Give me the straight dope about sodium
taso42_DELETED
Posts: 3,394 Member
So we all (or most) try to limit sodium as much as possible, right? And when we have sodium bomb of a day, the advice is to drink extra water to flush it out. My question is this: Is having a whole bunch of sodium and drinking a whole bunch of water approximately the same as having less sodium in the first place? Why or why not? If it's approximately the same net result, then why is it even a concern?
And a more general question. One reason to limit sodium (if not THE reason), is because it makes us retain water and weigh more. What if starting tomorrow I just ate a ton of sodium every single day? I don't think I would turn into a water balloon and pop. I imagine I'd gain some weight until I reached some sort of "saturation point" and then basically find equilibrium there. If I maintained the increased sodium level from that point forward, and then continued to lose fat, or build muscle, or both, why would it matter that I weight X lbs more with the water weight?
And a more general question. One reason to limit sodium (if not THE reason), is because it makes us retain water and weigh more. What if starting tomorrow I just ate a ton of sodium every single day? I don't think I would turn into a water balloon and pop. I imagine I'd gain some weight until I reached some sort of "saturation point" and then basically find equilibrium there. If I maintained the increased sodium level from that point forward, and then continued to lose fat, or build muscle, or both, why would it matter that I weight X lbs more with the water weight?
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I don't think it would matter regarding the saturation point and equilibrium and all.
I'm more worreid about the other health issues caused by high sodium levels for a lengthy amount of time. And sadly, I cannot for the of me remember what they are at the moment. Perhaps the sodium has already done its work??0 -
Interested in responses,
See my post I just put out an hour ago: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/217787-my-high-sodium-high-protein-intake0 -
Water follows sodium. If you consume large amounts of sodium you retain water. If you are retaining water your gaining weight.0
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High intakes of sodium are the leading cause of high blood pressure and osteoporosis (more common in women) - so limited your intakes prevents it.The more water you drink, you will flush out the sodium, however it is still possible to not get enough water to balance the sodium, and therefore won't be able to excrete it. Obviously, we all know that high amounts causes water retention and can make our body "swell" (edema).0
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I watch it because high blood pressure runs in my family. I am also interested in the answers u get.0
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Because sodium enters the digestive system and is absorbed into the blood stream. This causes the heart to work harder and increases the pressure on vessel walls (e.g. high blood pressure). I would think that putting your body through this on a regular basis would be unhealthy and possibly do some damage before the water has time to flush it out. Not so much all about weight and water retention.0
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Water follows sodium. If you consume large amounts of sodium you retain water. If you are retaining water your gaining weight.
So I will keep gaining and gaining water weight until I weigh 500 lbs? :huh: This is why I specifically raised my theory that I would reach some kind of equilibrium.0 -
FO SHO BRO0
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I thought it had nothing to do with weight and everything to do with blood pressure, stroke, and cardiovascular disease.0
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Hmm, now you guys are making me think that tracking blood pressure regularly might be something worth doing, just like we track weight, body fat %, resting heart rate, etc....0
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I certainly don't have the answers to all your questions, but one thing I do know is that having elevated inflammation (water weight) on a continuous basis hinders the bodies ability to metabolize fat. Most of the excess water resides in the fat cells so that when these cells are 'inflated' even if it is with water rather than fat, it feels like fat and looks like fat. The water blocks the fat off from being 'found' by the chemical process that would transport it from the fat cell to the liver to be metabolized into energy. Also, the by product of fat burning needs to be carried off to be eliminated and you need to drink extra water to do this.
So, what about sodium? The more you eat, the less your body can work on getting to the fat and using that as fuel. You body still needs fuel, however, and if it can't get to the fat, it will go for the muscle.0 -
Re: Sara's post
^ That would be my guess as to what would happen before reaching equilibrium.0 -
Actually, I think it would be until you dehydrate, that's the more immediate result. But your body will do extra things to flush it out. You'll have extra salty sweat & urine, kidneys working hard to compensate...Water follows sodium. If you consume large amounts of sodium you retain water. If you are retaining water your gaining weight.
So I will keep gaining and gaining water weight until I weigh 500 lbs? :huh: This is why I specifically raised my theory that I would reach some kind of equilibrium.
What I learned from my doc today though (from doing a metabolic panel) is that despite my really high sodium intake levels, my electrolyte levels are just fine. The doc attributes this to my trying to drink a decent amount of water and my good amount of strenuous exercise. Consequently, I don't follow MFP's default setting of 2500 mg per day (or even close really).
ETA: I also have my blood pressure checked regularly and it's in a very good range.0 -
Hypertension is the #1 undiagnosed condition in the US. How they know that, I don't know, but that's what I hear.
That and any time my parents eat out at restaurants, they complain of headaches and heart palpitations and gastrointestinal problems.... All evidence of high blood pressure.
Anyway, keeping track of blood pressure is always a great idea I say. I like to go check it at WalMart with their tester by the pharmacy.0 -
I've often thought this way too, and it makes sense to me. So I am interested to see if anyone offers some research/evidence-based rationale. So what if I walk around weighing 5-10 pounds more than I would without the water weight, right? (I mean, I'd rather not, but I'm talking about the theory.)What if starting tomorrow I just ate a ton of sodium every single day? I don't think I would turn into a water balloon and pop. I imagine I'd gain some weight until I reached some sort of "saturation point" and then basically find equilibrium there. If I maintained the increased sodium level from that point forward, and then continued to lose fat, or build muscle, or both, why would it matter that I weight X lbs more with the water weight?0 -
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No you won't blow up like a big water balloon, but you will retain a lot of water. When I started this whole journey it was because of extremely high blood pressure. My doctor put me on two medications, one of which was a diuretic. In a matter of days I lost 10 pounds. That was with no diet change, meaning it was all water weight. Ten pounds is significant weight. If you are looking at getting a good amount of definition that might be the difference between looking sort of puffy and looking nice and defined.
The more worrisome thing is the health risks. Water retention will make your heart work harder, and in the long run that leads to high blood pressure and the increased risk of stroke, heart attack and kidney disease. While it might seem like a small thing to gain that water weight, the possible long term consequences are not little things. Doing a bit of reading because of your question I found the upper level of consumption that is not likely to cause health problems is 2300mg/day. The better level is 1500mg which is considered a healthy level of sodium.
Just as a note, if trying to keep your sodium level down seems difficult the ones you need to complain to are the companies that put so much sodium in the food products we eat. I have struggled to keep my sodium low since having such high blood pressure and a stroke in January of 2010, but lately I have had very little problem keeping it low because as I use MFP I see the sodium in food. When a food is high is sodium I look for lower sodium options, and while some of that requires me to cook the same food myself, many times there are no salt added options for foods. The more we ask for it from manufacturers, to more we will see it. When I started this I missed the salt in my food. Now, I find many foods way to salty, and I find the salt hides the wonderful taste of food.0 -
Potassium is a good reducer of high sodium intake." and if bananas are too sweet for you, many other foods have much higher levels of Potassium"Apricots,Carrot,beets.0
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taso, when i read the first paragraph of your post, and reached your question about if the net effect's the same, why does it matter, it reminded me so much of the question, "if i eat back exercise calories, what's the point of exercising??" ah, the groans and horror such questions elicited!!!
now i'm guessing you're not a sodium addict and not trying to justify eating lots of sodium, and i'll assume you're asking in theory (right? 
)
wish i'd paid more attention in my pre-med days! but my intuition tells me that even if your body might reach some equilibrium level, other aspects of your body could be compromised to achieve equilibrium with the sodium. just theorizing!0 -
And these, more about your specific question re: water counteracting sodium - Pay attention to the last line in the first one.
BOSTON , MA.— The May issue of Harvard Health Letter reports on the Institute of Medicine 's (IOM) guidelines, focusing specifically on water, sodium, and potassium. Dr. Kenneth Minaker, a geriatrician at Massachusetts General Hospital and a longtime member of the Health Letter 's editorial board, was a member of the committee that wrote the guidelines.
The article emphasizes the importance of measuring total daily water intake. All the water in beverages and foods, including soft drinks, salads, and fruits and vegetables, should count toward your daily intake. According to the IOM, men should get the equivalent of 15.5 cups of water daily in food and drinks, and women should get 11.5 cups.
The adequate intake of sodium is 1,300 milligrams (mg) for people ages 50–70 and 1,200 mg for those 71 and older. According to Harvard Health Letter, the average American adult consumes 3,000–4,000 mg of sodium daily—well over the recommended value. Processed foods or those high in preservatives should be eaten in moderation in order to reduce sodium intake.
The third nutrient the May issue focuses on is potassium. Guidelines suggest most adults should have 4,700 mg, but surveys show Americans consume 1,000–2,000 mg less than that. Potassium-rich foods include fruits and vegetables like bananas, mushrooms, spinach, and almonds. Potassium helps offset high sodium intake by triggering more sodium excretion by the kidneys.
http://www.health.harvard.edu/press_releases/water_sodium_potassium_intake.htm
Your body needs some sodium to function properly because it:
Helps maintain the right balance of fluids in your body
Helps transmit nerve impulses
Influences the contraction and relaxation of muscles
Your kidneys naturally balance the amount of sodium stored in your body for optimal health. When your sodium levels are low, your kidneys essentially hold on to the sodium. When sodium levels are high, your kidneys excrete the excess in urine.
But if for some reason your kidneys can't eliminate enough sodium, the sodium starts to accumulate in your blood. Because sodium attracts and holds water, your blood volume increases. Increased blood volume makes your heart work harder to move more blood through your blood vessels, which increases pressure in your arteries. Such diseases as congestive heart failure, cirrhosis and chronic kidney disease can make it hard for your kidneys to keep sodium levels balanced.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/sodium/NU002840 -
More than just water retention causing weight gain...
A normal amount of sodium in the body helps to maintain blood pressure, temperature, and the bodt's functions...when too much sodium is ingested, it causes the body to retain more water than it is used to. This increase in fluid in the blood vessels causes blood pressure to rise. IF you simply continue to drink MORE fluids thinking you are going to "flush" the sodium out, you will just be adding to the already too high fluid amount in your body, thus increasing your blood pressure even higher. The only way to rid your body of the sodium would be to wait until it passes, or sweat it out...
ALSO.... your body relies on electrolytes to carry out important body functions...i.e.- your heart's conduction system!!... mainly, potassium and sodium... to carry out said functions normally, the body needs a constant level of these electrolytes. When our body senses there is too much or too little it adjusts by causing a fluid loss or signaling the thirst mechanism. (interesting fact-- this is why bars often offer free salty snacks--- your body will signal that thirst mechanism, therefore resulting in you buying more of their beverages!!) what I'm getting at, is that it is important to limit your sodium intake (but not cut it out all together, if that was even possible) because your body can only handle a certain amount to function properly.
Conversely, if just drinking water worked to sort of "flush things out of our system" drinking a gallon of water with every meal could make it so we never gain an ounce no matter what we ate! I suppose in a sense this is true--- water does flush fat and other things out of the body...but realistically, water is not the cure-all. You would drown yourself trying to flush all the fat and sodium out.0 -
Interesting topic.0
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Hmm, now you guys are making me think that tracking blood pressure regularly might be something worth doing, just like we track weight, body fat %, resting heart rate, etc....
It's not a bad idea for anyone to do. Anytime you go to the dr. it should always be checked. If you get a nurse like mine, just wants to write it in my chart and let it go...NO! Ask. You should always know your numbers. After all, they're your numbers.
I don't know how the ones are in pharmacies...could ask the pharmacist or your dr. how good they are.
The same goes for a lipid profile. That should be yearly. It's your body, your numbers and your responsibility to make sure things are done and are right. 0 -
Well I've definitely showed my ignorance by asking this, but I'm glad that I did. Clearly, water retention is the least of the concerns. There is a lot info to digest here. I will take a good look. Thanks for the responses. By all means keep them coming if anyone has more.
How does this reconcile with what tharrop's doctor found? He's in excellent health and all his stats check out, even though he (presumably) has higher than recommended sodium consumption (I'm not even sure how much higher; I haven't been scrutinizing his sodium levels ). Does that mean his sodium intake happens to be fine for his body, or is he increasing risk for problems that may surface later? Perhaps reading all the links and info upthread will answer this question too. 0 -
Ok, it's off the wall, but I'm going to try to give you an example for you about tharrop's situation.
No one knows specifically what their body is doing unless tests or surgeries are performed.
Take alcohol, for instance. If you were to have 1 beer and I were to have 1 beer (yuck!) you would be fine. I would end up tipsy. Not just due to weight or I'm a female. Just different situations, people and everything. Sodium, carbs, fats...everything is different. Age, health, how your organs are, genetics...all play a role in everything.
1500 mg is what the govt. recently set for everyone. It's just a guideline...not law.
I hope that helps...I probably made it worse. lol0 -
Well, I should add that I'm certainly in agreement with all the warnings & data posted in this thread about the risks of hypertension, heart disease and so forth. My original post/original thread was more about how we as individuals are all a little different and some of the pre-set guidelines in MFP are not equally applicable to all.
That said though, my high sodium intake may be ok for me and definitely not for another. In fact, I've always had really good blood pressure and a low pulse, even when I wasn't as much into exercising & eating right. When I wasn't working out my resting heart rate would hover around 60 bpm (normally considered quite healthy); now it's more like 40 bpm. I know genetics has some to do with this. So it's definitely different for everyone.0 -
it reminded me so much of the question, "if i eat back exercise calories, what's the point of exercising??" ah, the groans and horror such questions elicited!!! now i'm guessing you're not a sodium addict and not trying to justify eating lots of sodium, and i'll assume you're asking in theory (right? )
Touché!
Nah, i'm not a sodium addict at all (although I am guilty of being over 2500mg pretty much every day). I am just THAT clueless about the topic that I was seriously questioning whether it's even valid and whether we all worry about sodium for nothing. Sort of like how people worry about eating late at night because that was the common lore for a long time. Don't worry, I'm not going to keep a salt lick next to my computer from now on 0 -
Well, I should add that I'm certainly in agreement with all the warnings & data posted in this thread about the risks of hypertension, heart disease and so forth. My original post/original thread was more about how we as individuals are all a little different and some of the pre-set guidelines in MFP are not equally applicable to all.
That said though, my high sodium intake may be ok for me and definitely not for another. In fact, I've always had really good blood pressure and a low pulse, even when I wasn't as much into exercising & eating right. When I wasn't working out my resting heart rate would hover around 60 bpm (normally considered quite healthy); now it's more like 40 bpm. I know genetics has some to do with this. So it's definitely different for everyone.
Exactly!! The flipside, though...you might be fine with a high sodium diet now. Down the road, it could start taking a toll on your body. Then again, you may be a lucky one. 0 -
Ya know, back in the day (like the 50's & earlier I think), coaches used to give players salt tabs. It was thought to be healthy back then because of all the salt being spent through their sweating. Nowadays it's a lot better to just let em sip some Gatorade for electrolyte replacement. But there is some truth to the fact that you'll spend some sodium by sweating a lot.0
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It may seem silly, but one way you can see if your sodium intake is grotesquely overboard. Take your finger and push on your shins. Is there like an indentation left? This is what's called "pitting edema." That's what I was dealing with last year. I always check now.0
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