TMZ Ray Rice video
Replies
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How is this even a discussion? Can anyone answer the when it IS appropriate to hit your spouse, which struck me as a pretty odd question.
How about this: if they're mentally gone (on acid, hallucinating, severely ill, turned into a brain-eating zombie, etc.) and being dangerous to themselves or others AND your big boy words aren't working, you may physically detain them / defend yourself.
I don't believe there are any other reasons to hit a spouse. Also, not to sound old school, but guys don't get to hit girls. I don't care if that girl is actually a woman, five times my size, and can bench press me, it's just something I was raised to believe. Sorry if that makes anyone without a Y chromosome feel marginalized or inferior. I don't think you are. It's just the way I (and many others) were raised.
I agree with this, too. My late husband was 6'3" 220 lbs. His ex wife left scars on him when they were married. He never touched her.
Also, nice tat. That's my name.0 -
I've told my boys that if they ever think they are tough enough to punch a woman then the must be tough enough to go out in the front yard and punch me. It's not acceptable and they know that a good old fashion man beating is coming their way if they do.
Outside of a woman holding a loaded gun to my head and threatening to kill me I will never see a reason to hit her like Ray Rice did. There are many other options for a physically superior male (in most cases) to subdue a woman without knocking her out.
Ray Rice is a piece of *kitten*. If I ever hear of a man dragging my unconcious daughter out of an elevator I don't need to see a video to confirm that when i get in arms length of him he will suffer immense pain. Y'all can keep all that crazy talk about not seeing a reason for one person to ever hit another person. There are extremely valid reasons and Ray Rice is one of them.0 -
Hmmm...the NFL goes from the National Felon League to Not Finished Lying...:laugh:0
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I would roll around and smack the hell out of Rhonda Rousey and/ Gina Carano in the octagon.... Other than that Fantasy.. There is never a good reason for a Man to Hit a Woman provoked or not you can walk away...0
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Just wanted to add a few bits of info:
Janay Rice was also arrested for assault for the incident being discussed
They have a child together which may party explain the reluctance to leave/wanting to work it out
The child is even more of a reason to split up, are you serious? Let's stay together so next time Jr. can just watch Daddy punch Mommy out.0 -
Just wanted to add a few bits of info:
Janay Rice was also arrested for assault for the incident being discussed
They have a child together which may party explain the reluctance to leave/wanting to work it out
The child is even more of a reason to split up, are you serious? Let's stay together so next time Jr. can just watch Daddy punch Mommy out.
Have you ever been in an abusive relationship?0 -
FTR, I saw the video and Ray Rice's actions were inexcuseable and he should be criminally charged, PERIOD!
I'm done with that specific issue, but want to talk about a larger issue.
I still do not buy-in to the somewhat extreme philosophy of "a boy/man should never hit a girl/woman". There are limited circumstances where I feel that it's justified, and not just when it's life-or-death.
Point-blank, even a little kid can hit a grown man in a manner to do him harm... and NO, I'm NOT saying the grown man should hit the kid. What I'm saying is that some people use the faulty logic that because generic man outweighed generic woman by '#' pounds that she cannot physically hurt him. However, one must take care to meet force with reasonable force.
Enough with theory.. back to reality. Personally, I avoid physical confrontations whenever possible. As a 6'4" 250+# man, I know that the police and public-at-large will NOT give me the benefit of the doubt even if it's against a woman of considerable size/strength. I could have a swollen shut eye and broken tooth and she could have a single bruise, I would likely be the one arrested. It sucks, but it's true.
She could smack me hard enough to leave a huge bruise and I could retaliate by spitting on her. I would likely be the one arrested. It sucks, but it's true.
I really hope that people are also telling their daughters that they shouldn't hit either, regardless of the other person's gender. TV/movies make it look like it's AOK for a woman to slap a man or throw a drink in his face and there be no consequences. Again, NOT saying that that would justify a man hitting a woman, but nobody should hit another person without expecting to get hit back.0 -
I'm a survivor of domestic abuse, and never at any point in time is any form of abuse acceptable. While my ex never actually laid a finger on me in anger I had things thrown at me or broken around my feet while he screamed at me. The psychological abuse and economic abuse still impact me even now, just over 9 years later.
Please please please don't assume you understand what is going on in her mind and why she is still with him and defending him. It took me two years to get out of my abusive relationship, and during the relationship he spent so much time knocking me down and making me feel unworthy that I on some levels believed it. Abusers are manipulative, and they use it to their advantage at every turn. I had always said that I would never let a guy do that to me, and then it happened to me.
Pointing fingers, or saying you have no sympathy for her does not help, it only makes the abuser more powerful. The amount of shame you feel is staggering. I still feel shame that I let it happen, that I didn't do a better job of standing up for myself. Shame for living that way for any length of time with a child involved. Shame because when I finally got the nerve up to get the hell out I knew I was breaking up my daughters family. The fear of what would happen after I left was almost paralyzing, but I was lucky and had amazing support from family and friends.
I appreciate you sharing such a painful and upsetting situation. The woman is a victim and needs compassion. And the man needs help, because he can't control his anger. It is a very embarrassing situation for everyone involved, even those just viewing the tape. Just really awful. I'm glad you have a good support system.0 -
There are two legitimate reasons to strike another adult human being, regardless of gender:
1. Self-Defense/Defense of a Minor: If Pat is physically attacking or legitimately threatening Robin's health/safety (or children in Robin's care), Robin is justified in using force to stop Pat from being an imminent threat.
2. Informed Consent: Professional fighters give informed consent.. So do people in some alternative lifestyles; these generally set up very specific boundaries, and crossing those boundaries is NO LONGER STAYING WITHIN THE REALM of informed consent.0 -
Just wanted to add a few bits of info:
Janay Rice was also arrested for assault for the incident being discussed
They have a child together which may party explain the reluctance to leave/wanting to work it out
It is true that many times the woman is not innocent either, but two wrongs don't make a right.
I can also understand that women stay for many reasons including their children and finances.
But for the union to be of any benefit to the child, they both need counseling so their child does not grow up in a war zone thinking it's okay to hit and be hit.
Functional spouses in healthy marriages don't hit each other.
I agree with you. Just wanted to post that info because I saw lots of people say she should be in trouble/held responsible for her part and people saying how could she stay.
Gotcha0 -
Just wanted to add a few bits of info:
Janay Rice was also arrested for assault for the incident being discussed
They have a child together which may party explain the reluctance to leave/wanting to work it out
The child is even more of a reason to split up, are you serious? Let's stay together so next time Jr. can just watch Daddy punch Mommy out.
It took my mom 13 years to leave my dad.
Unless you've been in that situation, you don't know the psychology behind staying.
I was married to someone who regularly beat, berated, and cheated on me. It starts out gradual, maybe a push, or maybe it's just words making you feel small and insignificant. I had no family support (at least I thought that), until he was arrested one night for DUI with drugs and that's what did it. The week before he choked me nearly unconscious and I had thrown him out, but for whatever reason once he was locked up for something else it made it "ok" for me to leave. I packed up the kids and I left about 18 hrs after he was arrested.
Because of the violence I witnessed as a child and then later being abused as an adult, I suffer from CPTSD. I really hope the Rice family is serious about therapy and getting help, because I can tell you from first hand experience, when a child grows up in violence it impacts EVERY stitch of their development. To this day I cannot STAND IT when someone yells or raises their voice at me.0 -
never, ever hit a woman (or man), child, or animal.
in an unprovoked state, think about justifiably hitting someone, you can't .
It takes a bigger person to turn and walk away
+1
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Just wanted to add a few bits of info:
Janay Rice was also arrested for assault for the incident being discussed
They have a child together which may party explain the reluctance to leave/wanting to work it out
The child is even more of a reason to split up, are you serious? Let's stay together so next time Jr. can just watch Daddy punch Mommy out.
It took my mom 13 years to leave my dad.
Unless you've been in that situation, you don't know the psychology behind staying.
I was married to someone who regularly beat, berated, and cheated on me. It starts out gradual, maybe a push, or maybe it's just words making you feel small and insignificant. I had no family support (at least I thought that), until he was arrested one night for DUI with drugs and that's what did it. The week before he choked me nearly unconscious and I had thrown him out, but for whatever reason once he was locked up for something else it made it "ok" for me to leave. I packed up the kids and I left about 18 hrs after he was arrested.
Because of the violence I witnessed as a child and then later being abused as an adult, I suffer from CPTSD. I really hope the Rice family is serious about therapy and getting help, because I can tell you from first hand experience, when a child grows up in violence it impacts EVERY stitch of their development. To this day I cannot STAND IT when someone yells or raises their voice at me.
There is always more to it than telling a woman "just leave".
I'm glad you were able to finally leave and pray you find true peace in your life.0 -
Just wanted to add a few bits of info:
Janay Rice was also arrested for assault for the incident being discussed
They have a child together which may party explain the reluctance to leave/wanting to work it out
The child is even more of a reason to split up, are you serious? Let's stay together so next time Jr. can just watch Daddy punch Mommy out.
Have you ever been in an abusive relationship?
I was the abused child where my mother stood by and allowed it to happen for more than 8 years, so forgive me for having very little compassion for a woman who can't get her crap together and walk out the door at least for the sake of her own children. I'd die before letting anyone hurt my children, or hurt me in front of my children.0 -
Just wanted to add a few bits of info:
Janay Rice was also arrested for assault for the incident being discussed
They have a child together which may party explain the reluctance to leave/wanting to work it out
The child is even more of a reason to split up, are you serious? Let's stay together so next time Jr. can just watch Daddy punch Mommy out.
Have you ever been in an abusive relationship?
I have and my son was the reason I left. He wasn't going to grow up around that. :noway:0 -
I err to the side of the woman, but even a woman that size and the right sucker punch can injure a physically impressive man.
Definitely not saying it was justified in this case.
I do feel there is a point where even a vastly physically superior person is legally "justified" in protecting themselves, even if the force required to protect themselves might seem excessive.
First before you make ignorant statement learn more about the story... the report states he spit on her in the hall before entering the elevator.. then again in the elevator he spit on her and push her... she came after him like any person would and he sucker punched her......
apparently his father and mother didnt teach him right... you dont hit women.....period.....
you look to morals in today society and there you have it... seems like thugs are abundant... now lets see if the NFL will do something to his former teammate Terrell suggs who tried to pour bleach down the throat of his girlfriend and their son... and later dragged her along a moving car...
Last question is where is this womans father.... if any man did that to my daughter would be plain and simple he wouldn't be in any place to work again ... let alone in a situation to marry him..... the world needs more morals and less greed and money and thats what everyone seems to care about ...... money and fame and people put up and think its ok...
so to this poster the simple point is would you allow your daughter - mom- sister to have that done to ... and if you do your not a real man!!!0 -
"Why Does She Stay" Excerpt
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/opinion/paul-domestic-abuse/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
"She has no idea who she is anymore. Everything she thought she knew about herself has been stripped. She knows only the screams of condemnation. "You're no good. You're stupid. You're selfish. Who else could ever love you?"
Sometimes she stays because she can't afford to go. She's given up her life to be at home. To be a mom. To be a robot for someone who hurls insults and threats as soon as she attempts to do anything for herself. She couldn't possibly support herself, could she? Not financially. Not even emotionally.
What would her parents think? Her friends say? Her family do? No. She doesn't want them to see the pathetic mess she's become. At least that's what she thinks of herself.
Why do we sit back in judgment of her? Why do we ever say to ourselves, "Maybe she deserved it. Maybe she provoked him." Why do we give an abuser a pass and a victim incrimination?
Stop asking why she stays. Would it even make sense to you if you knew?
Start asking the real question: Why does he get to hit her? And why does nobody do anything to stop him?"0 -
If i was getting jumped by a pack of women yes imma hit back0
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If i was getting jumped by a pack of women yes imma hit back
Because its a life or death situation right?0 -
My wife was a domestic violence counselor. I have heard how things can go 'horribly' wrong. I have also had the same discussions with my wife about women hitting men and pressing buttons by getting in your face.
The difference between us and animals is that we have 'free will' and the ability to exercise it. If a person presses your buttons, you have the choice to remove yourself from the situation. You can either leave, or leave that person altogether. But Rice chose to not only stay with this woman, but eventually married to her. Which indicates that he chose to put himself in a position where this could be repeated again.0 -
I have also had the same discussions with my wife about women hitting men and pressing buttons by getting in your face.
The difference between us and animals is that we have 'free will' and the ability to exercise it. If a person presses your buttons, you have the choice to remove yourself from the situation. You can either leave, or leave that person altogether.
QFT0 -
My wife was a domestic violence counselor. I have heard how things can go 'horribly' wrong. I have also had the same discussions with my wife about women hitting men and pressing buttons by getting in your face.
The difference between us and animals is that we have 'free will' and the ability to exercise it. If a person presses your buttons, you have the choice to remove yourself from the situation. You can either leave, or leave that person altogether. But Rice chose to not only stay with this woman, but eventually married to her. Which indicates that he chose to put himself in a position where this could be repeated again.
Exactly.
Both the man and the woman have the choice to stay or leave.
In this particular case, they didn't have to get in the elevator together, or walk down the hallway together, or go out together etc. etc.
We can keep backing it up to the first time he/she was abusive, or the day they met.
Every time a choice was made to stay engaged in the battle or to disengage, walk away, cool off, go for counseling, break up...0 -
"Why Does She Stay" Excerpt
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/opinion/paul-domestic-abuse/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
"She has no idea who she is anymore. Everything she thought she knew about herself has been stripped. She knows only the screams of condemnation. "You're no good. You're stupid. You're selfish. Who else could ever love you?"
Sometimes she stays because she can't afford to go. She's given up her life to be at home. To be a mom. To be a robot for someone who hurls insults and threats as soon as she attempts to do anything for herself. She couldn't possibly support herself, could she? Not financially. Not even emotionally.
What would her parents think? Her friends say? Her family do? No. She doesn't want them to see the pathetic mess she's become. At least that's what she thinks of herself.
Why do we sit back in judgment of her? Why do we ever say to ourselves, "Maybe she deserved it. Maybe she provoked him." Why do we give an abuser a pass and a victim incrimination?
Stop asking why she stays. Would it even make sense to you if you knew?
Start asking the real question: Why does he get to hit her? And why does nobody do anything to stop him?"
Who knows he's hitting her if she doesn't tell anyone? And how can anyone stop him if no one knows? As a former abuse victim I can tell you it takes courage to be the one to rescue yourself you stepping away from the situation, telling someone and getting help to get away. And I was a child threatened when I did it. A grown woman with a child to protect can do it too. We don't give the abuser a pass, we ask the abused to stand up for herself. How can anyone else stand up for her if she won't stand up for herself first?0 -
"Why Does She Stay" Excerpt
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/opinion/paul-domestic-abuse/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
"She has no idea who she is anymore. Everything she thought she knew about herself has been stripped. She knows only the screams of condemnation. "You're no good. You're stupid. You're selfish. Who else could ever love you?"
Sometimes she stays because she can't afford to go. She's given up her life to be at home. To be a mom. To be a robot for someone who hurls insults and threats as soon as she attempts to do anything for herself. She couldn't possibly support herself, could she? Not financially. Not even emotionally.
What would her parents think? Her friends say? Her family do? No. She doesn't want them to see the pathetic mess she's become. At least that's what she thinks of herself.
Why do we sit back in judgment of her? Why do we ever say to ourselves, "Maybe she deserved it. Maybe she provoked him." Why do we give an abuser a pass and a victim incrimination?
Stop asking why she stays. Would it even make sense to you if you knew?
Start asking the real question: Why does he get to hit her? And why does nobody do anything to stop him?"
Who knows he's hitting her if she doesn't tell anyone? And how can anyone stop him if no one knows? As a former abuse victim I can tell you it takes courage to be the one to rescue yourself you stepping away from the situation, telling someone and getting help to get away. And I was a child threatened when I did it. A grown woman with a child to protect can do it too. We don't give the abuser a pass, we ask the abused to stand up for herself. How can anyone else stand up for her if she won't stand up for herself first?
If no one knows then of course no one is expected to step in. What the article was saying was that when people do know they are asking the wrong questions. The response often is "What did she do to provoke it?" or "why didn't she leave?" focusing on the victim rather than the abuser.
I commend you for having the courage and strength to leave. Not everyone is able to do that. I agree that there is little someone can do if the victim does not want help. But that wasn't the point of this. The point was basically that we need to be careful not to focus on just the victim's mistakes and overlook the abuser's role.
I agree that a mother has a responsibility to protect her children. However, many feel they are protecting them by staying. Not all abusers harm their partner in front of the children. If the abuser is the child's father they may fear that if they leave several things could happen:
-the abuser could get full or shared custody of the children allowing him to be alone with and possibly abuse the children and she would not be there to protect them
-the abuser could take (kidnap) the children or harm them when she tries to leave
-the children could be taken away and given to the abuser or foster care if she is not on her feet financially yet
In theory the courts would protect the children but custody/abuse cases often come down to who has a better lawyer and what can be proven. You can read the news on almost any day and see that one of the examples listed above has happened so the system doesn't always protect the children.
In addition, when a victim chooses to leave it is the most dangerous time for them so it isn't an easy choice. (as I am sure you know)0 -
"Why Does She Stay" Excerpt
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/opinion/paul-domestic-abuse/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
"She has no idea who she is anymore. Everything she thought she knew about herself has been stripped. She knows only the screams of condemnation. "You're no good. You're stupid. You're selfish. Who else could ever love you?"
Sometimes she stays because she can't afford to go. She's given up her life to be at home. To be a mom. To be a robot for someone who hurls insults and threats as soon as she attempts to do anything for herself. She couldn't possibly support herself, could she? Not financially. Not even emotionally.
What would her parents think? Her friends say? Her family do? No. She doesn't want them to see the pathetic mess she's become. At least that's what she thinks of herself.
Why do we sit back in judgment of her? Why do we ever say to ourselves, "Maybe she deserved it. Maybe she provoked him." Why do we give an abuser a pass and a victim incrimination?
Stop asking why she stays. Would it even make sense to you if you knew?
Start asking the real question: Why does he get to hit her? And why does nobody do anything to stop him?"
All domestic violence counselors will tell a woman ( usually, but can be a man as well) to have a plan before they leave, as this can be the most dangerous time for a woman and her children.
Again, it is easy for people on the outside to say "just leave, go to a shelter" and then blame the victim when she doesn't leave.
Okay, so she does get up and leave one day, goes to a shelter.
Then what happens? Who wants to take their kids to live in a shelter?
Was she employed or a stay at home mom? Does she have the skills/education to find a job that supports her and her children?
Sure, she may eventually get a divorce settlement that could include maintenance and child support, but that could take months or even years if it gets dragged out in court and even then he could refuse to pay.
(And I know there are plenty of men who have been forced into child support by the courts when they would just rather have the time with their kids- but that's for another thread).
So, how does she pay for rent, security deposit, new clothes, furniture, car and health insurance food, utilities, baby sitter, etc. etc.?
And we're telling her to make all these major decisions after she probably hasn't had a real say in her life for years.
If she can safely do it, she needs to seek legal advice to learn what her options are, especially in regards to finances.
She needs to find a good counselor who can begin to help her see the reality of her situation, begin to process the trauma and then determine what would be best for her and her children.
She needs to build up a support system of family and friends who will show her unconditional love.0 -
If she were a true gold digger, she'd use this video to divorce him and take everything.0
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If she were a true gold digger, she'd use this video to divorce him and take everything.
Not unheard of...0
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