Using my back to squat when I'm tired
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It's looking pretty good in my opinion. EXCEPT for that little hip movement forward before you start the knee break and hip hinge. What is that? I would say DON'T do that.
That 105, what % of your 1 rep max is that?0 -
lol my trainer told me to do that little hip movement forward before I start because it will help me push my butt and hips back. but i guess we came to the conclusion that most trainers don't know what they're talking about (e.g., grip the floor with your toes lol). I actually have never tried just doing 1 rep, so I'm not sure. I've always just done 5x5.0
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but it's looking pretty good? that makes me happy
I've been trying to learn how to squat properly for like years now, and I'm happy it's finally starting to come together. Do you want me to upload anymore videos? Maybe one where I don't do that little forward hip movement at the start? Lol. Should I try to figure out what my 1 rep max is? I have no idea how to do that lol. I don't want to die or anything
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Okay... just a couple things I see.
Do not do Zercher Squats to "bring-up" your squat; that does not help the squat. You would be better off just doing some DB lunges and back raises to help with the squat before zercher squat. Zerchers give you STD's, just sayin'.
Knees rotating inward (knee valgus)... Your glutes control hip flexion and hip abduction on the eccentric. Since your legs are going inward (adduction) that means your glutes are weak and your adductors are overcompensating neither of which are good. Fix this, too much of this can rupture an ACL.
You do need to bring up flexibility and strength in your glutes, hamstrings, obliques, abs, low back. Honestly, if I were your trainer I would have you not squatting for 4 weeks to help build some strength and stabilization or at least not with a BB, goblet squat. At a minimum, switch to something like SL5x5 and just start with the bar and don't even add the 5lbs until you can get your form correct.
Trainer friend: A glute bridge prior to exercise (part of your mobility work) would have better glute activation than curling your toes. Last I checked, the glutes don't control your toes. You should push your knees out on the eccentric.
Agree with the narrowing of your stance recommendation, keep it shoulder width. Your adductors are already overcompensating, don't need to add fuel to the fire by going too wide.
Good Mornings, Rows, Pull-ups: Yes, the lats are important in controlling the weight and you need to improve your upper back strength. Good Mornings... if you can maintain good form with these then do them. Back Raises on a 45-degree bench for a few sets of 12-20 reps might be better given your training experience.
1-Rep Max (RM) No, you do not need to even think about a 1RM right now. I would say that based on the video your 1RM is not far off from where you're at there. Start with the bar and make small gradual 5lb increases, or even 2.5lbs, and as you get stronger and more confident in your lift; then perhaps take a shot at your 1RM. Again, read the StrongLifts5x5 plan.0 -
You see his knees collapsing? Really?
I need to watch again, I missed that.0 -
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yeah, that's a fight to correct sometimes, takes mindfulness.0
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yeah, that's a fight to correct sometimes, takes mindfulness.
It does for sure. But he definitely needs to make sure he's putting some effort into his posterior chain outside of squatting, not a ton but some. Also improving flexibility in his adductors could also help. Core strength...
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
You do need to bring up flexibility and strength in your glutes, hamstrings, obliques, abs, low back. Honestly, if I were your trainer I would have you not squatting for 4 weeks to help build some strength and stabilization or at least not with a BB, goblet squat. At a minimum, switch to something like SL5x5 and just start with the bar and don't even add the 5lbs until you can get your form correct.
That is what one my trainers told me actually. He made me a routine based around the core and the glutes. I have the notes if you are interested.
So yeah, I've been thinking about it for the last 10 days, and I sort of just created my own workout. I call it Darren's StrongLifts.
Darren’s StrongLifts + accessory work
Day 1
Glute bridge 3x15
Squat: 5x5
DB bench press: 5x7
Seated Row: 5x5
Alternating floor oblique twist x 15
Standing oblique twist x 15
x4
Day 2
Glute bridge 3x15
Squat: 5x5
Assisted pull-ups: 5x7
Sumo: 1x5
Deadbugs x 15
Ab pulldown x 15
Hanging leg raise x 15
x4
Sunday
KB toe touches x 15
Wall slides x 20
x3
Back extensions x 15
+ another 6 sets of whatever exercises
Foam rolling IT band, hip flexor, and thoracic extension
So yeah, that's the workout.
It's very similar to StrongLifts, but I've added much needed accessory work for both the glutes and the core. Think of it as 3x a week as well, with day one and two rotating. It's just that I sort of decided to add like an accessory work day at the end of each week.
I jog 5 minutes to the gym, do glute raises to fire up my glutes before I squat. Then, I squat 5x5 but only with the bar. Maybe in the new year I can start progressively loading weight. It will be like a fresh new start, just hopefully this time, my overall body is strong enough to squat heavy without knees collapsing. I end the workout with either working out my rectus abdominus or obliques.
On Sundays, I do back extensions like you said (also, when I do assisted pull-ups, I may start going for the wider grip, as to activate less biceps and more lats even though it will be harder), work out glutes and add another 6 sets of whatever exercises; anything I feel like, whether it be more glute exercises, bicep curls or dips, etc. etc. Finish off with foam rolling my IT band and hip flexor (for better squat flexibility), and thoracic extension (for better arching during bench press).0 -
I dunno, I would just do StrongLIfts 5x5 as written and then do your core work. An "A" workout could look something like...
-warm-up & active / dynamic stretching (do the glute bridges here to help with glute activation prior to squatting)
Squat 5x5
Bench 5x5
Barbell Row 5x5
*back extensions 3x 12-20
*hanging leg raises 3 x 12-20
You can always super-set the pull-ups with the Bench Press if you feel the need to do the pull-ups.0 -
Sam, add in cable pull throughs? What about some light (bar only) front squatting to help with building a stronger chest up position?0
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Sam, add in cable pull throughs? What about some light (bar only) front squatting to help with building a stronger chest up position?
I would say do Pull-Throughs or Back Extensions; it seems redundant to do both but that's just my opinion. Pull-Throughs are easier to cheat, for a beginner I would suggest back extensions / raises.
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Yeah, I replaced the pendlay rows with seated row, and overhead press with assisted pull-ups. Pendlay rows is a pretty easy exercise, I've done it before. It's just that I like the feel of a seated row better. Should I switch back to pendlay rows though? Will it make that much of a difference? And I've also tried overhead press before, but I really don't like it. I think it's a really difficult exercise to master, and I don't feel like putting in the time and effort to learn it when I can replace it with something else. I hope I don't sound lazy by saying this, it's just that it's taken me years to get to this point in my squats and I don't feel like putting in more time to learn overhead press. I'm just down to start lifting. That's why I replaced it with assisted pull-ups. If I don't replace it with assisted pull-ups, should I do standing DB shoulder press instead? Would that be better?0
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I don't do a lot of overhead pressing, but I really feel, if it is on the program, do the program. Or find a different program. You know? For me it's a tough lift because of my shoulder mobility. So for the next month I'm going to work REALLY hard on my shoulder mobility. I think it should be kept in.
Also, I think when it comes to efficiency the Pendlay Row can'y be beat, but it is a hard lift. I wouldn't replace a seated row with it, seated rows are good, but I think the dead stop and stability requirements of the pendlay are pretty awesome.0 -
Ok, I have no problem putting Pendlay Row back in place of seated rows, but for overhead press, if I HAD to replace it with something, what should it be? Because yes, I could take time to practice and get it down, but it will probably take a while, and I really want to just start progressively loading the weight (with the exception of squats). I've tried overhead press before, and it feels like it is forcing my hands into an uncomfortable position, putting stress on the wrists and whatnot (same as BB bench press, that's why I switched to DB). Also, I feel like I am doing it wrong, as it puts a lot of stress on my lower back. My trainer says that this is because my thoracic extension is weak, and thus, my lower back is overcompensating for this. Therefore, I should roll my thoracic extension. It's been about a year since I've tried overhead press, maybe I should try again? Maybe now my thoracic extension will be stronger. Maybe I'm just being stubborn... I just really don't want to overhead press, so... the same question remains: if I HAD to replace overhead press with something, what should it be?0
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I think it might be reasonable to replace the OHP with a BB with OHP with a DB while you work on those issues such as form, and wrist conditioning.
It's a push, I wonder if weighted dips and incline bench presses would cover most of what the OHP gives you? At least, since I don't do the OHP, that's what I'm banking on.
Sam would have greater knowledge here. 0 -
It's hard to say; I'm of the school of thought that until you have the experience under your belt to design your own program or edit an existing successful program, then you should do the program as written. I'm assuming you're a healthy individual that just needs to improve their strength.
I had a longer response but I decided to back-track a little. It seems like this thread is going in multiple directions.
- OP wants to use something like Stronglifts / Starting Strength
- OP also has a personal trainer or friend that is a personal trainer and lending help
- OP is editing existing programs to fit
I think at some point you need to narrow down your focus and choose one thing to do and go with it. I'm not trying to be mean here by any means so please don't take this the wrong way, but you're not experienced enough to edit an existing & proven program. When Bill Starr did 5x5 years ago he had a purpose for everything he put in there, same thing with Rip and Starting Strength, they have a reason for the way things are.
If your trainer friend is NASM certified in CES, CPT, or PES then talk to him about training in Phase 1 of the OPT model; you may need to start there and build some base strength & stabilization. If something else then see what it is about. If not, then just take SL5x5 or SS as is and make a run at it. Does your gym have the short Olympic Bar? If so, try benching and pressing with that and make weight adjustments accordingly. Does your gym have a swiss bar? That's another option for Pressing as it is a little more natural.0 -
Never seen a swiss bar before, interesting.
Is the a PL thing?0 -
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Yeah, it's pretty cool. I'd get it for home so my cat could stand on the bar while I bench.0
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Is THAT what the FTS means?!
sonofa...0 -
The advice to take a deep breath at the top of the squat and suck in your stomach is really useful because it takes lots of stress off your back.
I'd have to strongly disagree with the sucking in your stomach part. By filling your belly with air you'll have a stronger base and protect your spine. Can't do that if you are sucking in your stomach. Same procedure for deadlifts. Watch a video of a PL doing a squat, they are not sucking in their stomachs.
But don't take my word for it, these guys would know better.
From Dave Tate's Free Squat Manual
http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/powerlifting-articles/dave-tates-free-squat-manual/
"Belly full of air – breathe into you belly, not your chest. Look in the mirror – does you chest rise when you take a breath? If so, learn to pull that air into your belly. The reason is if you pull air into your chest, what happens when you breathe out? Your chest falls and the bar drifts forward."
https://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/38-articles/63-ten-training-myths-exposed.html
Brian Carroll, author of the 10/20/Life training book, helps you to weed through all the poor squatting technique advice, and improve your form, safety and gym results.
"While you’re sticking to the above cues, you should also be pushing your belly out, keeping it firm, and generating plenty of stiffness and tightness from head to toe."
http://www.muscleandstrength.com/articles/5-reasons-squat-sucks0 -
That's a good point, he of thunderous quads.
Darren, it's super easy to test this out. Do a rep with stomach in and your core braced, and then stomach out, diaphragm breathing with abs braced. Do it with a light weight though.
What you'll find is that during the lift with your stomach in tight you'll lack a significant amount of stability. At least, that's what happened when I tested it out myself.0 -
Ok guys, I'll drop the weight. Also, my trainer said to grip the floor with my toes. What do you guys think of this?
I've tried this, I actually feel it helps me engage my quads more. Personal preference I suppose, but this guy has a massive squat and he recommends it as well.
Brian Carroll, author of the 10/20/Life training book, helps you to weed through all the poor squatting technique advice, and improve your form, safety and gym results.
http://www.muscleandstrength.com/articles/5-reasons-squat-sucks
Here’s the list of cues you need to know before the next time you squat:
• Sit back into your squats, not down. Think “hip hinge.” That’s the key to a powerful squat.
• Grip the floor “like a monkey” to solidify your foundation when you’re ready to descend.
• Try to bend the bar with your lats. Pulling your elbows down and locking in your back will create leverage advantages that will totally blow your mind.
• Instead of looking down like so many so-called experts have been telling you, you need to be looking up. Get your eyes on the point where the wall meets the ceiling. This will both give you better leverage and promote a healthy squatting posture.
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »It's hard to say; I'm of the school of thought that until you have the experience under your belt to design your own program or edit an existing successful program, then you should do the program as written. I'm assuming you're a healthy individual that just needs to improve their strength.
I had a longer response but I decided to back-track a little. It seems like this thread is going in multiple directions.
- OP wants to use something like Stronglifts / Starting Strength
- OP also has a personal trainer or friend that is a personal trainer and lending help
- OP is editing existing programs to fit
I think at some point you need to narrow down your focus and choose one thing to do and go with it. I'm not trying to be mean here by any means so please don't take this the wrong way, but you're not experienced enough to edit an existing & proven program. When Bill Starr did 5x5 years ago he had a purpose for everything he put in there, same thing with Rip and Starting Strength, they have a reason for the way things are.
If your trainer friend is NASM certified in CES, CPT, or PES then talk to him about training in Phase 1 of the OPT model; you may need to start there and build some base strength & stabilization. If something else then see what it is about. If not, then just take SL5x5 or SS as is and make a run at it. Does your gym have the short Olympic Bar? If so, try benching and pressing with that and make weight adjustments accordingly. Does your gym have a swiss bar? That's another option for Pressing as it is a little more natural.
Okay. I really want to do StrongLifts, but I know that I don't have enough of a solid base to start. I had a trainer in the summer who told me the exact same thing (he looked at me squatting while holding a stick above my head and noticed that one glute was going down lower than the other), and then proceeded to show me all these glute and core exercises. I still have all the exercises written down, and I've been practicing some of them in the gym. First of all, I just want to get this out, but I am *kitten* stupid. This trainer told me that I should work 12 weeks or something just on strengthening my core and glutes. Stupid me, only caring about gaining muscle was just like: "yeah, I can just add a couple of these exercises to the end of my StrongLifts workout... I don't need to stop squatting or deadlifting. Actually, someone on MFP told me that as well. He was like: "yeah, if you want to strengthen your core and glutes, don't stop squatting and don't stop deadlifting!" Well... a lot that has helped me with... 4 months later, and my form still collapses when I add on weight. *kitten* *kitten* *kitten*.
So now that I know that I was just being stubborn, I can completely forget about StrongLifts for the moment. I talked to my trainer friend today (saw hanging up on his wall that he is NASM certified or whatever), and he said that yes, I should start training in phase 1 of the OPT model to work on stability. He says it takes about 4 weeks to complete. He was really busy, so he just quickly scanned through this thread and told me that I have to be careful about who I'm listening to and that a lot of the info here can be misleading. Which is true to some extent, there is just so much contradicting advice; everyone has their own say, and a lot of the times, it is based on their own experience; what might feel right or work right for someone, might be different for someone else. So up to this point, I'm still confused. Do I grip the floor with my toes, or do I not? I find that yes, it does help with balancing my glutes on descension, but it prevents me from pushing from my heels. And how do I brace my core without doing a stomach vaccum? I mean, I always think that bracing my core = sucking in my stomach, is it not? Or is it just holding in my breath without sucking in my stomach?
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For all of us, form collapses in some way when we get near maximal weights. I'm sure some of my deadlifts looked horrid earlier today when I was poking around over my 1RM. Don't let the quest for perfection prevent you from doing anything.
Do Stronglifts, follow the program.
That will bring up the places where you are weak. Just start at low weights and follow the progression. That program is made for stone cold newbies, so there are any pre-requisites, you know? I'd also suggest doing what I did, hire a trainer for a little bit and work on making that form "bulletproof."0 -
For all of us, form collapses in some way when we get near maximal weights. I'm sure some of my deadlifts looked horrid earlier today when I was poking around over my 1RM. Don't let the quest for perfection prevent you from doing anything.
Do Stronglifts, follow the program.
That will bring up the places where you are weak. Just start at low weights and follow the progression. That program is made for stone cold newbies, so there are any pre-requisites, you know? I'd also suggest doing what I did, hire a trainer for a little bit and work on making that form "bulletproof."
I have been doing StrongLifts (except that I replaced 2 of the exercises), and it has brought up the places where I am weak. So doesn't this mean that I should take 4 weeks off to work on stability for my core and glutes?
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I wouldn't. I also wouldn't replace 2 of the exercises. Stronglifts has 4 core exercises, so you... someone with 0 training in programming decided to roll your own. You took out two lifts that will do a lot for fixing core and glute issues.
You replaced them with less effective lifts. My suggestion. Start over with Stronglifts, and do the program AS IT IS PRESCRIBED.
Clear?
Listen, I understand, OHP is hard for me because I have poor shoulder mobility. So I'm working with my trainer, I'm doing stretching, and going to be bringing on a PT to fix that. I'm still doing the lifts, albeit at a lower weight.0 -
So up to this point, I'm still confused. Do I grip the floor with my toes, or do I not? I find that yes, it does help with balancing my glutes on descension, but it prevents me from pushing from my heels. And how do I brace my core without doing a stomach vaccum? I mean, I always think that bracing my core = sucking in my stomach, is it not? Or is it just holding in my breath without sucking in my stomach?
Gripping the floor isn't necessary, especially at this point. Once you have your form down it's something you can try. Then you can see if you prefer it, if not go back to your original style.
Breathing - try this now, you don't have to be under a bar. Take a deep breathe, but draw it into your belly, and expand your belly outwards. Now clench your abs hard pushing outwards, DO NOT SUCK IN YOUR GUT. Practice that until it feels natural. Then do it with the bar on your back. Breathe deep into belly, tighten everything up, descend, and on the way back up start exhaling if you have to. Some hold their breathe until they're fully upright. Good luck.0
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