Can you lose fat and gain muscle?

SHBoss1673

I don't train people with stronglifts program, or any progressive load programs like that as my area of focus is obesity and high impact athletic functional training (plyometrics, and yes, some body weight, but also speed drills, balance drills, and functional power drills). I don't focus on power and don't pretend to be an expert on body building techniques (I'm working on it, in fact I'm attending a very highly regarded Olympic lift training session in a few months at our gym which is supposed to be the best out there, put on by the Olympic weight lifting association). but that doesn't mean I don't know anything about it. I study every chance I get on kinesiology and body mechanics, which is more than most people do (trainers I mean), so I feel I'm adequate to give advice to most beginner and intermediate weight training.

That said, I don't question your program, stronglifts 5x5 along with other 5x5 or 3x5 programs like that (marc rippetoe et all) are all fine if that's the way you want to go, progressive load techniques are proven to be effective for beginner and intermediate strength training.

My main issue is the timeline.

I'm also skeptical of the total BF% numbers, and that's probably through no fault of your own. Bio-electrical impedance testers are notoriously inaccurate. Even professional level testers (which it sounds like you used) can fluctuate widely in their numbers. The problem resides in the medium they use. Because the human body is so reliant on hydration levels, and because the electrical impulses are measured by resistance (hydration levels effect resistance greatly) you can (and I've seen this happen) take your measurements twice within a 24 hour period and differ by up to 5% (that's right, 5%). So maybe your tools were just a bit off, that would clear up a lot of the incredulity.

2 other factors to take into account.

first is that someone beginning a new exercise program will generally gain a lot of strength for the first 2 or 3 months quickly. This isn't really because of "new muscle growth" at all. It's because of neural adaptation. And for this same reason, they gain weight that LOOKS like new muscle mass. It isn't. See, the body only activates muscle fibers that are needed. Genetically, we'll have a certain amount of muscle fibers in a muscle, whether we use them or not. Unless you are starving yourself to a point where the body is in serious danger, you'll keep most of those fibers. But the brain will essentially "deactivate" them, removing the fluids that they require to function, and not sending electrical impulses to those fibers. So even though you have X number of lbs of muscle mass in a muscle group, you may only use 60% of that mass actively, the other 40% would be dormant (think atrophied, its similar, but not quite as extreme).
When you begin training this muscle group, the body sees the need for more power from that muscle group. It starts re-activating these dormant fibers, and turning those neural pathways back on, this happens far faster than building new muscle mass. So you can shoot up from 60% to 85% or 90% in a matter of weeks. But weight gain comes along with this, glycogen at the muscle site is restored, fluid levels are restored, and blood oxygen levels are raised to feed these newly restored muscles.

so you get weight gain, strength gains, and because the muscle is now invigorated with new fluids, you LOOK more cut and bigger. Do this with 1 muscle group and the weight changes are small (maybe a pound on the bigger muscle groups) but add this to ALL the body, and you're talking 10 to 15 lbs of weight gain without any muscle mass changes.

So you see, I don't have any problem with someone making massive gains over the first few months of a training program, but it's not LBM gains, it's water and fluid weight, which is fine, and healthy, and does provide some small amount of metabolic rate increase, but it's not overly high.

That's probably what happened with you.

Again, as long as you're not trying to say you lost WEIGHT, nothing that happens is particularly shocking to me. But I'm all about classification and clarification.

Joe body builder, who's been doing this for 4 years can't make the kinds of gains you're stating (because of above), and building lean mass is HARD, average for those who are serious is between 1 and 2 lbs a month, for the rest of us, gaining 5 lbs of lean mass in a year is about what to expect.

As to BF%. Yes, if you change to eating healthy and exercise from not, you could lose 5 or 6 percent in a few months (or more if you're obese and dedicate hours a day to it) but once you get into a zone where you are merely overweight or at a healthy BF%, looking for these kinds of losses is unreasonable to say the least.

Doing both at the same time is even harder, again I won't say it's impossible, it's just really hard to keep that kind of thing going, burning the candle at both ends as it were. Most people who do this sort of thing end up working to hard, stressing out, and failing. I don't say that to discourage, I say it as simple fact. if you can keep it going, that's great, but it becomes a drain on the mental faculties after a while, and you really need to be aware of the potential pitfalls of it.

I personally don't ever recommend high demand training to achieve weight loss or body fat loss goals, simply because I usually train the every day person, who only has time to make small changes in their life. Only when a person makes the changes stick for a good 3 or 4 months and can prove to me that they can maintain with little or no stress do I offer them more advanced training and specificity in an area of fitness. And yes, I do refer people who want advanced weight training to other, more experienced trainers, likewise, those trainers refer to me when they need advanced nutrition help or functional athlete training (sadly, far more people want weight training help than do they want to be a better hockey player or football player).


hope this helps clear things up.

-Banks

freerange

I don't train people with stronglifts program, or any progressive load programs like that as my area of focus is obesity and high impact athletic functional training (plyometrics, and yes, some body weight, but also speed drills, balance drills, and functional power drills). I don't focus on power and don't pretend to be an expert on body building techniques (I'm working on it, in fact I'm attending a very highly regarded Olympic lift training session in a few months at our gym which is supposed to be the best out there, put on by the Olympic weight lifting association). but that doesn't mean I don't know anything about it. I study every chance I get on kinesiology and body mechanics, which is more than most people do (trainers I mean), so I feel I'm adequate to give advice to most beginner and intermediate weight training.

That said, I don't question your program, stronglifts 5x5 along with other 5x5 or 3x5 programs like that (marc rippetoe et all) are all fine if that's the way you want to go, progressive load techniques are proven to be effective for beginner and intermediate strength training.

My main issue is the timeline.

I'm also skeptical of the total BF% numbers, and that's probably through no fault of your own. Bio-electrical impedance testers are notoriously inaccurate. Even professional level testers (which it sounds like you used) can fluctuate widely in their numbers. The problem resides in the medium they use. Because the human body is so reliant on hydration levels, and because the electrical impulses are measured by resistance (hydration levels effect resistance greatly) you can (and I've seen this happen) take your measurements twice within a 24 hour period and differ by up to 5% (that's right, 5%). So maybe your tools were just a bit off, that would clear up a lot of the incredulity.

2 other factors to take into account.

first is that someone beginning a new exercise program will generally gain a lot of strength for the first 2 or 3 months quickly. This isn't really because of "new muscle growth" at all. It's because of neural adaptation. And for this same reason, they gain weight that LOOKS like new muscle mass. It isn't. See, the body only activates muscle fibers that are needed. Genetically, we'll have a certain amount of muscle fibers in a muscle, whether we use them or not. Unless you are starving yourself to a point where the body is in serious danger, you'll keep most of those fibers. But the brain will essentially "deactivate" them, removing the fluids that they require to function, and not sending electrical impulses to those fibers. So even though you have X number of lbs of muscle mass in a muscle group, you may only use 60% of that mass actively, the other 40% would be dormant (think atrophied, its similar, but not quite as extreme).
When you begin training this muscle group, the body sees the need for more power from that muscle group. It starts re-activating these dormant fibers, and turning those neural pathways back on, this happens far faster than building new muscle mass. So you can shoot up from 60% to 85% or 90% in a matter of weeks. But weight gain comes along with this, glycogen at the muscle site is restored, fluid levels are restored, and blood oxygen levels are raised to feed these newly restored muscles.

so you get weight gain, strength gains, and because the muscle is now invigorated with new fluids, you LOOK more cut and bigger. Do this with 1 muscle group and the weight changes are small (maybe a pound on the bigger muscle groups) but add this to ALL the body, and you're talking 10 to 15 lbs of weight gain without any muscle mass changes.

So you see, I don't have any problem with someone making massive gains over the first few months of a training program, but it's not LBM gains, it's water and fluid weight, which is fine, and healthy, and does provide some small amount of metabolic rate increase, but it's not overly high.

That's probably what happened with you.

Again, as long as you're not trying to say you lost WEIGHT, nothing that happens is particularly shocking to me. But I'm all about classification and clarification.

Joe body builder, who's been doing this for 4 years can't make the kinds of gains you're stating (because of above), and building lean mass is HARD, average for those who are serious is between 1 and 2 lbs a month, for the rest of us, gaining 5 lbs of lean mass in a year is about what to expect.

As to BF%. Yes, if you change to eating healthy and exercise from not, you could lose 5 or 6 percent in a few months (or more if you're obese and dedicate hours a day to it) but once you get into a zone where you are merely overweight or at a healthy BF%, looking for these kinds of losses is unreasonable to say the least.

Doing both at the same time is even harder, again I won't say it's impossible, it's just really hard to keep that kind of thing going, burning the candle at both ends as it were. Most people who do this sort of thing end up working to hard, stressing out, and failing. I don't say that to discourage, I say it as simple fact. if you can keep it going, that's great, but it becomes a drain on the mental faculties after a while, and you really need to be aware of the potential pitfalls of it.

I personally don't ever recommend high demand training to achieve weight loss or body fat loss goals, simply because I usually train the every day person, who only has time to make small changes in their life. Only when a person makes the changes stick for a good 3 or 4 months and can prove to me that they can maintain with little or no stress do I offer them more advanced training and specificity in an area of fitness. And yes, I do refer people who want advanced weight training to other, more experienced trainers, likewise, those trainers refer to me when they need advanced nutrition help or functional athlete training (sadly, far more people want weight training help than do they want to be a better hockey player or football player).


hope this helps clear things up.

-Banks

Good post, let me ask you this, if in the first few months when you are “reactivating” your muscles and replenishing the water and glycogen stores, you would gain overall weight, (everything else staying the same) but you wouldn’t really gain or lose body fat%, except that you weigh more and with the same amount of fat, the % would drop a little??????? Did that make sense?

So in a very generic sense, if I wanted to lose body fat and maintain or maybe increase lean muscle mass, what would be the approach in your opinion? I do about 45min of cardio type exercise a day 5-6 days a week, and right now only lifting twice a week. Right now my goal is to lose body fat, my thinking was as I get closer to my goal weight I would increase my weight lifting and concentrate more on gaining strength and some mass.

I’m 6’2 and I’m thinking I want to end up somewhere just south of 200lbs, at my peak fitness in my early 20’s I probably weighed 185-190 and was probably just north of 10% body fat. Back then we didn’t think about body fat, but looking at pics of people in that % range I would guess I was in that range. Right now I weigh 231, so I’m looking at another 30+ pounds of total body weight, probably more than that in fat, and add some muscle back on, because I’m sure (know) I have lost some muscle mass over the years.

djhavoc

I can personally say that YES it is possible last year my pants were falling (losing fat/weight) but my shirts were fitting me tighter around my chest and biceps/triceps I think every body/person is different just as some can lose weight fast while others it's a much slower process.

SHBoss1673

Good post, let me ask you this, if in the first few months when you are “reactivating” your muscles and replenishing the water and glycogen stores, you would gain overall weight, (everything else staying the same) but you wouldn’t really gain or lose body fat%, except that you weigh more and with the same amount of fat, the % would drop a little??????? Did that make sense?

So in a very generic sense, if I wanted to lose body fat and maintain or maybe increase lean muscle mass, what would be the approach in your opinion? I do about 45min of cardio type exercise a day 5-6 days a week, and right now only lifting twice a week. Right now my goal is to lose body fat, my thinking was as I get closer to my goal weight I would increase my weight lifting and concentrate more on gaining strength and some mass.

I’m 6’2 and I’m thinking I want to end up somewhere just south of 200lbs, at my peak fitness in my early 20’s I probably weighed 185-190 and was probably just north of 10% body fat. Back then we didn’t think about body fat, but looking at pics of people in that % range I would guess I was in that range. Right now I weigh 231, so I’m looking at another 30+ pounds of total body weight, probably more than that in fat, and add some muscle back on, because I’m sure (know) I have lost some muscle mass over the years.

you can do both, my point is really that by attempting to do both aggressively, you'll slow down both significantly, not that you can't achieve it. By both I mean FAT loss and LBM gain (not weight loss, really can't lose total weight while gaining much in the way of lean mass, there are anomalous situations where you will, but not consistently, I.E. maybe some water weight or something like that.)
10% body fat is super aggressive though. That's almost pro body builder type numbers, not saying don't go for it, but just be aware, someone in their 40's will have a very tough time even achieving that, never mind keeping yourself there. I'd say a good goal is about 12%, then if you want to test the limits and try to get below that, go for it, but I wouldn't set that as a goal to start with, it could dissapoint you quite a bit. That weight though, 180 to 200 lb range, is really good. I'm 181 and I'm 6'2", I have about 13 or 14% body fat right now. I'd love to get lower (and I'm trying) but having a full (really full) time desk job makes that hard. Granted, I'm looking to end up around 185 to 190 when it's all said and done, but it'll take me another 8 to 12 months to get there.

A lot of it depends on where your body is currently. If you have high BF% then the body fat will come off faster, if you're already in the teens, it's going to take a lot longer.

freerange

Good post, let me ask you this, if in the first few months when you are “reactivating” your muscles and replenishing the water and glycogen stores, you would gain overall weight, (everything else staying the same) but you wouldn’t really gain or lose body fat%, except that you weigh more and with the same amount of fat, the % would drop a little??????? Did that make sense?

So in a very generic sense, if I wanted to lose body fat and maintain or maybe increase lean muscle mass, what would be the approach in your opinion? I do about 45min of cardio type exercise a day 5-6 days a week, and right now only lifting twice a week. Right now my goal is to lose body fat, my thinking was as I get closer to my goal weight I would increase my weight lifting and concentrate more on gaining strength and some mass.

I’m 6’2 and I’m thinking I want to end up somewhere just south of 200lbs, at my peak fitness in my early 20’s I probably weighed 185-190 and was probably just north of 10% body fat. Back then we didn’t think about body fat, but looking at pics of people in that % range I would guess I was in that range. Right now I weigh 231, so I’m looking at another 30+ pounds of total body weight, probably more than that in fat, and add some muscle back on, because I’m sure (know) I have lost some muscle mass over the years.

you can do both, my point is really that by attempting to do both aggressively, you'll slow down both significantly, not that you can't achieve it. By both I mean FAT loss and LBM gain (not weight loss, really can't lose total weight while gaining much in the way of lean mass, there are anomalous situations where you will, but not consistently, I.E. maybe some water weight or something like that.)
10% body fat is super aggressive though. That's almost pro body builder type numbers, not saying don't go for it, but just be aware, someone in their 40's will have a very tough time even achieving that, never mind keeping yourself there. I'd say a good goal is about 12%, then if you want to test the limits and try to get below that, go for it, but I wouldn't set that as a goal to start with, it could dissapoint you quite a bit. That weight though, 180 to 200 lb range, is really good. I'm 181 and I'm 6'2", I have about 13 or 14% body fat right now. I'd love to get lower (and I'm trying) but having a full (really full) time desk job makes that hard. Granted, I'm looking to end up around 185 to 190 when it's all said and done, but it'll take me another 8 to 12 months to get there.

A lot of it depends on where your body is currently. If you have high BF% then the body fat will come off faster, if you're already in the teens, it's going to take a lot longer.

Thanks, yes 10% might not be in my future, and I'm just kind of throwing numbers out there, I will adjust as I learn more, like I said back in the day, we really didn't think in terms of body fat%, like is common today. Yeah at my peak I had striation, nothing like a pro, but pretty cut for a regular gym rat.

Wileyjoe

you can do both, my point is really that by attempting to do both aggressively, you'll slow down both significantly, not that you can't achieve it. By both I mean FAT loss and LBM gain (not weight loss, really can't lose total weight while gaining much in the way of lean mass, there are anomalous situations where you will, but not consistently, I.E. maybe some water weight or something like that.)
10% body fat is super aggressive though. That's almost pro body builder type numbers, not saying don't go for it, but just be aware, someone in their 40's will have a very tough time even achieving that, never mind keeping yourself there. I'd say a good goal is about 12%, then if you want to test the limits and try to get below that, go for it, but I wouldn't set that as a goal to start with, it could dissapoint you quite a bit. That weight though, 180 to 200 lb range, is really good. I'm 181 and I'm 6'2", I have about 13 or 14% body fat right now. I'd love to get lower (and I'm trying) but having a full (really full) time desk job makes that hard. Granted, I'm looking to end up around 185 to 190 when it's all said and done, but it'll take me another 8 to 12 months to get there.

A lot of it depends on where your body is currently. If you have high BF% then the body fat will come off faster, if you're already in the teens, it's going to take a lot longer.

Interesting... i am currently at a point in my weight loss where I am trying to decide what to do next. I turn 40 in a few months and am looking to be in great shape for it. I am trying to decide if I should continue on my current path and try to get into single digit BF% or do a stint of bulking. I'm not trying to become a body builder or anything, I just want to look as good as i can at this age and be healthy for myself and my wonderful wife (not to mention a better role model to my kids). How healthy or unhealthy at this age is it to try to get to single digit BF%?

freerange

Here is a great way to tell about where you are by looking at photos of others and what their Body Fat % is. By this I would say I'm between 20-25% now.

http://www.leighpeele.com/body-fat-pictures-and-percentages

ganesha303

Here is a great way to tell about where you are by looking at photos of others and what their Body Fat % is. By this I would say I'm between 20-25% now.

http://www.leighpeele.com/body-fat-pictures-and-percentages

Based on this, I would guess that the OMRON analyzer is probably in the right ball park for me.

Wileyjoe

Yeah, from the photos from that web site it appears that I am in the range where my scans have said I was. I did read up on issues prior to using the scans before hand and am aware of the issues with them. I tried to ensure that my hydration levels were the same each time I was scanned so that they would be consistant.

ganesha303

Banks, thank you for the thoughtful reply. I appreciate you taking the time to do so and for your gentlemanly demeanor.

I'm also skeptical of the total BF% numbers, and that's probably through no fault of your own. Bio-electrical impedance testers are notoriously inaccurate. Even professional level testers (which it sounds like you used) can fluctuate widely in their numbers. The problem resides in the medium they use. Because the human body is so reliant on hydration levels, and because the electrical impulses are measured by resistance (hydration levels effect resistance greatly) you can (and I've seen this happen) take your measurements twice within a 24 hour period and differ by up to 5% (that's right, 5%). So maybe your tools were just a bit off, that would clear up a lot of the incredulity.

I agree that the device has a margin of error. I have worked my way around that as best as possible and do not see fluctuations near what you describe. I hold the unit as directed and am conscious to hold it the same way every time. I take three measurements every morning when I wake up and when there is a difference it is usually around 0.2%. This morning my readings were 16.9%, 16.9% and 16.7%. I usually see little difference within a given week and see them slowly go down over time.

So though these devices are not 100% accurate, I believe they can be accurate enough if used properly and the margin of error should not detract from the story of my progress.

first is that someone beginning a new exercise program will generally gain a lot of strength for the first 2 or 3 months quickly. This isn't really because of "new muscle growth" at all. It's because of neural adaptation. And for this same reason, they gain weight that LOOKS like new muscle mass. It isn't. See, the body only activates muscle fibers that are needed. Genetically, we'll have a certain amount of muscle fibers in a muscle, whether we use them or not. Unless you are starving yourself to a point where the body is in serious danger, you'll keep most of those fibers. But the brain will essentially "deactivate" them, removing the fluids that they require to function, and not sending electrical impulses to those fibers. So even though you have X number of lbs of muscle mass in a muscle group, you may only use 60% of that mass actively, the other 40% would be dormant (think atrophied, its similar, but not quite as extreme).
When you begin training this muscle group, the body sees the need for more power from that muscle group. It starts re-activating these dormant fibers, and turning those neural pathways back on, this happens far faster than building new muscle mass. So you can shoot up from 60% to 85% or 90% in a matter of weeks. But weight gain comes along with this, glycogen at the muscle site is restored, fluid levels are restored, and blood oxygen levels are raised to feed these newly restored muscles.

so you get weight gain, strength gains, and because the muscle is now invigorated with new fluids, you LOOK more cut and bigger. Do this with 1 muscle group and the weight changes are small (maybe a pound on the bigger muscle groups) but add this to ALL the body, and you're talking 10 to 15 lbs of weight gain without any muscle mass changes.

I certainly do not understand the technical details of muscle fibers, fluid retention etc and cannot speak meaningfully to the above other than to say from my experience and anecdotally through the experiences of others, early weight training gets much more dramatic results than later training will. So that validates what you are saying.

Functionally, my sense of logic begs the question, if we are invalidating my change in LBM based on it being more water than anything, when calculating LBM do we remove water from the equation? Since the male body is roughly 60% water, do we take that out for LBM equations? My lay-person's understanding of LBM, which may be flawed, is LBM = weight - (BF% * weight). Does the fact that my muscles are theoretically retaining more water really not count as LBM?

And from a purely utilitarian viewpoint, I have to ask, even if this is true, so what? I look bigger and less fat. I have reduced BF% and actual fat. I am stronger than I have *ever* been. I am comfortable on the beach in a bathing suit. I am succeeding by almost any measure the people on this site would consider useful, and I am doing it in a manner I would consider healthy: free of drugs, hormones, starvation, etc. After doing cardio and fooling around with weight machines, being overly obsessed about my food intake, and making only slow progress, I have found being under the barbell is powerful and dramatic and I want to advocate it to others seeking to make these changes as well.

I personally don't ever recommend high demand training to achieve weight loss or body fat loss goals, simply because I usually train the every day person, who only has time to make small changes in their life. Only when a person makes the changes stick for a good 3 or 4 months and can prove to me that they can maintain with little or no stress do I offer them more advanced training and specificity in an area of fitness. And yes, I do refer people who want advanced weight training to other, more experienced trainers, likewise, those trainers refer to me when they need advanced nutrition help or functional athlete training (sadly, far more people want weight training help than do they want to be a better hockey player or football player).

I have mixed feelings about this. From the standpoint that free weights intimidate people, I get it. For a long time I avoided that part of my gym, and had some false impressions about what goes on there. The reality is SL 5x5 is only three exercises per workout, takes about and hour to hour and a half, three days a week and starts really easy since you just do the bar, tighten your form and add 5lbs each workout. Elderly woman have been able to succeed on this program. So though the concept may seem intimidating, the reality it is quick, efficient, effective and suitable for beginners.

So, for anyone that believes that my story is outlandish or impossible or too good to be true, I challenge you to try Stronglifts.com program for three months. Stick to your three workouts per week, consume .75 - 1gram of protein per lb of body weight daily, get enough sleep, and tell your story here. I would love to hear about your results!