Starvation mode

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vismal

I can't lose weight because of leptin.
I can't lose weight because I'm addicted to food.

Both excuses. Both you own. Both are a crutch. Both are sad.

If you don't examine the reasons why most people who try to lose weight fail at losing weight, then the problem will never be solved. That's not a crutch, that is reality.

The reality is that people can't lose weight because they cannot comply with the level of calories needed to lose weight. Sure things like leptin and adaptive thermogenesis play a role. Sure it might be harder for a former obese person to maintain weight then someone who was never obese. Hard does not equal impossible. People need to realize that the accountability is 100% their own. There are countless examples of people who have lost weight and maintained it despite any and all metabolic factors working against them. I also refuse to believe that every single person who loses massive amounts of weight will have a 20% "slower metabolism" then people who were never obese. There are too many exceptions in this thread alone to disprove that notion. I would say a 20% slowdown is the absolute worst case scenario. Sure it might happen to some, but even if it does, it doesn't make weight loss impossible, they just have to work harder.

maillemaker

Continuously stating that you can't succeed in weight loss because of it is not fine.

I don't think I have ever said that.

What I have said is that most people, between 80-95%, fail at long-term weight loss. There are scientific reasons for this.

Behavioral modification for weight loss does not work for most people, and there are scientific reasons why.

Jump to 48:00 for a scientific discussion. Also 50:30.

maillemaker

I also refuse to believe that every single person who loses massive amounts of weight will have a 20% "slower metabolism" then people who were never obese. There are too many exceptions in this thread alone to disprove that notion. I would say a 20% slowdown is the absolute worst case scenario.

I'm sure this is true. Not everyone is the same. There are people who have leptin diseases and end up unable to not gain weight. These are a very small group of people but you can see pictures of them in the video. Likewise I'm sure there are people whose bodies do not engage in protective mechanisms for fat stores.

But, Dr. Liebel references a very controlled study of over 100 people where they saw this over a 3-4 week period. And they have extrapolated this based on an NIH database of long-term weight loss.

I don't know if it happens to everyone. I know it happens to me as I am experiencing the symptoms and always have every time I have lost weight.

Sure it might happen to some, but even if it does, it doesn't make weight loss impossible, they just have to work harder.

This is correct. You can overcome all the problems through harder work and putting up with the discomfort. Unfortunately, less than 20% of people who attempt to do so succeed long-term, because the work is so hard.

MityMax96

leptin disease??
What is that, and how so??

lemurcat12

but it's still difficult to know what I should be doing to offset so-called "metabolic damage" so that I can actually eat normally, which is all I really want at the moment.

Work with your doctor and nutritionist. But contrary to this video that one poster is claiming a weird sort of significance for, at least one other study shows that metabolism will come back with normal eating over time and by working to retain LBM. I know one issue with people who have a history of yoyo dieting is that they tend to lose LBM with each diet, and that can be regained for sure. The thing you will eventually figure out is how to eat so that you can maintain, and if the level at which you must eat is lower than you'd like you can work on raising your metabolism back up. I don't think most dieters really focus on that afterwards. Vismal has written elsewhere about his efforts to do that, if memory serves.

My own goal is 5'3, 120 (well, I'm already 5'3), and I'm monitoring my metabolism while doing this and so far don't see any drops beyond what would be expected just from losing weight. As a result, my TDEE is higher at 148 than when I started, since I've of course added to my activity a lot.

Anyway, if this topic gives you anxiety (which I can understand) I'd recommend avoiding it.

Eudoxy

Almost everybody has to work at it. If it's so much harder for the person that has a 10-20% slower metabolism, if the few hundred calories extra for maintenance are seriously effecting quality of life, just eat them and carry a few extra lbs. or stay at top end of bmi. This alone shouldn't cause someone to go back to obesity.

Anyway it's a high quality problem if the solution is a 3000 calories of carbs day! Oh happy thread!!:happy: *

*j/k

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lolabluola

Continuously stating that you can't succeed in weight loss because of it is not fine.

I don't think I have ever said that.

What I have said is that most people, between 80-95%, fail at long-term weight loss. There are scientific reasons for this.

Behavioral modification for weight loss does not work for most people, and there are scientific reasons why.

Jump to 48:00 for a scientific discussion. Also 50:30.

So what you are saying is that you are scientifically destined to never succeed at weigh loss? And you have accepted that? You have accepted failure? And that's OK with you?

I guess as long as there is science explaining why you fail then it makes it alright. Why bother doing anything in life if someone says you will fail? Why bother being alive right?

I thought we were talking about most people - but that is just sad if there was no way to ever succeed

rosebette

How much would a person have to be overweight before weight loss would decrease that person's metabolism by 20%? For example, I was about 20-25 lbs. overweight (I weighed between 140-145) 5-6 years ago and lost that weight back then (give or take 5 lbs.). Would I now have to eat 20% less than my TDEE to maintain? So, as a 55 yo, 5'1.5", 120 lb. moderately active woman, instead of eating 1560 a day to maintain,would I have to limit to 1240? And if I were sedentary, I would have to eat closer to 1000 calories a day? If such is the case, then we are talking about some "metabolic damage" although the damage is not from "starvation mode" but from the condition of allowing oneself to become overweight.

Does the 20% apply only to people who are in the obese category, or also to those who are "merely" overweight? Could this explain my current plateau, since it would now make it almost impossible to eat at a deficit without netting substantially below 1200 calories.

Eudoxy

It only applied to obese people.

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rosebette

I'm maintaining on 1200, eating back exercise calories, but I'm also short and old, or I've plateau'd (haven't lost in 3 months even at that level). I have lost inches, though.

heybales

Reading through several pages of posts at once, caught several points that were attempting to be clarified.

The more recent studies did account for the loss in LBM effecting the metabolism. They compared the same people for metabolism based on LBM and FM prior and after reduction in weight and LBM. Also difference in chamber sedentary TDEE and free-living TDEE.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/heybales/view/reduced-metabolism-tdee-beyond-expected-from-weight-loss-616251

So the reduction they saw was based beyond what was known and expected.
The RMR lowered more than you might say required, the sedentary and free living TDEE lowered more than required.

But it also shows what prevented it when they started the diet with exercise (for these folks not doing any prior, their running was resistance training at the time), and even for the others, it was starting to recover.

The difference between the study participants and many folks doing their own diet.

Much bigger deficits. This was only 25% deficit for overweight class. Many eating 1200 (or perhaps honest 1500) from an initial sedentary TDEE of 2500 but upwards of 3000 with new exercise routine, are getting around 50% deficit.
And they keep it at that level for a long time, weight goes down, burn less in daily movement, but then eat less and exercise harder and/or longer.

Also, participants had lab measured TDEE's to base the eating level on, and exercise that was closely monitored.
So the fact the 2 groups with most suppression or metabolic efficiency improvement started to see recovery even while in the diet or eating at maintenance - it was lab measured maintenance.
Folks on here don't let up for any time rarely.

So no it doesn't happen fast, like in a week. But it also doesn't require 6 months or under 10% body fat or extreme deficit or extreme low level of eating.

It can happen much easier. And these were folks with no weight loss attempts or changes in prior 6-12 months. So metabolism as high as it wanted to be.

And no it should never be about this being an excuse for weight loss stopping - but it sure is a decent reason for many why it may make it harder.
We don't know what other stresses folks deal with in life, some truly awful. To have overweight as additional stress both mental and physical, and diet as stress on body, and watching diet as stress on mind, perhaps there is no need to have additional stress of needing to cut calories even further to keep losing weight.

For some it may not matter at all, easy as pie (bad phrase) and with good genetics maybe not even much of an effect.
But for others, than 200 less calories daily than what could be, could suck enough to add enough stress it's just bad enough to not adhere to.
And for those of us trying to get max benefit out of exercise, body is much more willing to make improvements when it's not in this state.
I did it 2 years ago when I thought I was accounting for exercise calorie burn decently enough based on prior years VO2max test. Sadly each workout was about 200-400 underestimated. Along with a reasonable purposeful deficit, that added up badly for the week, and weight loss stopped, performance suffered for months, and some intense cardio sessions dropped some LBM during a 6 wk period. At least got another VO2max test and discovered what had happened and corrected it, and performance improved and weight loss continued.

And it obviously doesn't need to be that way.

mommyrunning

Here's a study related to this. I wouldn't say it's a complete myth but I would say it is generally very misunderstood. Though I would not normally refer to wikipedia if you scroll to the bottom of the link it references more medical studies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation_response

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/65/3/717.full.pdf+html

jillybeansalad

Let me know when the leprechauns and unicorns arrive.

They have arrived

I... I love you.

missrubybub

fully agree and haven't seen any fat starving people
:laugh:

paws_and_whiskers

Im currently fasting and myfitnesspal will not give me a predicted weightloss calculation, just a "based on total calories you are not consuming enough blah blah blah" but no weight prediction. I am very disappointed as this gives me something to look forward to.

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