On Taking Offense

La_Malfaisante

Kaelakcr

OP belongs on /r/iamverysmart.

I'm an English major. As such, I recognize that the way most people write is different based on the context. I'm not going to speak to you using high language and stiff prose on a forum. I also know that language evolves. People probably thought Shakespeare was an uppity asshat at first, making up crazy words like "upstairs", "zany", and "buzzer".

Also, take a second and read this: http://www.n2growth.com/blog/is-your-intellect-an-asset-or-liability/
I honestly think you could benefit from it.

This is all assuming that you aren't just a troll. If you are, then:

Mikkimeow

Op right now:

Kimdbro

--because "yolo, y'know"?

Here's a thought: If you only live once, why not learn a proper language? Such as English.

cmcollins001

Wait...so this isn't a post about football?

trogalicious

Alluminati

UsedToBeHusky

Way to take a hard line stance against the lowest hanging fruit. I'm gonna take a wild guess that you also have strong feelings about the Kardashians.

So much work to mock dumb teenagers.

^^^ That was what I was thinking.

OP, the truly intellectual already know that it is pointless to tell the stupid that they are stupid.

But let me walk away from this thread before I do something pointles...

Wait...

kathdela

1. There is no "proper" language, and for you to say that Enlgish is one is awfully ****ty
2. You're tryin' too hard, dude

Kaelakcr

George_Baileys_Ghost

Way to take a hard line stance against the lowest hanging fruit. I'm gonna take a wild guess that you also have strong feelings about the Kardashians.

So much work to mock dumb teenagers.

'Tis a God's truth!

Why only three score and seven minutes ago, I did take respite from my daily reading of The Waste Land to berate, most sternly, my daughter of one month and a half for yet still defecating into a disposable waste cloth! 'Twas a most pleasant and gentle victory!

DamePiglet

All them fancy words to say: "I don't know the difference between a blog post and a forum topic."

SaintGiff

Kaelakcr

All them fancy words to say: "I don't know the difference between a blog post and a forum topic."

And a thesis paper.

kathdela

Yo,

"For me, it is a cause of some upset that more Anglophones don’t enjoy language. Music is enjoyable it seems, so are dance and other, athletic forms of movement. People seem to be able to find sensual and sensuous pleasure in almost anything but words these days. Words, it seems belong to other people, anyone who expresses themselves with originality, delight and verbal freshness is more likely to be mocked, distrusted or disliked than welcomed.

The free and happy use of words appears to be considered elitist or pretentious. Sadly, desperately sadly, the only people who seem to bother with language in public today bother with it in quite the wrong way. They write letters to broadcasters and newspapers in which they are rude and haughty about other people’s usage and in which they show off their own superior ‘knowledge’ of how language should be. I hate that, and I particularly hate the fact that so many of these pedants assume that I’m on their side. When asked to join in a “let’s persuade this supermarket chain to get rid of their ‘five items or less’ sign” I never join in.

Yes, I am aware of the technical distinction between ‘less’ and ‘fewer’, and between ‘uninterested’ and ‘disinterested’ and ‘infer’ and ‘imply’, and all the rest of them, but none of these are of importance to me. ‘None of these are of importance,’ I said there – you’ll notice – the old pedantic me would have insisted on “none of them is of importance”.

But I’m glad to say I’ve outgrown that silly approach to language. Oscar Wilde, and there have been few greater and more complete lords of language in the past thousand years, once included with a manuscript he was delivering to his publishers a compliment slip in which he had scribbled the injunction: “I’ll leave you to tidy up the woulds and shoulds, wills and shalls, thats and whiches etc.” Which gives us all encouragement to feel less guilty, don’t you think?


There are all kinds of pedants around with more time to read and imitate Lynne Truss and John Humphrys than to write poems, love-letters, novels and stories it seems. They whip out their Sharpies and take away and add apostrophes from public signs, shake their heads at prepositions which end sentences and mutter at split infinitives and misspellings, but do they bubble and froth and slobber and cream with joy at language? Do they ever let the tripping of the tips of their tongues against the tops of their teeth transport them to giddy euphoric bliss? Do they ever yoke impossible words together for the sound-sex of it? Do they use language to seduce, charm, excite, please, affirm and tickle those they talk to? Do they? I doubt it. They’re too farting busy sneering at a greengrocer’s less than perfect use of the apostrophe. Well sod them to Hades. They think they’re guardians of language. They’re no more guardians of language than the Kennel Club is the guardian of dogkind.

The worst of this sorry bunch of semi-educated losers are those who seem to glory in being irritated by nouns becoming verbs. How dense and deaf to language development do you have to be? Hm? If you don’t like nouns becoming verbs, then for heaven’s sake avoid Shakespeare who made a doing-word out of a thing-word every chance he got.

He TABLED the motion and CHAIRED the meeting in which nouns were made verbs. I suppose, new examples from our time might take some getting used to: ‘He actioned it that day’ for instance might strike some as a verbing too far, but we have been sanctioning, envisioning, propositioning and stationing for a long time, so why not ‘actioning’? ‘Because it’s ugly,’ whinge the pedants. It’s only ugly because it’s new and you don’t like it. Ugly in the way Picasso, Stravinsky and Eliot were once thought ugly and before them Monet, Mahler and Baudelaire. Pedants will also claim, with what I am sure is eye-popping insincerity and shameless disingenuousness, that their fight is only for ‘clarity’. Oh, this is all very well, but there is no doubt what ‘Five items or less’ means, just as only a dolt can’t tell from the context and from the age and education of the speaker, whether ‘disinterested’ is used in the ‘proper’ sense of non-partisan, or in the ‘improper’ sense of uninterested. No – no, the claim to be defending language for the sake of clarity almost never, ever holds water. Nor does the idea that following grammatical rules in language demonstrates clarity of thought and intelligence of mind.

Having said this, I admit that if you want to communicate well for the sake of passing an exam or job interview, then it is obvious that wildly original and excessively heterodox language could land you in the soup. I think what offends examiners and employers when confronted with extremely informal, unpunctuated and haywire language is the implication of not caring that underlies it. You slip into a suit for an interview and you dress your language up too. You can wear what you like linguistically or sartorially when you’re at home or with friends, but most people accept the need to smarten up under some circumstances – it’s only considerate. But that is an issue of fitness, of suitability, it has nothing to do with correctness. There no right language or wrong language any more than are right or wrong clothes. Context, convention and circumstance are all.


I can’t deny that a small part of me still clings to a ghastly Radio 4/newspaper-letter-writer reader pedantry, but I – I fight against it in much the same way I try to fight against my gluttony, anger, selfishness and other vices. I must confess, for example, that I find it hard not to wince when someone aspirates the word ‘aitch’.



Haitch Eye Vee, you hear all the time now, for HIV. It’s pretty much nails on the blackboard to me, as is the use of the word ‘yourself’ or ‘myself’ when all that is meant is ‘you’ or ‘me’ but I daresay myself’s accent and manner is nails on the blackboard to yourself or to others too, in itself’s own way. Myself also mourns, sometimes, the death of that phrase I bade you upon pain of slapping to remember some time back, ‘willy-nilly’, do you remember? Fold it in your hope chest, I urged, or seal it in a baggie. Well you can take it out now. Willy-nilly. What happened there? Willy-nilly is now used, it seems, to mean ‘all over the place’; its original meaning of ‘whether you like it or not’ (in other words ‘willing or unwilling’) is all but forgotten. Well, that’s ok, I suppose. I don’t mind either that the word ‘meld’ is now being used as a kind of fusion of melt and weld, instead of in its original sense of ‘announce’. Meld has changed … that’s okay. There’s no right or wrong in language, any more than there’s right or wrong in nature. Evolution is all about restless and continuous change, mutation and variation. What was once ‘meant’ in the animal kingdom to be a nose can end up as an antenna, a tongue, eyes, a pair of lips or a blank space once evolution and the permutation of new DNA and new conditions has got to work. If the foulness of the Kennel Club mentality was operated in nature, just imagine … giraffes’ necks wouldn’t be allowed to stretch, camels wouldn’t get humps, such alterations would be wrong. Well it’s the same in language, there’s no right or wrong, only usage. Convention exists, of course it does, but convention is no more a register of rightness or wrongness than etiquette is, it’s just another way of saying usage: convention is a privately agreed usage rather than a publicly evolving one. Conventions alter too, like life. Things that are kept to purity of line, in the Kennel Club manner, develop all the ghastly illnesses and deformations of inbreeding and lack of vital variation. Imagine if we all spoke the same language, fabulous as it is, as ****ens? Imagine if the structure, meaning and usage of language was always the same as when Swift and Pope were alive. Superficially appealing as an idea for about five seconds, but horrifying the more you think about it.

If you are the kind of person who insists on this and that ‘correct use’ I hope I can convince you to abandon your pedantry. Dive into the open flowing waters and leave the stagnant canals be.

But above all let there be pleasure. Let there be textural delight, let there be silken words and flinty words and sodden speeches and soaking speeches and crackling utterance and utterance that quivers and wobbles like rennet. Let there be rapid firecracker phrases and language that oozes like a lake of lava. Words are your birthright. Unlike music, painting, dance and raffia work, you don’t have to be taught any part of language or buy any equipment to use it, all the power of it was in you from the moment the head of daddy’s little wiggler fused with the wall of mummy’s little bubble. So if you’ve got it, use it. Don’t be afraid of it, don’t believe it belongs to anyone else, don’t let anyone bully you into believing that there are rules and secrets of grammar and verbal deployment that you are not privy to. Don’t be humiliated by dinosaurs into thinking yourself inferior because you can’t spell broccoli or moccasins. Just let the words fly from your lips and your pen. Give them rhythm and depth and height and silliness. Give them filth and form and noble stupidity. Words are free and all words, light and frothy, firm and sculpted as they may be, bear the history of their passage from lip to lip over thousands of years. How they feel to us now tells us whole stories of our ancestors."

-Stephen Fry

HeidiCooksSupper

T'was as much a pleasure to read as I imagine it was to compose. This rigid prescriptivist rises and applauds you, OP.

One of my great regrets in life is that I am unable to complete Hofstadter's Anti-Intellectualism in American Life because it infuriates me too much to continue.

Another is that I was unable to finish Mann's Magic Mountain because I was exhausted after finishing the French passages. Perhaps Castorp's ennui was having its effect.

Revel in your pedantism.

April_KT

headofphat

Oh snap! Dis playa b trippin.

April_KT

BrianSharpe

Ah, OP drinks wine and quotes Baudelaire. The difference between a well education person and a pompous individual is how many obscure/ partially well known historical figures they can cite.

Tell me, does all your flannel and ill fitting English prose make you itch?

By any chance did you mean "well educated"?

kathdela

Ah, OP drinks wine and quotes Baudelaire. The difference between a well education person and a pompous individual is how many obscure/ partially well known historical figures they can cite.

Tell me, does all your flannel and ill fitting English prose make you itch?

By any chance did you mean "well educated"?

Did you really not know what they meant? Or are you simply pointing out a typo to distract from the actual point?

Mikkimeow

Ah, OP drinks wine and quotes Baudelaire. The difference between a well education person and a pompous individual is how many obscure/ partially well known historical figures they can cite.

Tell me, does all your flannel and ill fitting English prose make you itch?

By any chance did you mean "well educated"?

Did you really not know what they meant? Or are you simply pointing out a typo to distract from the actual point?

He must not know what I meant, for surely he cannot possibly be that nauseatingly fastidious for the sake of this thread... oh wait.

Fullsterkur_woman

DYEL?

AglaeaC

Just to be clear, so we all understand, is OP Will or the Harvard pompous person? Because my brain hurts from trying to figure it out by myself.

trogalicious

Just to be clear, so we all understand, is OP Will or the Harvard pompous person? Because my brain hurts from trying to figure it out by myself.

With pompous person addressing us... I'm leaning in that direction.

shankasaurus

Stephen Fry makes me feel things. Mostly naughty.

DenDweller

It is a mystery why educated people write in such fashion.

I know all my goesintos and I dot all my t's and cross all my i's, but I prefer to post while in the nude.

AglaeaC

Just to be clear, so we all understand, is OP Will or the Harvard pompous person? Because my brain hurts from trying to figure it out by myself.

With pompous person addressing us... I'm leaning in that direction.

Awww, I'd pegged him for having Will material...

AglaeaC

Just for fun, I'll throw in a quote from Eysenck's Fundamentals of Cognition, chapter 1: "Is texting having a damaging effect? Most of the evidence indicates that texting and the use of textisms have a positive effect. A good command of grammar and sentence structure is needed to communicate effectively via text messages. Texting provides useful practice in reading and writing (Crystal, 2008)."

And the research paper title is ""Txtng: The Gr8 Db8", Oxford University Press. I haven't read the paper itself, but I imagine one can find it very swiftly through a bit of googling here and there.

And finally, speaking to nobody in particular, I greatly admire people, who act without ego all the time. This little guy encourages his students to leave the ego at the door and me thinks it's nice advice: http://youtu.be/kYQl0YUj-Oc

Chain_Ring

Ever see the movie Good Will Hunting? This reminds of the scene where Will essentially ***** slaps the Harvard student who was trying so hard to impress the girl w/ his intelligence. Ha ha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azM6xSTT2I0