Having squatting issues - flat footed

zoeyzore

I'm a new squatter and having some problems.

1. When I squat, I feel the burn mainly in my quads, not my glutes. Is this a form issue or will it get better the more that I squat? I try to stick my bum out and push through my heels. I'm a newbie at this so can't go completely parallel yet. In pilates, the Plié squat does a better job at activating my glutes but I never see people at the gym doing these.

2. When I try to prevent my knees from going past my feet, I instantly fall backwards. I've even had my boyfriend stand behind me for balance and the moment he takes his hand off of my back, I fall backwards again. I'm extremely flat footed and actually find it easier to do squats while wearing heels, but I can't wear those at the gym. Does anyone else have this problem and is there a different sort of movement that gives the same results?

Any tips would be appreciated!

kshadows

Are you doing bodyweight squats or using dumbells or a barbell? If you can't get parallel, maybe lower your weight (if you're using it). I get a lot of burn in my quads when squatting because my quads are weak.

You should wear flat-bottomed shoes with little cushion (think: Chuck Taylors) It sounds like you might have weak quads to me...I had issues with the same thing. I'd lower your weight, work on your form, and then you should be able to squat properly (knees not in front of toes).

dbmata

video?

For point #1:
When I was squatting back in june, I was using mostly quad. My coach has had me on a real *kitten* buster of a program, focusing on getting the hams and glutes stronger and activated. Now when I squat, I can feel my *kitten* really grab on and get into it. So it's a matter of muscle usage there. Work those plie squats, some bench squats, do a BUNCH of GHDs, hamstring curls, jump squats, box jumps, and then work on form.

For now, think to yourself, it's not a rep if it doesn't go below parallel.

For point #2:
Your knees have to go past your toes after a certain depth, it's just a matter of physiology. Take a look at some of the starting strength writing regarding the squat. Make sure your stance is good and solid, feet rotated outward a bit, and those knees track in the same line as your feet. When you come up, make sure those knees don't fall in.

Sounds like it's form issues, might want to hire a trainer for a couple sessions to work specifically on form to keep from creating bad habits right now.

dbmata

You should wear flat-bottomed shoes with little cushion (think: Chuck Taylors) It sounds like you might have weak quads to me..

Naw, sounds like weak PC. He *kitten* isn't showing up for the fun.

cwolfman13

Lower your weight and work on your form. Back squats primarily target the quads, so there's not a whole lot of surprise there...you engage the glutes and hammies more going past parallel...if you're not even going parallel, you're not really going to engage them.

In RE to #2, I'm guessing your stance has your feet too close together and you're trying to keep your toes completely forward...widen your stance a bit and turn your feet out a bit...make sure your knees are tracking with your feet. When I squat, my knees line up pretty well with the front of my toes...they might go just slightly passed them, but they're lined up pretty good. It sounds to me like you don't have a good base stance.

I would also add that if you're completely new to this, it is likely you have a weak posterior chain...not at all uncommon. Drop the weight and work on form and building up the strength in your posterior chain.

3laine75

Stop trying to stop your knees going beyond your feet and you should be fine. A slightly wider stance might activate your glutes and hamstrings.

Chaskavitch

I've had a lot of luck doing bodyweight squats as low as I can to stretch and strengthen my hip flexors. Try squatting as low as you possibly can, like until the backs of your thighs are touching your calves, keeping your feet flat on the floor, and just holding it for a few seconds. I had to hold on to something to keep myself upright for a long time. It helped me feel more comfortable going low, and it strengthened the habit of going below parallel.

Don't try to keep your knees from going past your toes, and just put your feet where they feel comfortable. Don't worry about them being parallel or at a certain degree of angle, put them where it makes your knees and ankles feel good.

Edited to say - going below parallel in your squats makes it a LOT harder, and it also gets you in your glutes/hams way more, especially if you squeeze when you reach the top of your squat. I have a much harder time getting out of the pocket when I go below parallel with the same weight that I can easily lift if I only go to just above parallel. More effort, great workout

7aneena

I know exactly what you mean, I had/have the same issue
What people have said so far is true, if you can't go past parallel you will feel it mostly in your quads. You might have a weak posterior chain, I know I do. It is a form issue that could be because of limited range of motion, flexibility issue (mine is hip flexer issue sp?) This is what I found true about me, obviously it may not be the issue for you

It is a good idea to check with a trainer maybe or check your form in the mirror. What you said about squatting in heels, it works because your heels are raised, you can do that (without the heels obviously :laugh: ) by placing small (1-2lbs) weights on the floor and have them under your heels

Last thing that seem to help me for some reason is I hold on to something, squat, adjust my form so I'm balanced and comfortable at the deepest I can go, then I get up and squat again without having to hold on anymore

Hope this helps

adorable_aly

all the advice people have given is spot on.

Just wanted to add, if you're flat footed, you should see a specialist who can make insoles for your shoes, this not only will help your squats but will also mean you won't have as many back/hip/knee problems in later life good luck x

NextPage

I am not sure if this applied to your body but a trainer recently pointed out to me that really tight calves and reduced flexibility in my hips were keeping me from having the full range of motion I needed to get down as low as needed. I have really been concentrating on these areas and my range of motion has improved greatly and now I really feel it much more in my glutes and not just quads. I'm happy to say that my bum is no longer on the back of my thighs and by the new year I hope to rest a glass on it :laugh:

zoeyzore

"The *kitten* isn't showing up for the fun." That made me laugh. Awesome.

It does feel better to turn my feet out more. I was trying to keep them straight or turn them out without turning my legs (I looked rather ridiculous). I'll try to work on my form and bug one of the PTs at the gym to help me. I'll have to look up some videos for the other types of squats mentioned. Thanks for the responses!!

lizzardsm

I have a lot of issues with squatting too. My problem is that I have weak abductors - so when I squat, I lean forward way too much. When I've tried to adjust and sit up straight more, I start to fall. I also find wider stance squats, like goblet squats, much easier. I also feel squats mostly in my quads (so you might? have the same problem).

You shouldn't be turning your feet out while squatting. These videos are super informative on proper squat form (but super long): http://www.mobilitywod.com/2013/11/community-mwod-video-the-knees-in-squat/

Sam_I_Am77

Okay, this isn't an overly uncommon issue in women. Unfortunately stuff like being flat footed or over pronating your feet can lead to some internal hip rotation, knee valgus, etc and you can end up injuring your ACL. If you can take a video, then do this... Do an overhead squat with no weight, just arms over your head, feet pointed straight out. Have your boyfriend take a video from the front and side. If not, then I can only make some assumptions of what's happening and suggest the following.

Over pronating your feet could be a couple things and since you mentioned your quads are burning I'm guessing that your quad : hamstring strength ratio is way off-balance and you need to re-balance that before you hurt yourself, especially if you play any sports. I'm a huge fan of the barbell squat, I believe it's probably the best single exercise anybody can do but I'm going to suggest that you stop right now and focus on stabilizing and strengthening other muscle groups that need help. Aside from the injury risk associated with over-pronation of your feet if you're only activating your quads then there's little point in squatting.

Flexibility: Make sure you'r stretching pre / post workout your...
**Pre-workout use foam rolling and active-isolation stretching / post workout use static stretching
- Hip Flexors
- Calves
- Hamstrings
- Adductors
- Piriformis

Core exercises: Hold each for at least 20-seconds, add time as you improve (1-3 sets of each, suggest performing with no rest in-between exercises but no more than 90-sec's of rest)
- Single Leg Floor Bridge
- Plank (on your elbows) with hip extension: Basically a regular plank but you take one leg and lift up off the ground and hold it with the plank
- Superman (as an iso-hold): Lay on your stomach and you engage your core and glutes to lift your arms and legs off the ground and hold it

Suggested leg / lower body exercises: Don't have to do all, just 1 - 3 exercises for 12-20 reps (this is endurance stabilization)
- Reverse DB lunge with frontal plane balance: Basically do a reverse lunge and when you come up you bring one leg and hold it for 2 seconds (For the lunge portion, go back far enough to where your thigh is parallel to the floor, knee should touch the ground)
- Lateral DB Step Up with frontal plane balance: You may feel your adductors come into-play here
- Regular DB Step-Ups
- Single Leg Leg Curls: This may not fall traditionally into a stabilization category but this wouldn't be bad to use. To stay consistent with stabilization programming, follow the 12-20 reps, and follow a slow temp (2-sec hold, 4-sec eccentric).

Do this 2x to 3x week for 4 weeks. Then you can attempt to do a full squat again or perhaps even a box squat.

dbmata

You shouldn't be turning your feet out while squatting.

Wrong.

Rippetoe recommends a slightly wider-than-shoulder width stance, with feet pointed 30 degrees outwards. You may be less, or more, but there is a reason for this, it's so the biomechanics are kept kosher during the whole lift. It also allows you to move higher maximal weights due to proper technique and building a solid foundation.

runner475

You shouldn't be turning your feet out while squatting.

Wrong.

Rippetoe recommends a slightly wider-than-shoulder width stance, with feet pointed 30 degrees outwards.

+ 1. How are you going to squat with feet 90 degrees to your torso?
I'm with Dbmata. Feet have to point outwards and at angle convenient to make you feel there is a virtual chair you are trying to sit on. Head up straight, Chest high. Feel Strong.

lizzardsm

You shouldn't be turning your feet out while squatting.

Wrong.

Rippetoe recommends a slightly wider-than-shoulder width stance, with feet pointed 30 degrees outwards.

+ 1. How are you going to squat with feet 90 degrees to your torso?
I'm with Dbmata. Feet have to point outwards and at angle convenient to make you feel there is a virtual chair you are trying to sit on. Head up straight, Chest high. Feel Strong.

Yeap. I've read Starting Strength. I thought the same until I screwed up my knees and my physical therapist actively told me not to. PT said that for women, their hips are sufficiently wide enough not to need to. Not to mention these physical therapists who say the same http://www.mobilitywod.com/2013/11/community-mwod-video-the-knees-in-squat/ These PTs don't talk about gender issues but explain that it increases the likelihood of knees going in while squatting.

w734q672

You should wear flat-bottomed shoes with little cushion (think: Chuck Taylors) It sounds like you might have weak quads to me..

Naw, sounds like weak PC. He *kitten* isn't showing up for the fun.

Isn't he a she?

w734q672

You shouldn't be turning your feet out while squatting.

Wrong.

Rippetoe recommends a slightly wider-than-shoulder width stance, with feet pointed 30 degrees outwards.

+ 1. How are you going to squat with feet 90 degrees to your torso?
I'm with Dbmata. Feet have to point outwards and at angle convenient to make you feel there is a virtual chair you are trying to sit on. Head up straight, Chest high. Feel Strong.

Yeap. I've read Starting Strength. I thought the same until I screwed up my knees and my physical therapist actively told me not to. PT said that for women, their hips are sufficiently wide enough not to need to. Not to mention these physical therapists who say the same http://www.mobilitywod.com/2013/11/community-mwod-video-the-knees-in-squat/ These PTs don't talk about gender issues but explain that it increases the likelihood of knees going in while squatting.

Part of the argument also includes the shape of your femur. The head and neck of the femur have a large impact on how an individual should position their legs during a squat safely and comfortably.

jemhh

I've seen way more written recommending toes out than not. I would say look at pictures of people squatting for non-exercise reasons or try it yourself. I have dogs and when I am filling their food dishes, I squat in front of the dog food container while measuring it out. I've done it that way for years without thinking about it. Once I started squatting for exercise, I paid attention and, sure thing, my toes point out a bit (not drastically.) That's my body's natural squat position and it has served me well this far.

dbmata

You should wear flat-bottomed shoes with little cushion (think: Chuck Taylors) It sounds like you might have weak quads to me..

Naw, sounds like weak PC. He *kitten* isn't showing up for the fun.

Isn't he a she?

I missed an "r".

I meant to write: Her *kitten*.
She took it as The *kitten*.

She got my flow.

dbmata

You shouldn't be turning your feet out while squatting.

Wrong.

Rippetoe recommends a slightly wider-than-shoulder width stance, with feet pointed 30 degrees outwards.

+ 1. How are you going to squat with feet 90 degrees to your torso?
I'm with Dbmata. Feet have to point outwards and at angle convenient to make you feel there is a virtual chair you are trying to sit on. Head up straight, Chest high. Feel Strong.

Yeap. I've read Starting Strength. I thought the same until I screwed up my knees and my physical therapist actively told me not to. PT said that for women, their hips are sufficiently wide enough not to need to. Not to mention these physical therapists who say the same http://www.mobilitywod.com/2013/11/community-mwod-video-the-knees-in-squat/ These PTs don't talk about gender issues but explain that it increases the likelihood of knees going in while squatting.

Listen, I'm sure you've had great PTs, but that's a load of hogswallop. I'd also take anything with a CF WOD in the name with a massive grain of salt, because they movements for reps and not technique.

Knees going in while squatting is a form fault, and something you don't do. It's not a biomechanical issue, it your bad form. If you had better form, you wouldn't have gotten hurt.

You can't do a proper squat without a shoulder or wider stance, and your feet turned out to an angle that is proper for you and your load.

However, don't take my extremely researched and correct view on it.

Read this.
http://www.liftbigeatbig.com/2014/02/foot-position-in-squat-sports-medicine.html

I chose to post a blog because those seem a lot more accessible for folks who want to debate this.

w734q672

I've seen way more written recommending toes out than not. I would say look at pictures of people squatting for non-exercise reasons or try it yourself. I have dogs and when I am filling their food dishes, I squat in front of the dog food container while measuring it out. I've done it that way for years without thinking about it. Once I started squatting for exercise, I paid attention and, sure thing, my toes point out a bit (not drastically.) That's my body's natural squat position and it has served me well this far.

Correlation does not imply causation. Just because it works for you does not mean it will work for everybody. Squat position, again, is largely impacted by the anatomy of your femur, which is inherently different from person to person. Also, testimonials are not at all persuasive at all unless you do something that starts with C and end in fit lol

Sam_I_Am77

Generally speaking your toes should point out a little because when you squat you should actually push your knees out and if your toes are pointed out your knees "track" better and it's more natural.

However, I think everybody is missing some key information here. She is very quad dominant, to the a very noticeable degree. She's not able to engage her glutes, hips, or hamstrings effectively and her feet are pronating which causes a whole host of issues here. Unless her form is completely terrible which I doubt, and in the interest of injury prevention; she should take a step back and work to improve her deficiencies for a few weeks before resuming the Squat. Like I said above and injury prevention aside, if she's only engaging her quads then what's the point? She might as well just leg press.

dbmata

I'd add along with femur being an issue (because lever length ftw), you also have other physical issues like stomach size, flexibility, torso size... all those are going to dictate the degree to which your feet are placed in both width and outward turn.

BusyRaeNOTBusty

You shouldn't be turning your feet out while squatting.

Wrong.

Rippetoe recommends a slightly wider-than-shoulder width stance, with feet pointed 30 degrees outwards.

+ 1. How are you going to squat with feet 90 degrees to your torso?
I'm with Dbmata. Feet have to point outwards and at angle convenient to make you feel there is a virtual chair you are trying to sit on. Head up straight, Chest high. Feel Strong.

Yeap. I've read Starting Strength. I thought the same until I screwed up my knees and my physical therapist actively told me not to. PT said that for women, their hips are sufficiently wide enough not to need to. Not to mention these physical therapists who say the same http://www.mobilitywod.com/2013/11/community-mwod-video-the-knees-in-squat/ These PTs don't talk about gender issues but explain that it increases the likelihood of knees going in while squatting.

There is NO way I could squat with my feet forward. It just hurts my knees to think about it. And yes, my knees will go in while squatting but I work hard not to let them and do not increase weight until I can do it while keeping my knees in on a good track.

w734q672

I'd add along with femur being an issue (because lever length ftw), you also have other physical issues like stomach size, flexibility, torso size... all those are going to dictate the degree to which your feet are placed in both width and outward turn.

^Yesss

dbmata

However, I think everybody is missing some key information here. She is very quad dominant, to the a very noticeable degree. She's not able to engage her glutes, hips, or hamstrings effectively and her feet are pronating which causes a whole host of issues here.

It has been said, in the hushed whispers of history.
"Naw, sounds like weak PC. He *kitten* isn't showing up for the fun."

It has also been noted by scholars since the age of Charlemagne, "For point #1:
When I was squatting back in june, I was using mostly quad. My coach has had me on a real *kitten* buster of a program, focusing on getting the hams and glutes stronger and activated. Now when I squat, I can feel my *kitten* really grab on and get into it. So it's a matter of muscle usage there. Work those plie squats, some bench squats, do a BUNCH of GHDs, hamstring curls, jump squats, box jumps, and then work on form."

Her PC is either extremely weak (poss.) or not activating (obvious), or both... which I think there is a strong potential. She has to train them to activate.

runner475

You shouldn't be turning your feet out while squatting.

Wrong.

Rippetoe recommends a slightly wider-than-shoulder width stance, with feet pointed 30 degrees outwards.

+ 1. How are you going to squat with feet 90 degrees to your torso?
I'm with Dbmata. Feet have to point outwards and at angle convenient to make you feel there is a virtual chair you are trying to sit on. Head up straight, Chest high. Feel Strong.

Yeap. I've read Starting Strength. I thought the same until I screwed up my knees and my physical therapist actively told me not to. PT said that for women, their hips are sufficiently wide enough not to need to. Not to mention these physical therapists who say the same http://www.mobilitywod.com/2013/11/community-mwod-video-the-knees-in-squat/ These PTs don't talk about gender issues but explain that it increases the likelihood of knees going in while squatting.

2 Words - Engg Mechanics.
I don't know what your background is but think of your body as a machine that's pushing the weight down while you are squatting.
Not pointing your feet in slight outward direction is going to topple that weight forward as you start adding weight. I hope you are able to control it. I really do.

Good Luck.
And I'm out.

jemhh

I've seen way more written recommending toes out than not. I would say look at pictures of people squatting for non-exercise reasons or try it yourself. I have dogs and when I am filling their food dishes, I squat in front of the dog food container while measuring it out. I've done it that way for years without thinking about it. Once I started squatting for exercise, I paid attention and, sure thing, my toes point out a bit (not drastically.) That's my body's natural squat position and it has served me well this far.

Correlation does not imply causation. Just because it works for you does not mean it will work for everybody. Squat position, again, is largely impacted by the anatomy of your femur, which is inherently different from person to person. Also, testimonials are not at all persuasive at all unless you do something that starts with C and end in fit lol

Not really sure why you are quoting me when I'm not the first and certainly not the only to comment on what works for me. I recommended just trying to squat naturally in order for the OP to determine her body's natural squat position. I can't really figure out if you are trying to dispute that advice, say that only toes out is okay, or just make a slam about Crossfit (which I've never done so...what's your point?)

zoeyzore

Ok, so I've read through all of the comments. Ahhh so much debating! I will say that keeping my feet straight forward puts more pressure on my knees. Some suggest I have a weak PC. Should I not be squatting until I work on strengthening that?

http://trainheroic.com/11-posterior-chain-exercises/ - are these exercises okay?


If hip width has an effect on whether I need to turn my feet outward or keep them straight, this should be a piece of cake for me. When I first started doing strength training at the gym, I only used the machines because the PT I talked to had only machines in the routine he created for me. Is it possible that my muscles are not balanced properly as a result?

Looks like I have a lot to work on! Thanks again, guys, for the responses. I love reading a good debate as well.

dbmata

potential balance problems, but eh, they'll sort quickly.

I'd say, and this is what I would do if it were me...

I'd hit up the plie squats, ghds, lighter backsquats to work form, hip thrusters, bench squats, pause squats, jump squats, box jumps, step ups, weighted lunges and deadlifts to strengthen the pc.

I'd also do a lot of form work, make sure I'm pushing from my heels, I have my feet wide enough and my foot angle correct. Make sure I'm holding the right form and posture during the lift, proper depth, pause, and then make sure that I come up in one single movement chain, where heels, hips and nips all move together.

What I wouldn't do is avoid squatting until "everything is fixed." Doing the squat is a great way to get your ready to do the squat. Then I'd work on slowly upping the weight and ensuring that with every squat, I really focus on making that PC grab and push. You can feel it, and I'm not completely sure how to describe it, but when you have a good weight on, and you hit that right depth, when your pc is engaged it feels almost like muscular fingers radiating down the back of your legs from your glutes, and that you're using those to grip and push the world down and away from you and the bar.

/odddescription