Carbs and Pain...is there a connection?
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narrowdoor wrote: »I was wondering if anyone knows of a connectionbetween carb intake and increased pain. I have a considerable amount of pain all the time, mostly joints...knees, hips, ankles, and such. I have been cutting back on carbs, with yesterday being very low and I felt pretty good all day and slept pain free last night. I do get fairly regular exercise by pushing through the pain but am tired of living on ibuprofin & tylenol....it is so bad for a body. Help please!!
Carbs in and of themselves...doubtful. Gluten could possibly and issue if you have gluten allergies.0 -
chrissym78 wrote: »I agree that you should probably talk to your dr. BUT, yes, excess carbs can cause inflammation in many parts of your body. I'm not an expert but I have been seeing a nutritionist and have followed a primal eating plan for 6 months and feel I have learned alot. Primal is low-carb by default b/c you cut out all things processed, including bread and pasta and refined sugars... low-carb, clean foods, high healthy fat and lean protein and lots of fruits and veggies, nuts and no chemicals. I have never felt better and I'm down over 50 lbs! Last winter I had a bad bout of tendonitis in my foot and underwent 4 months of therapy. I also had headaches and other pain, all of which are gone now. Good luck to you!
I wouldn't say by default that primal is low carb...there are plenty of carbs that fit into the primal/paleo diet. What I think is hilarious though is that true primal eating would have consisted largely of tubers...pretty high carb.0 -
fatfudgery wrote: »I've been bulking for a few months and have found that the more carbs I eat, the less injuries and pain I get.
Of course, everyone is different. I know it's the exact opposite for some people (@arditarose where you at?)
Here I am!
If I eat a considerable amount of carbs, I'm talking a nice Italian dinner with bread or a lot of sweets, I am can be in very intense pain the next day. It's not a joint pain though, it's more like a skin pain. It feels like my body is bruised. It's sore to touch. I'll also swell up if I eat a lot of bread/grains. One time I left a dinner party and when I put my flats on, they barely fit my feet. I had to take off my rings because my fingers were so swollen.
I dislike all this. Sucks.1 -
Nightshade vegies can mess w arthritis so Ive heard. I think it matters what grain. Keep it clean whole grains not pasta or donuts. Kinda obvious. Also matters what u are doing repetitive motion etc.2
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singingflutelady wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »@GaleHawkins and several others in the low carb group would say their lives have improved tremendously due to the reduction in pain and inflammation that they found with low carb eating.
Gale also has autoimmune diseases so I don't know if that applies to the general population.
Thankfully getting off sugar and carbs resolved my active autoimmune diseases. I am quite certain had I done this 40 year earlier I would have had a normal healthy life.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4034518/
I now understand epigentics trumps genetics in many.
Many people will refuse to modify their eating just like I did for 40 years. Knowing that my kids have same genetic factor for Ankylosing Spondylitis (AS) as I do always concerned me.
It was when the Rheumatologists wanted me to start on Enbrel injections and in my case I saw a real risk of dying from cancer as a side effect did I get my butt moving and brain engaged.
30 days after cold turkey going off sugar and all forms of all grains first of Oct 2014 on a hunch that it might manage my joint and muscle pain my 40 years of subjective pain levels of 7-8 dropped to levels of 2-3. Two years later I am still managing my pain by my way of eating.
6 months later my IBD was totally resolved and has not flared even one day in the past 18 months after being active for 40 years. Long term skin issues resolved. Brain fog lifted. Lost 50 pounds without trying as a side effect. Maintained at 200 pounds eating 2500 calories daily for last 18 months. Ditched my power chair. I can walk well and get in and out of vehicles unaided now. Bleeding gums and dental issues resolved plus no new cavities. Looking forward to life vs being house bound. Company is returning to profitability. I treat my wife and kids better. Actually I could go on and one.
While I can not tell another what is triggering their health crisis I can tell you what stopped my health crisis and is REVERSING it. I just left off sugar and all forums of all grains. Before and after labs proves my case.
My action two years ago without my then understanding meant I had gone to a WOE (Way Of Eating) that was LCHF (Low Carb High Fat).
Pre LCHF (two years ago) labs were:
Total Cholesterol - 226
HDL - 38
LDL - 146
Triglycerides - 209
9 months of LCHF (one year ago) labs were:
Total Cholesterol - 404
HDL - 56
LDL - 323
Triglycerides - 121
17 months of LCHF (Aug 2016) labs were:
Total Cholesterol - 257
HDL - 63
LDL - 186
Triglycerides - 36
The new doctor said keep doing what I am doing because it is working and that now Total Cholesterol has to be at >290 before they consider statins, etc. She was not hype pro LCHF but she said the numbers proved it was working for me. I think my numbers helped her better understand the first year of LCHF sending Cholesterol through the roof is NORMAL for some. I refused statins last year because I knew it was normal to shot up because the body takes a while to stop producing high cholesterol that is produced to protect against high inflammation.
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Correlation doesn’t imply causation. Just because two things occur together does not mean that one caused the other, even if it seems to make sense.
But if one stops getting flat tires when one stops driving through roofing nails it could be a clue to the aware ones that the roofing nails may have been the CAUSE of the flat tires.
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If you did a day of low carbs and felt better, it sounds like you should try more of that and see how you go. Take 3 weeks, cut out all processed foods and carbs like breads, pastas, rice etc. Keep the fruit though! If after that you feel a difference than you may have your answer. You can slowly add things back in and see where the pain comes back. Don't add everything at once and only a little at a time. Also, look at nightshades like tomato, eggplant, peppers, etc. These also have inflammatory properties and I know when I eat peppers I have a lot of knee pain. I have pretty much eliminated these from my regular diet (going on 4 years) and notice a huge difference. It isn't completely gone but is much better than before.2
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leanmass24 wrote: »Yep, Humans were never designed to run on carbs as a main fuel that is why you get the inflamatory bloated feeling after eating carbs... Read "The Primal Blueprint" for more info.
Humans are omnivores. We are designed to run on multiple food sources.4 -
The truth is no one knows. We have hypothesis about what causes what, which in turn allows us to ask more questions. Lots of correlation but alas no causation.
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Michael190lbs wrote: »I just did a carb load and my body hurts every muscle hurts so there is some truth to it. I have been under 100 grams of carbs for a long time and ate about 300 grams yesturday with an extra 1000 calories,
But this begs the question, was it the carbs, or was it the 300 grams of carbs? In my experience, it's not just what we eat, but also how we eat...3 -
Great point about how you eat. Gale, in particular, you've said lots of stuff about how you ate before changing your diet that makes me incredibly skeptical that it was about carb percentage. The diet you have described was not a healthy one or one based on sensible portions, apart from the carb percentage, whatever it was. Many people who eat more standard carb percentages do eat healthy, sensible, calorie-appropriate diets.
Also, you (talking more generally) can't generalize about carbs. Is it "carbs" or is it a huge amount of sugar, of grains, the way you happen to eat when eating lots of carbs (often lots of high cal/low nutrient foods, that have lots besides carbs in them). Is it that you otherwise are doing/not doing things differently on high carb days? Is it that you specifically have reactions to specific sources of carbs that you enjoy and were eating more of those when not cutting carbs.
I don't question that for some eating lower carb helps with specific health issues, but the idea that "carbs" in general lead to more pain for people generally is something I find hard to fathom. Again, looking at blue zones with higher carb diets, do they have more issues with pain or inflammatory diseases/conditions than other traditional diets?3 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Great point about how you eat. Gale, in particular, you've said lots of stuff about how you ate before changing your diet that makes me incredibly skeptical that it was about carb percentage. The diet you have described was not a healthy one or one based on sensible portions, apart from the carb percentage, whatever it was. Many people who eat more standard carb percentages do eat healthy, sensible, calorie-appropriate diets.
Also, you (talking more generally) can't generalize about carbs. Is it "carbs" or is it a huge amount of sugar, of grains, the way you happen to eat when eating lots of carbs (often lots of high cal/low nutrient foods, that have lots besides carbs in them). Is it that you otherwise are doing/not doing things differently on high carb days? Is it that you specifically have reactions to specific sources of carbs that you enjoy and were eating more of those when not cutting carbs.
I don't question that for some eating lower carb helps with specific health issues, but the idea that "carbs" in general lead to more pain for people generally is something I find hard to fathom. Again, looking at blue zones with higher carb diets, do they have more issues with pain or inflammatory diseases/conditions than other traditional diets?
@lemurcat12 actually you give me more credit than I deserve.
All I did to cut out most of my pain and start curing my autoimmune symptoms was to leave off most all food sources with added sugar or containing any form of any grain.
Carbs may or may not be a factor. Now I just eat a balanced diet that that does not contain carbs from the above sources. If you remember it was when the doctors wanted me to start on Enbrel injections for pain management and my fear of Enbrel use leading to cancer in my weakened state of health that moved me to find pain management by eating a balanced diet that managed my pain. Thankfully finding the right macros for my best health fixed much more than just my joint and muscle pain. The same way of eating may not fix others however but one will not know until one gives it a 90 day test.1 -
Michael190lbs wrote: »I just did a carb load and my body hurts every muscle hurts so there is some truth to it. I have been under 100 grams of carbs for a long time and ate about 300 grams yesturday with an extra 1000 calories,
But this begs the question, was it the carbs, or was it the 300 grams of carbs? In my experience, it's not just what we eat, but also how we eat...
VERY good Point!!1 -
Michael190lbs wrote: »Michael190lbs wrote: »I just did a carb load and my body hurts every muscle hurts so there is some truth to it. I have been under 100 grams of carbs for a long time and ate about 300 grams yesturday with an extra 1000 calories,
But this begs the question, was it the carbs, or was it the 300 grams of carbs? In my experience, it's not just what we eat, but also how we eat...
VERY good Point!!
The point is it was not Protein or Fats that was the suspect.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3267662/
Is there a role for carbohydrate restriction in the treatment and prevention of cancer?
Conclusions
We summarize our main findings from the literature regarding the role of dietary CHO restriction in cancer development and outcome.
(i) Most, if not all, tumor cells have a high demand on glucose compared to benign cells of the same tissue and conduct glycolysis even in the presence of oxygen (the Warburg effect). In addition, many cancer cells express insulin receptors (IRs) and show hyperactivation of the IGF1R-IR pathway. Evidence exists that chronically elevated blood glucose, insulin and IGF1 levels facilitate tumorigenesis and worsen the outcome in cancer patients.
(ii) The involvement of the glucose-insulin axis may also explain the association of the metabolic syndrome with an increased risk for several cancers. CHO restriction has already been shown to exert favorable effects in patients with the metabolic syndrome. Epidemiological and anthropological studies indicate that restricting dietary CHOs could be beneficial in decreasing cancer risk.
(iii) Many cancer patients, in particular those with advanced stages of the disease, exhibit altered whole-body metabolism marked by increased plasma levels of inflammatory molecules, impaired glycogen synthesis, increased proteolysis and increased fat utilization in muscle tissue, increased lipolysis in adipose tissue and increased gluconeogenesis by the liver. High fat, low CHO diets aim at accounting for these metabolic alterations. Studies conducted so far have shown that such diets are safe and likely beneficial, in particular for advanced stage cancer patients.
(iv) CHO restriction mimics the metabolic state of calorie restriction or - in the case of KDs - fasting. The beneficial effects of calorie restriction and fasting on cancer risk and progression are well established. CHO restriction thus opens the possibility to target the same underlying mechanisms without the side-effects of hunger and weight loss.................................
circ.ahajournals.org/content/124/10/e258
CARDIOLOGY PATIENT PAGE
Nutritional Advice for the Patient With Heart Disease
What Diet Should We Recommend for Our Patients?
The major precepts of this diet are as follows7:
Markedly decrease the volume of simple carbohydrates (foods containing white flour such as bread, as well as white rice, pasta, sugar, and potatoes) in the diet. If weight reduction is not required, modest intake of simple carbohydrates is allowed, but individuals should attempt to eat complex carbohydrates (see No. 2 below) in place of the simple ones.
Try to eat foods containing complex carbohydrates, such as beans, whole-grain foods, and nuts. These foods raise blood sugar more slowly than those with simple carbohydrates, thereby moderating pancreatic insulin secretion.......................................
ajcn.nutrition.org/content/79/5/774.full
Increased consumption of refined carbohydrates and the epidemic of type 2 diabetes in the United States: an ecologic assessment1,2,3
Conclusions: Increasing intakes of refined carbohydrate (corn syrup) concomitant with decreasing intakes of fiber paralleled the upward trend in the prevalence of type 2 diabetes observed in the United States during the 20th century.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »The point is it was not Protein or Fats that was the suspect.
Know one knows for sure what it was or was not.
I can only imagine I would also feel just as awful eating 300 grams of protein, or 300 grams of fat. Does that mean protein and fat are bad? No....0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »The point is it was not Protein or Fats that was the suspect.
Know one knows for sure what it was or was not.
I can only imagine I would also feel just as awful eating 300 grams of protein, or 300 grams of fat. Does that mean protein and fat are bad? No....
@J72FIT will I can not speak to your imagination about food choices but medically it is known protein and fats do not care the same health risks as carbs for the general population. Carbs are not evil but some kinds in some people can lead to a premature death per some in medical research. High refined carbs along with high fat in one's diet seems to lead to the greatest health risks in humans per some. That could be like a high end ice cream or a regular Coke and Big Mac perhaps. It all comes down to macros in the end it seems from my reading of research.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »The point is it was not Protein or Fats that was the suspect.
Know one knows for sure what it was or was not.
I can only imagine I would also feel just as awful eating 300 grams of protein, or 300 grams of fat. Does that mean protein and fat are bad? No....
@J72FIT will I can not speak to your imagination about food choices but medically it is known protein and fats do not care the same health risks as carbs for the general population. Carbs are not evil but some kinds in some people can lead to a premature death per some in medical research. High refined carbs along with high fat in one's diet seems to lead to the greatest health risks in humans per some. That could be like a high end ice cream or a regular Coke and Big Mac perhaps. It all comes down to macros in the end it seems from my reading of research.
Don't be a wise *kitten*....0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »The point is it was not Protein or Fats that was the suspect.
Know one knows for sure what it was or was not.
I can only imagine I would also feel just as awful eating 300 grams of protein, or 300 grams of fat. Does that mean protein and fat are bad? No....
@J72FIT will I can not speak to your imagination about food choices but medically it is known protein and fats do not care the same health risks as carbs for the general population. Carbs are not evil but some kinds in some people can lead to a premature death per some in medical research. High refined carbs along with high fat in one's diet seems to lead to the greatest health risks in humans per some. That could be like a high end ice cream or a regular Coke and Big Mac perhaps. It all comes down to macros in the end it seems from my reading of research.
Generally speaking, people with diets of highly refined carbs and high fat are generally not active or health conscious. Generally speaking, people who are active generally make better choices with their diet. Too many confounding factors to draw conclusions. Lots of hypotheses to ask more questions...1 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »@GaleHawkins and several others in the low carb group would say their lives have improved tremendously due to the reduction in pain and inflammation that they found with low carb eating.
Gale also has autoimmune diseases so I don't know if that applies to the general population.
Thankfully getting off sugar and carbs resolved my active autoimmune diseases. I am quite certain had I done this 40 year earlier I would have had a normal healthy life.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4034518/
I now understand epigentics trumps genetics in many.
Many people will refuse to modify their eating just like I did for 40 years. Knowing that my kids have same genetic factor for Ankylosing Spondylitis (AS) as I do always concerned me.
It was when the Rheumatologists wanted me to start on Enbrel injections and in my case I saw a real risk of dying from cancer as a side effect did I get my butt moving and brain engaged.
30 days after cold turkey going off sugar and all forms of all grains first of Oct 2014 on a hunch that it might manage my joint and muscle pain my 40 years of subjective pain levels of 7-8 dropped to levels of 2-3. Two years later I am still managing my pain by my way of eating.
6 months later my IBD was totally resolved and has not flared even one day in the past 18 months after being active for 40 years. Long term skin issues resolved. Brain fog lifted. Lost 50 pounds without trying as a side effect. Maintained at 200 pounds eating 2500 calories daily for last 18 months. Ditched my power chair. I can walk well and get in and out of vehicles unaided now. Bleeding gums and dental issues resolved plus no new cavities. Looking forward to life vs being house bound. Company is returning to profitability. I treat my wife and kids better. Actually I could go on and one.
While I can not tell another what is triggering their health crisis I can tell you what stopped my health crisis and is REVERSING it. I just left off sugar and all forums of all grains. Before and after labs proves my case.
My action two years ago without my then understanding meant I had gone to a WOE (Way Of Eating) that was LCHF (Low Carb High Fat).
Pre LCHF (two years ago) labs were:
Total Cholesterol - 226
HDL - 38
LDL - 146
Triglycerides - 209
9 months of LCHF (one year ago) labs were:
Total Cholesterol - 404
HDL - 56
LDL - 323
Triglycerides - 121
17 months of LCHF (Aug 2016) labs were:
Total Cholesterol - 257
HDL - 63
LDL - 186
Triglycerides - 36
The new doctor said keep doing what I am doing because it is working and that now Total Cholesterol has to be at >290 before they consider statins, etc. She was not hype pro LCHF but she said the numbers proved it was working for me. I think my numbers helped her better understand the first year of LCHF sending Cholesterol through the roof is NORMAL for some. I refused statins last year because I knew it was normal to shot up because the body takes a while to stop producing high cholesterol that is produced to protect against high inflammation.
IBD now? I thought it was IBS? Big huge difference. And btw the chance of getting cancer from biologics is very low. Just pointing that out since some people have to take them. No matter what I eat I can't have a semi normal life without Remicade. Sure it raises my cancer risk a little but I'd love to live long enough to get that cancer plus it cuts down the inflammation in my intestines a lot and the more inflammation in the intestines the higher the colorectal cancer risk, much higher than the risk from biologics.1
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