight, whether it be 5000 calories of Twinkies, or 5000 calories of salmon. There are the other nutrients involved which help make something better for you (Salmon has protein and Omega 3, while 5000 calories a day of Twinkies will likely push insulin to unrealistic and unsustainable levels.

Muckley

Can you eat SURPLUS calories and lose fat, if you're lifting weights and eating only the right foods?

SURPLUS calories is the real question here..

Yes, you can eat surplus calories and lose fat, but only if that fat is being replaced by muscle. That's because muscle uses up a good deal more energy. Just sitting around, you're using energy. But if you've been doing weights, building muscle, you're using up more energy than normal.

You'll lose fat... but not necessarily weight. Gotta find a good balance depending on what you want. I wouldn't mind being my particular weight if it was muscle instead of fat, it's the fat that's the problem.

At least, that's my understanding of it. Could be wrong...

alantin

Well the importance of eating quality calories is a no-brainer... that isn't really why I started this thread.

The key to this topic:

Can you eat SURPLUS calories and lose fat, if you're lifting weights and eating only the right foods?

SURPLUS calories is the real question here..

I don't think so.
If that was true, body builders wouldn't need to periodize their diets the way they do.
They bulk (eat surplus calories) and train hard and progressively on off season to gain as much muscle as they can. Then, when the competition season gets near, they change their diet to have a deficit and lose the excess fat that they gained during the off season. This is why they are never as tight on the off season as they are in the competitions.
If it was possible to build muscle while losing fat, they wouldn't have to do this..

This isn't to say, that the quality of the calories isn't important. It is EXTREMELY important. They just gain some fat too regardless..

foxyforce

The mans an expert in hi
s field so he's probably right

this statement gets A LOT of people into trouble.

pkgirrl

I know this isn't a complete answer, but something to consider is the thermogenic effect of the foods you're eating. Typically with crap foods, like the said twinkies, have none. Whatever calories you eat from a twinkie just gets absorbed and packed on wherever your body deems it best. When you eat healthy fats, your body uses about 5% of the calories to digest them. With carbs it's about 10%, and with protein it's 30%.

So extreme example. If you eat 3300 calories of pure protein a day, your body would only use about 2200 of it for things OTHER than digesting. So when you net your intake with your thermogenic burn, it's like you only ate 2200.

Obviously there's a lot more at play here, but if you were on a very high protein diet, I don't see why you couldn't eat surplus and still lose fat.

CheesyPoofs

Its CRAZY that there are so many differing opinions on this subject!

It blows my mind that there really is no agreed upon answer, at least amongst the general population.

Either we as normal people are ignorant of the facts, or science really does not know the answer either...

I'm more confused now then before

Steph_135

I've basically been reading a book about this lately. I want to start lifting weights in 2011, and what is being said is very "true" in relation to the way I have been understanding things.

It's always bothered me that most of us here (and often me too) try to keep under our calories, when it is more important WHAT we eat. Sometimes I see people with public food logs, and see that they are eating 600 calories of one junky food as a meal, and they have hardly any other foods in their logs, which makes me sad.

alantin

Its CRAZY that there are so many differing opinions on this subject!

It blows my mind that there really is no agreed upon answer, at least amongst the general population.

Either we as normal people are ignorant of the facts, or science really does not know the answer either...

I'm more confused now then before

I wouldn't look for very enlightened opinions here since your question is way out of the scope of interests of a general MFP:er..
Instead, look up some basic body building material and you'll find a lot of useful information even though it isn't exactly what you are training for.
There is a lot of pretty heavy science behind the body builder's training programs, diets, supplements, and the steroids, they often use. It is very serious business and they do periodize their diets because they also gain fat while bulking up. It's common knowledge. it's a fact! Not an opinion..

I don't know why your trainer claims contrary to common knowledge, but I'm not buying it. I suppose that with the right genes, you might see that miracle happen in the beginning of your lifting career (a looooong shot!), but certainly not in the long run!

I would really love to hear an explanation if you can ask for one..


Ps.
Here is an article about body fat concerns from "www.gain-weight-muscle-fast.com", which, btw, is an excellent starting point for looking information about building muscle!

Eating to Gain Weight: Concerns About Body Fat

Unfortunately, eating to gain weight has a side effect other than muscle growth - you'll likely add a little body fat along the way. This is natural and should be viewed as part of the process.

Weight gain diets aren't a permanent nutrition plan (unless your goal is to sumo wrestle). They are short term plans used to bulk up. If your overall goal is the common one, to end up with a body big on muscle and low in body fat, your weight gain program is phase one.

Phase two will be your cutting phase. The good news is that the body fat you put on while eating to gain weight will come off quickly when followed up with a diet and program designed for getting lean.

Newly acquired body fat is generally the easiest to lose, it is that fat that we've had for years that is typically the sticking point.

If you are a naturally skinny person, beware of any irrational fears about body fat. It has been my experience that, for some reason, the people who should worry the least about putting on a little additional body fat (i.e. naturally thin people) seem to get the most freaked out by it. Unfortunately, many people trying to gain weight scrap their programs at the first hint of a little fat, irrespective of the corresponding muscle gains they make.

This is one reason (one of many) that you should not track your program only by the scales, you need to also track your body tape measurements and your body fat percentages. This is the only way to know exactly what you are gaining and where you are gaining it. It will help calm you down a little bit when you see that while your pants may be a little tighter, your biceps are exploding.

Why Not Just Eat Moderately, Gain Weight AND Avoid Putting On Body Fat?

This sounds like a super smart thing to do but it is actually a recipe for failure. It is one of the major reasons that even people who enjoy going to the gym often find themselves making no progress. They don't lose body fat and they don't build muscle because they never put their entire focus on either thing.

By attempting to do this, to accomplish all your goals at once, you won't be providing the body with the necessary nutrition to stay in a anabolic mode (growth mode) and build muscle. You will end up not building muscle, not gaining weight and not getting six-pack abs. At least you won't be achieving any of these things very soon.

Absolute Law: If you aren't eating to gain weight, you aren't going to be gaining weight.

Learn from pro bodybuilders here. They have two distinct phases of training: Bulking and Cutting. They bulk up (eating to gain weight, eating above maintenace), and then they cut the body fat (eating below maintenance and adding cardio).

Why? Because they know this is the quickest way to progress, the quickest way to get where they want to go, the way to be at their most impressive come contest time.

If you truly want to achieve your overall goals in the shortest amount of time, do not multi-task your fitness goals (see Weight Gain Plan: Factors for Success (Pt. 2) for more on why you don't want to multi-task your fitness goals).

All this is not to suggest that you should not be concerned with your body fat while eating to gain weight.

How Much Body Fat Is Acceptable?

This is difficult to quantify because of the relative inaccuracy of body fat estimations. Generally, you wouldn't want to start a weight gain program with a body fat percentage over 15-20 percent for a man or 25-30 percent for a woman and you would want to switch to a cutting phase if your percentage increased to that amount during your program.

However, due to the inaccuracy of body fat estimations, a look in the mirror is probably your best guide here.

While monitoring your program, noticing a larger gain in body fat than in lean body mass is a good reason to look at modifying your weight gain diet (lowering overall calories, upping protein ratio, etc.). Through experience will you get a good idea of just how much body fat gain is acceptable for you relative to lean muscle gains.

Generally though, you should expect at least 50% of your weight gain to come from muscle.

Some people can naturally build muscle without noticeable body fat gains while others (the majority) must tolerate some temporary gains in body fat. The more muscle you gain, it is likely the more body fat you will have to accept for additional gains.

But, trust me, accepting a little temporary body fat in return for a lot of muscle is a pretty good deal.

Source:
http://www.gain-weight-muscle-fast.com/eating-to-gain-weight.html

vandy29

Honestly.....from all I have read....if you are eating the right foods.....you will be under your calories....I mean...it is really hard to eat over 1200 calories a day when you are eating whole foods (mostly fruits and nutrient rich vegetables).......

NoAdditives

Well the importance of eating quality calories is a no-brainer... that isn't really why I started this thread.

The key to this topic:

Can you eat SURPLUS calories and lose fat, if you're lifting weights and eating only the right foods?

SURPLUS calories is the real question here..

Well, in order to build muscle you have to eat a surplus of calories. Whether or not you end up burning fat shouldn't be your concern right now. For most body builders, or even just those wanting to gain a serious amount of muscle, you build muscle first and then do the fat burning/toning after.

alantin

Honestly.....from all I have read....if you are eating the right foods.....you will be under your calories....I mean...it is really hard to eat over 1200 calories a day when you are eating whole foods (mostly fruits and nutrient rich vegetables).......

Are you serious?
I have never had any trouble eating my 2000-3000 Calories in good whole foods!

Ge0rgiana

I worked with a lady whose husband is a body builder. Basically, while he trains the only carbs he eats come from green beans. That's it. When she complains to him that she wants a 6pack (she's thin anyway... naturally... makes you ill, huh?) he just tells her to stop eating carbs and she'll get it. That's all I know. :happy:

Michelle_J

I have no idea. Just wanted to say hi........

TrainingWithTonya

Check out the book "Nutrition for Health, Fitness, and Sport" by Melvin H. Williams.

Gaining muscle and losing fat are a lot more complicated then just the standard calories in vs. calories out. Weight gain is typically a combination of both muscle and fat mass on a diet that provides a large calorie surplus. In order to build muscle, you only need an excess of about 15-25 grams of protein per day and anything extra over that will be stored as fat, even if it is protein and you are lifting a lot. However, if you are eating correctly to fuel the body and providing the required carbs, protein, and healthy fats while at a slight deficit but having that extra 15-25 grams of protein, you can lose fat while building muscle. It's not a quick fix though, and takes focus, dedication, and lots of patience. Most body builders and their coaches, however, aren't educated enough in the science of nutrition to realize the specific needs of the body so they tend to push protein because it is a "building block for muscle" not realizing that even lean protein can be stored as fat if it isn't needed.

If your goal is to lose fat while building muscle, I'd recommend sticking with the standard recommendations on here but adding in an additional 15-25 grams of protein (which is less then 100 calories, so you're still at a deficit based on the deficit MFP sets), and doing a strenuous resistance training program followed by 30 minutes of cardio 5 days a week.

Mrbackslap

Check out the book "Nutrition for Health, Fitness, and Sport" by Melvin H. Williams.

Gaining muscle and losing fat are a lot more complicated then just the standard calories in vs. calories out. Weight gain is typically a combination of both muscle and fat mass on a diet that provides a large calorie surplus. In order to build muscle, you only need an excess of about 15-25 grams of protein per day and anything extra over that will be stored as fat, even if it is protein and you are lifting a lot. However, if you are eating correctly to fuel the body and providing the required carbs, protein, and healthy fats while at a slight deficit but having that extra 15-25 grams of protein, you can lose fat while building muscle. It's not a quick fix though, and takes focus, dedication, and lots of patience. Most body builders and their coaches, however, aren't educated enough in the science of nutrition to realize the specific needs of the body so they tend to push protein because it is a "building block for muscle" not realizing that even lean protein can be stored as fat if it isn't needed.

If your goal is to lose fat while building muscle, I'd recommend sticking with the standard recommendations on here but adding in an additional 15-25 grams of protein (which is less then 100 calories, so you're still at a deficit based on the deficit MFP sets), and doing a strenuous resistance training program followed by 30 minutes of cardio 5 days a week.

Listen to this lady she knows her stuff :drinker:
And I totally agree on this.

BoresEasily

Another amazing and informative post Tonya, thank you. I was hoping you'd read that thread!

billylindsay

The mans an expert in hi
s field so he's probably right

this statement gets A LOT of people into trouble.

I just assumed he knew the fella to be genuine

musclebuilder

I am training to be a power lifter... squatting, benching, pressing heavy weights of 300 lbs or more, etc...

My coach told me that for a someone doing heavy weight training, the amount of calories you eat is not what determines your fat composition. He basically said that its the quality of the calories that matters.

He said you can lift weights and eat a calorie surplus of lean meats and proteins, fruits, nuts and vegetables,... your weight will stay the same or even increase.. but your body fat will decrease.

By cutting out certain carbs like pasta, bread, etc.. and replacing them with fruits, nuts, and vegetables, you will train your body to burn energy more efficiently and use fat for energy..

This is known in the weightlifting world as "recomping"...

So if your maintenance calories are 2000, and you power lift and eat 2500 calories of the right foods, you will lose fat.

is this true, or is he wrong?

The bottom line is you need to be in a positive energy balance to build muscle mass..There are no two ways about it. You are going to increase your bf if you want to build any significant amount of muscle. It does not mean it has to get out of control. That is where eating the right foods at the right times in the right amounts come in to play. You can also use mini cuts through out a year or so of a muscle gaining phase to help keep bf under control..Look at the approach used by the early modern bodybuilders.. Those guys would keep themselves at about 10-20lbs roughly above their contest condition. Basicly keeping themselves in the 8-15% bf range. And if you begin going over the high end of this bf% spectrum you cut calories and cut some bf until you are back torwards the lower end of that spectrum..Once you accomplish that you go back to building muscle.

Steph_135

Does anyone have any opinion about the 40-30-30 % theory? (40% carbs 30% fat 30% protein) It's something that's come up a lot for me lately. Cause 15-25 grams of protein seems a little low to me, based on what I've read.

Azdak

Check out the book "Nutrition for Health, Fitness, and Sport" by Melvin H. Williams.

Gaining muscle and losing fat are a lot more complicated then just the standard calories in vs. calories out. Weight gain is typically a combination of both muscle and fat mass on a diet that provides a large calorie surplus. In order to build muscle, you only need an excess of about 15-25 grams of protein per day and anything extra over that will be stored as fat, even if it is protein and you are lifting a lot. However, if you are eating correctly to fuel the body and providing the required carbs, protein, and healthy fats while at a slight deficit but having that extra 15-25 grams of protein, you can lose fat while building muscle. It's not a quick fix though, and takes focus, dedication, and lots of patience. Most body builders and their coaches, however, aren't educated enough in the science of nutrition to realize the specific needs of the body so they tend to push protein because it is a "building block for muscle" not realizing that even lean protein can be stored as fat if it isn't needed.

If your goal is to lose fat while building muscle, I'd recommend sticking with the standard recommendations on here but adding in an additional 15-25 grams of protein (which is less then 100 calories, so you're still at a deficit based on the deficit MFP sets), and doing a strenuous resistance training program followed by 30 minutes of cardio 5 days a week.

My understanding is that excess protein calories cannot be converted into fat, for all practical purposes. It suppresses fat oxidation so that any fat you consume is preferentially stored. So you end up in the same place (i.e. stored fat increases), it's just not a "conversion" process. The exception is if you try to cut out all fats--if fat intake is very low and accompanied by excess calories in protein or carbs, then the body will start the process of lipogenesis.