Having squatting issues - flat footed

w734q672

I've seen way more written recommending toes out than not. I would say look at pictures of people squatting for non-exercise reasons or try it yourself. I have dogs and when I am filling their food dishes, I squat in front of the dog food container while measuring it out. I've done it that way for years without thinking about it. Once I started squatting for exercise, I paid attention and, sure thing, my toes point out a bit (not drastically.) That's my body's natural squat position and it has served me well this far.

Correlation does not imply causation. Just because it works for you does not mean it will work for everybody. Squat position, again, is largely impacted by the anatomy of your femur, which is inherently different from person to person. Also, testimonials are not at all persuasive at all unless you do something that starts with C and end in fit lol

Sam_I_Am77

Generally speaking your toes should point out a little because when you squat you should actually push your knees out and if your toes are pointed out your knees "track" better and it's more natural.

However, I think everybody is missing some key information here. She is very quad dominant, to the a very noticeable degree. She's not able to engage her glutes, hips, or hamstrings effectively and her feet are pronating which causes a whole host of issues here. Unless her form is completely terrible which I doubt, and in the interest of injury prevention; she should take a step back and work to improve her deficiencies for a few weeks before resuming the Squat. Like I said above and injury prevention aside, if she's only engaging her quads then what's the point? She might as well just leg press.

dbmata

I'd add along with femur being an issue (because lever length ftw), you also have other physical issues like stomach size, flexibility, torso size... all those are going to dictate the degree to which your feet are placed in both width and outward turn.

BusyRaeNOTBusty

You shouldn't be turning your feet out while squatting.

Wrong.

Rippetoe recommends a slightly wider-than-shoulder width stance, with feet pointed 30 degrees outwards.

+ 1. How are you going to squat with feet 90 degrees to your torso?
I'm with Dbmata. Feet have to point outwards and at angle convenient to make you feel there is a virtual chair you are trying to sit on. Head up straight, Chest high. Feel Strong.

Yeap. I've read Starting Strength. I thought the same until I screwed up my knees and my physical therapist actively told me not to. PT said that for women, their hips are sufficiently wide enough not to need to. Not to mention these physical therapists who say the same http://www.mobilitywod.com/2013/11/community-mwod-video-the-knees-in-squat/ These PTs don't talk about gender issues but explain that it increases the likelihood of knees going in while squatting.

There is NO way I could squat with my feet forward. It just hurts my knees to think about it. And yes, my knees will go in while squatting but I work hard not to let them and do not increase weight until I can do it while keeping my knees in on a good track.

w734q672

I'd add along with femur being an issue (because lever length ftw), you also have other physical issues like stomach size, flexibility, torso size... all those are going to dictate the degree to which your feet are placed in both width and outward turn.

^Yesss

dbmata

However, I think everybody is missing some key information here. She is very quad dominant, to the a very noticeable degree. She's not able to engage her glutes, hips, or hamstrings effectively and her feet are pronating which causes a whole host of issues here.

It has been said, in the hushed whispers of history.
"Naw, sounds like weak PC. He *kitten* isn't showing up for the fun."

It has also been noted by scholars since the age of Charlemagne, "For point #1:
When I was squatting back in june, I was using mostly quad. My coach has had me on a real *kitten* buster of a program, focusing on getting the hams and glutes stronger and activated. Now when I squat, I can feel my *kitten* really grab on and get into it. So it's a matter of muscle usage there. Work those plie squats, some bench squats, do a BUNCH of GHDs, hamstring curls, jump squats, box jumps, and then work on form."

Her PC is either extremely weak (poss.) or not activating (obvious), or both... which I think there is a strong potential. She has to train them to activate.

runner475

You shouldn't be turning your feet out while squatting.

Wrong.

Rippetoe recommends a slightly wider-than-shoulder width stance, with feet pointed 30 degrees outwards.

+ 1. How are you going to squat with feet 90 degrees to your torso?
I'm with Dbmata. Feet have to point outwards and at angle convenient to make you feel there is a virtual chair you are trying to sit on. Head up straight, Chest high. Feel Strong.

Yeap. I've read Starting Strength. I thought the same until I screwed up my knees and my physical therapist actively told me not to. PT said that for women, their hips are sufficiently wide enough not to need to. Not to mention these physical therapists who say the same http://www.mobilitywod.com/2013/11/community-mwod-video-the-knees-in-squat/ These PTs don't talk about gender issues but explain that it increases the likelihood of knees going in while squatting.

2 Words - Engg Mechanics.
I don't know what your background is but think of your body as a machine that's pushing the weight down while you are squatting.
Not pointing your feet in slight outward direction is going to topple that weight forward as you start adding weight. I hope you are able to control it. I really do.

Good Luck.
And I'm out.

jemhh

I've seen way more written recommending toes out than not. I would say look at pictures of people squatting for non-exercise reasons or try it yourself. I have dogs and when I am filling their food dishes, I squat in front of the dog food container while measuring it out. I've done it that way for years without thinking about it. Once I started squatting for exercise, I paid attention and, sure thing, my toes point out a bit (not drastically.) That's my body's natural squat position and it has served me well this far.

Correlation does not imply causation. Just because it works for you does not mean it will work for everybody. Squat position, again, is largely impacted by the anatomy of your femur, which is inherently different from person to person. Also, testimonials are not at all persuasive at all unless you do something that starts with C and end in fit lol

Not really sure why you are quoting me when I'm not the first and certainly not the only to comment on what works for me. I recommended just trying to squat naturally in order for the OP to determine her body's natural squat position. I can't really figure out if you are trying to dispute that advice, say that only toes out is okay, or just make a slam about Crossfit (which I've never done so...what's your point?)

zoeyzore

Ok, so I've read through all of the comments. Ahhh so much debating! I will say that keeping my feet straight forward puts more pressure on my knees. Some suggest I have a weak PC. Should I not be squatting until I work on strengthening that?

http://trainheroic.com/11-posterior-chain-exercises/ - are these exercises okay?


If hip width has an effect on whether I need to turn my feet outward or keep them straight, this should be a piece of cake for me. When I first started doing strength training at the gym, I only used the machines because the PT I talked to had only machines in the routine he created for me. Is it possible that my muscles are not balanced properly as a result?

Looks like I have a lot to work on! Thanks again, guys, for the responses. I love reading a good debate as well.

dbmata

potential balance problems, but eh, they'll sort quickly.

I'd say, and this is what I would do if it were me...

I'd hit up the plie squats, ghds, lighter backsquats to work form, hip thrusters, bench squats, pause squats, jump squats, box jumps, step ups, weighted lunges and deadlifts to strengthen the pc.

I'd also do a lot of form work, make sure I'm pushing from my heels, I have my feet wide enough and my foot angle correct. Make sure I'm holding the right form and posture during the lift, proper depth, pause, and then make sure that I come up in one single movement chain, where heels, hips and nips all move together.

What I wouldn't do is avoid squatting until "everything is fixed." Doing the squat is a great way to get your ready to do the squat. Then I'd work on slowly upping the weight and ensuring that with every squat, I really focus on making that PC grab and push. You can feel it, and I'm not completely sure how to describe it, but when you have a good weight on, and you hit that right depth, when your pc is engaged it feels almost like muscular fingers radiating down the back of your legs from your glutes, and that you're using those to grip and push the world down and away from you and the bar.

/odddescription

BusyRaeNOTBusty

I think starting with a goblet squat wouldn't be a bad idea. Start light enough that you can go just past parallel then move up until you are doing 40lbs, then try the bar.

Sam_I_Am77

Ok, so I've read through all of the comments. Ahhh so much debating! I will say that keeping my feet straight forward puts more pressure on my knees. Some suggest I have a weak PC. Should I not be squatting until I work on strengthening that?

About a page back I wrote a long response with what I thought. I've had to study a lot about ACL injuries in the MS program I'm in and have recently had to review individual client & athlete case studies and some of the issues you're having are common issues related to non-contact ACL injuries. The rough plan I laid out for you is based on the NASM OPT Model and their stabilization endurance phase of training. My opinion is that you should stop squatting for now and take at least four weeks to improve both Flexibility and Strength in your hips, glutes, hamstrings, and core (ab's & obliques).

I'm assuming that you're not competing in a power-lifting meet anytime soon, so nobody cares about how much you can squat, so take the time to improve a couple things that will improve your overall strength and joint & muscle health. Train properly today so you can be training years from now.

Walter__

If you can't go to parallel and you're losing your balance then your form is all wrong.That's the honest answer.

Doing barbell squats correctly is difficult. Go search youtube for squat tips from elliot hulse; efliteft's "so you think you can squat" series is also good.

dbmata

**** brah, that's a logic bomb.

rock on.

sofaking6

You know I have the same issue - and I am flat footed - and someone gave me an interesting perspective recently. She suggested that it might actually be a lack of flexibility in my ankles that is the cause, as opposed to the shape of my feet. So I'm working on stretching out by just basically crouching for @60 seconds daily. I'll let you know how it goes!

She also said to just put something under my heels in the meantime - I usually do squats during aerobics so I haven't done that, but it might be a good idea for you. Like a folded washcloth or towel or something.

dbmata

Note to all, after having seen the topic name several times...

I read it this time as: Having squirtting issues - flat footed

That is all.

neandermagnon

this problem may be caused by having relatively long femurs/short shins. basically because the femurs are relatively longer, your centre of gravity goes back too far and you fall backwards. If you can squat easily with your heels raised but only have the problem with your feet flat on the floor, then that's another reason why this could be the issue - because raising the heels puts your knees in the position they'd be in if you have a more even femur/shin ratio (i.e. it puts your centre of gravity further forward throughout the squat)

try squatting with a wide stance instead, i.e. wider than shoulder width apart. This limits how far back the pelvis can go (because femur angles and trigonometry), so your centre of gravity stays over your feet and you don't fall backwards

Good form includes making subtle adjustments for different body and limb proportions. This might not be your issue, but if it is then a wider stance should fix it. If a wider stance doesn't fix it then it's some other issue.

Sam_I_Am77

You know I have the same issue - and I am flat footed - .and someone gave me an interesting perspective recently. She suggested that it might actually be a lack of flexibility in my ankles that is the cause, as opposed to the shape of my feet. So I'm working on stretching out by just basically crouching for @60 seconds daily.

It very well could be just a flexibility issue, although you may want to get more specific. Many of the things I listed for the OP, but make sure you're stretching your calves very well along with your hips and hamstrings. Mobility issues in one area can actually look like and / or cause issues in another area and since the the hips, hamstrings, glutes are all involved in the squat you might as well work on flexibility in all. Static stretches should be held for at least 30-seconds as well.