Protein? Eating 6-8 times a day?

hamton

The notion of having to eat 6 meals a day to fuel your metabolism and keep it going is rubbish. Not sure where it got started but it's been beaten into everybody's head. I used to do it and what a pain it was having to pack tiny meals to work in bunch of containers. Then the meals are so small, I'm never quite satisfied.

Now I eat 2 meals a day. I feel fine. Actually better. I don't freak out in long meetings thinking my muscles are wasting away.

The 1 gram per 1lb of body weight is just a easy standard rule for bodybuilding. I believe actual studies show that most people need about .8 gram per 1lb of body weight for weight training exercises.

johnwhitent

Someone may have said this, but one reason why they suggested eating more times and smaller meals per day is to keep your metabolism going. When you get to the point when you haven't eaten for a while and are starving your metabolism has slowed down. I have not heard of 6-8 times per day, but have heard of 5 (maybe 6).

Meal frequency, timing, and size have no effect on metabolic rate. Your metabolism doesn't "slow down" when you don't eat. Some studies have shown around an 8% decline after 60 hours of fasting. I assume you eat more frequently than that.

Depends on what you mean by meabolisim. If we use the street level understanding to simply mean burning calories, then small frequent meals do affect metabolism. According to Covert Bailey in his book "Smart Exercise" it takes energy to digest food, so eating frequent small meals keeps the body burning more calories throughout the day. As he points out, this does not mean that eating is exercise nor should we eat all day just to burn more calories! But there is value in eating several small meals throughout the day rather than larger less frequent meals. Bailey is a nutritionist degreed in biochemistry from MIT and author of numerous books on nutrition, fitness, and the human body so I think he knows what he is talking about.

johnwhitent

Nutritionist and renowned health and fitness speaker Dr Ann Kulze begs to differ! I listened to her on NPR yesterday, 6/07/11, and virtually everything I wrote came from her. She used protein as an example, stating that the human body can only process 20 to 25 grams at one time so we need our protein intake spread throughout the day so the body can handle it efficiently. She said her own sons are body builders and drink protein drinks with up to 70 grams of protein per drink and she constantly tells them that all over 20 to 25 grams goes straight to fat, but being boys they don't listen! She states that protein spread thru the day will keep us feeling full and allows the body to process it. Eating large meals containing large amounts of protein is inefficient and contributes to obesity and other issues. I have Dr Ann's books and listen to her weekly. She is one of the foremost nutritionist and highly respected medical doctors in the country. I'm going with her advice myself.

I'm not sure if you're serious. If you aren't, I laughed, if you are, I'm slightly concerned. Lol.



Edit: Reason being, I can not think of a time that I've seen more information contained in one post. Again, comical if using sarcasm, concering if you think that it's true.

I have cited names and statistics from experts in the field. Of course I believe it, Dr Ann Kulze and Covert Bailey are two of the country’s foremost nutritionist. They are highly respected experts with degrees from MIT and USC and decades of research and published works in medical journals to back them up. They are just two of many that advance the health and fitness of the world with sound medical advice. I could name many others who are on the same page but that seems overkill. Should I believe you or the experts?

mapexdrummer69

Someone may have said this, but one reason why they suggested eating more times and smaller meals per day is to keep your metabolism going. When you get to the point when you haven't eaten for a while and are starving your metabolism has slowed down. I have not heard of 6-8 times per day, but have heard of 5 (maybe 6).

Meal frequency, timing, and size have no effect on metabolic rate. Your metabolism doesn't "slow down" when you don't eat. Some studies have shown around an 8% decline after 60 hours of fasting. I assume you eat more frequently than that.
Depends on what you mean by meabolisim. If we use the street level understanding to simply mean burning calories, then small frequent meals do affect metabolism. According to Covert Bailey in his book "Smart Exercise" it takes energy to digest food, so eating frequent small meals keeps the body burning more calories throughout the day. As he points out, this does not mean that eating is exercise nor should we eat all day just to burn more calories! But there is value in eating several small meals throughout the day rather than larger less frequent meals. Bailey is a nutritionist degreed in biochemistry from MIT and author of numerous books on nutrition, fitness, and the human body so I think he knows what he is talking about.

I am now under the impression you are completely serious and just extremely misinformed.

hamton

Here is an article by Alan Aragon addressing the 20-30gram protein limit:
http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/

I will quote near the bottom.
"For example, Soeters and colleagues compared two weeks of IF involving 20-hour fasting cycles with a conventional diet [13]. Despite the IF group’s consumption of an average of 101 g protein in a 4-hour window, there was no difference in preservation of lean mass and muscle protein between groups.

In another example, Stote and colleagues actually reported an improvement in body composition (including an increase in lean mass) after 8 weeks in the IF group consuming one meal per day, where roughly 86 g protein was ingested in a 4-hour window [14]."

That fasting group only consumed 1 meal a day. Based on the 20/4 split, it sounds like they were using the warrior diet.

johnwhitent

@mapexdrummer69 - Sent you a PM to avoid overloading the topic with our disagreement.

Rhodium1976

I think my question goes here... but if there's a more appropriate place for it, then please let me know and I'll move it to the appropriate spot.

I meet with a personal trainer on Monday and we talked briefly about nutrition. I'm uncertain about two of his suggestions. First he suggested that I eat 6-8 times a day rather than the 3 meals and a snack that I've been eating. He also suggested that I should be eating 1g of protein per pound of my lean body weight. According to my total weight and body fat percentage, he calculates that I have about 110 lb of lean weight. So, he says I should be eating about 110g of protein a day.

My concerns are that it seems that eating 6-8 times a day may provide more calories than I need and may encourage me to overeat and that 110g of protein is far more than I need (especially since I'm only doing light to moderate strength training).

In regards to protein needs, this is a very informative link to calculate. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=121703981







In regards to the second topic, meal timing and frequency are irrelevant to weight loss. There are no metabolic advantages to eating 6 meals a day vs. 3 meals a day. Eat when it is convenient for you. Meal frequency, timing, and size should be based on personal preference.

This.

I see why we agree, bb.com has much better nutritional information than this site.

mynameisuntz

Nutritionist and renowned health and fitness speaker Dr Ann Kulze begs to differ! I listened to her on NPR yesterday, 6/07/11, and virtually everything I wrote came from her. She used protein as an example, stating that the human body can only process 20 to 25 grams at one time so we need our protein intake spread throughout the day so the body can handle it efficiently. She said her own sons are body builders and drink protein drinks with up to 70 grams of protein per drink and she constantly tells them that all over 20 to 25 grams goes straight to fat, but being boys they don't listen! She states that protein spread thru the day will keep us feeling full and allows the body to process it. Eating large meals containing large amounts of protein is inefficient and contributes to obesity and other issues. I have Dr Ann's books and listen to her weekly. She is one of the foremost nutritionist and highly respected medical doctors in the country. I'm going with her advice myself.

I'm not sure if you're serious. If you aren't, I laughed, if you are, I'm slightly concerned. Lol.



Edit: Reason being, I can not think of a time that I've seen more information contained in one post. Again, comical if using sarcasm, concering if you think that it's true.

I have cited names and statistics from experts in the field. Of course I believe it, Dr Ann Kulze and Covert Bailey are two of the country’s foremost nutritionist. They are highly respected experts with degrees from MIT and USC and decades of research and published works in medical journals to back them up. They are just two of many that advance the health and fitness of the world with sound medical advice. I could name many others who are on the same page but that seems overkill. Should I believe you or the experts?

You are letting their credentials blind you from critical thought. Rather than asking for their sources or WHY they believe what they do, you are too busy being awed by their educational background. Let me post some other perspectives based on empirical study:

People got that idea from a study that stated the following: “…we speculate that no more than 5-6 times daily could one ingest this amount (~20 g) of protein and expect muscle protein synthesis to be maximally stimulated.”

Read the following two studies which contradict the findings of that study and show a poor research design: Campbell B, et al. International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: protein and exercise. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007 Sep 26;4:8. // Tipton KD, Wolfe RR. Protein and amino acids for athletes. J Sports Sci. 2004 Jan;22(1):65-79.

Furthermore:

"Arnal and colleagues found no difference in fat-free mass or nitrogen retention between consuming 79% of the day’s protein needs (roughly 54 g) in one meal, versus the same amount spread across four meals" See: Arnal MA, et al. Protein feeding pattern does not affect protein retention in young women. J Nutr. 2000 Jul;130(7):1700-4.

"When Arnal and colleagues applied the same protocol to the elderly population, the single-dose treatment actually caused better muscle protein retention than the multiple-dose treatment" See: rnal MA, et al. Protein pulse feeding improves protein retention in elderly women. Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Jun;69(6):1202-8.

"For example, Soeters and colleagues compared two weeks of IF involving 20-hour fasting cycles with a conventional diet. Despite the IF group’s consumption of an average of 101 g protein in a 4-hour window, there was no difference in preservation of lean mass and muscle protein between groups." See: Soeters MR, et al. Intermittent fasting does not affect whole-body glucose, lipid, or protein metabolism. Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 Nov;90(5):1244-51.

"So, is there a limit to how much protein per meal can be effectively used? Yes there is, but this limit is likely similar to the amount that’s maximally effective in an entire day. What’s the most protein that the body can effectively use in an entire day? The short answer is, a lot more than 20-30 g. The long answer is, it depends on several factors. In most cases it’s not too far from a gram per pound in drug-free trainees, given that adequate total calories are provided" - Alan Aragon, nutritionist.

Ask that nutritionist for sources. This is a field of science, and as such all opinions must stem from empirical research. Post some evidence that supports the idea that the body can only absorb 20-30g protein per sitting. And even more importantly, post evidence stating the circumstances when amino acids are converted to lipids. Much like glucose, this is a relatively rare process.

mynameisuntz

Here is an article by Alan Aragon addressing the 20-30gram protein limit:
http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/

I will quote near the bottom.
"For example, Soeters and colleagues compared two weeks of IF involving 20-hour fasting cycles with a conventional diet [13]. Despite the IF group’s consumption of an average of 101 g protein in a 4-hour window, there was no difference in preservation of lean mass and muscle protein between groups.

In another example, Stote and colleagues actually reported an improvement in body composition (including an increase in lean mass) after 8 weeks in the IF group consuming one meal per day, where roughly 86 g protein was ingested in a 4-hour window [14]."

That fasting group only consumed 1 meal a day. Based on the 20/4 split, it sounds like they were using the warrior diet.

Haha, should have seen this post before referring to the same sources.

mapexdrummer69

So, out of all of this, I think it's safe to gather that meal timing, size, and frequency have no metabolic advantages.


All comes to personal preference.

johnwhitent

Perhaps I did not make clear why I was citing the experts as I did. I am not "awed by their credentials" at all. Up to that point in the conversation no proof had been advanced to support the position that mapexdrummer69 and others had taken - just assertions. Go back and read the posts in order and you will see that I am right (and guilty as well.) I cited experts to bring the conversation up from just one person’s assertion against another’s. I introduced expert opinion rather than personal assertion. I was accused of being misinformed and felt it appropriate to cite the sources of my information. Their education and expertise does not awe me but simply illustrates that I am not making things up. Subsequently several post have been made to substantiate mapexdrummer69 and similar opinions with blogs and studies. Now this is progress! Folks I'm here to learn and grow not to prove my point.

I totally agree that we should be making decisions based on empirical evidence from controlled studies of the highest quality, not opinion. Posting these links advances that cause and I am appreciative that they were posted. I have now read all of the cited works including most of the references and I am better informed. But that does not mean that I embrace all that is contained there. I have read too much to the contrary and my own experience with smaller more frequent meals has been excellent, though personal experience is of no value to anyone but the person experiencing it! And personal experience also shows me that eating protein throughout the day helps me feel full and eat less, regardless of how my body handles it. Again, that is personal and of no import to anyone else, but for me it confirms what I have been taught by respected experts. Their recommendations have led to success for me in health and fitness and I will continue to follow their advice.

It is unfortunate that I cannot post links since my information came from books and a radio show rather than the internet. But I did cite the authors and the books so anyone so inclined can check the information. Thank you all for the lively conversation.

irridia

captain obvious here: Unless you are diabetic/pre diabetic and then it absolutely DOES matter and make a difference, and carbs should be consumed w/a protien, some fiber, or fat to slow down glucogenisis. I only point out because I'm often amazed at how many people with diabetes or who've been diagnoses as pre-diabetic don't actually know about their condition and how foods affect their blood sugar.

:bigsmile:

mynameisuntz

captain obvious here: Unless you are diabetic/pre diabetic and then it absolutely DOES matter and make a difference, and carbs should be consumed w/a protien, some fiber, or fat to slow down glucogenisis. I only point out because I'm often amazed at how many people with diabetes or who've been diagnoses as pre-diabetic don't actually know about their condition and how foods affect their blood sugar.

:bigsmile:

Glucogenesis? Glycogenesis? Or gluconeogenesis?

You said, "UNLESS you are prediabetic/diabetic." Did you mean to say, "ONLY if you are prediabetic/diabetic does meal timing matter"?

mapexdrummer69

My apologies,


Please view this link for empirical studies on meal frequency:


http://www.leangains.com/search/label/Meal Frequency

irridia

captain obvious here: Unless you are diabetic/pre diabetic and then it absolutely DOES matter and make a difference, and carbs should be consumed w/a protien, some fiber, or fat to slow down glucogenisis. I only point out because I'm often amazed at how many people with diabetes or who've been diagnoses as pre-diabetic don't actually know about their condition and how foods affect their blood sugar.

:bigsmile:

Glucogenesis? Glycogenesis? Or gluconeogenesis?

You said, "UNLESS you are prediabetic/diabetic." Did you mean to say, "ONLY if you are prediabetic/diabetic does meal timing matter"?

I can't speak to it mattering unless you in fact are diabetic or pre. In that case I know it matters. and I actually don't remember the med term for converting food to glucose... *snickering* I was hungry when I wote that and I'm hitting my protien after a hard work out so no blood for my brain currently... lol.

mynameisuntz

I can't speak to it mattering unless you in fact are diabetic or pre. In that case I know it matters. and I actually don't remember the med term for converting food to glucose... *snickering* I was hungry when I wote that and I'm hitting my protien after a hard work out so no blood for my brain currently... lol.

Yes, when you have some sort of clinical condition, then your meal's composition can be important. Outside of those who are diabetic/insulin resistant, however, it doesn't matter.

Gluconeogenesis = conversion of fat/amino acids to glucose. Glycogenesis = conversion of glycogen to glucose.

Troll

Trust me, protien changes everything. I weigh 107 lbs and try to get 2 g per pound of bodyweight (not just the lean weight). I do heavy training, though.

Most people balk at the 6-8 rule, but i try not to eat more than about 300 calories at every meal, based on what i need to get in a day.

If you're worried about the excess protien messing up your food intake, i suggest Nectar (juice flavored) protein powder, it's 100 calories, no carbs and no sugar (or aspartame) per scoop with 24 g protein. For a protein powder it's also low in sodium and so far the peach is the only flavor i disliked. I keep one in the fridge and swig on it all day on top of the several protien replacement meal bars i eat (i am notorious for forgetting to eat my meals, i have an alarm set on my phone to remind me!)

It sounds crazy, but 1-1.5 g/pound of weight helps to build MORE lean muscle which burns even MORE fat faster.

Glucocorticoid

Well, there are SOME advantages to more frequent, smaller meals...only in that after a certain calorie limit (which varies from person to person, but let's say between 400-800), your body will just convert the extra to fat because it exceeds what is useable at the time.

So if you are eating three big meals, like 800-1000 calories each (which I'm guessing you aren't, since you're on this site), then switching to the six small meals would be better. For some people who tend to eat two tiny meals and a huge dinner, that's why they see weight loss when they switch to six smaller meals.

If you are spreading out your calories more or less evenly and eating what MFP (or another site or a dcotor) has calculated as the right amount of total calories per day for your height/weight, then you should be fine, whether it's three meals or six or ten.

This is not an advantage because it is incorrect. It will just take longer to digest. The TEF (thermic effect of food) is the same at the end of the day.

chrisdavey

One more link on the topic of meal frequency myths
http://www.leangains.com/2010/10/top-ten-fasting-myths-debunked.html

I've done 3 meals per day and lost fat, I've done 6 meals per day and lost fat and I've done 2 meals per day (leangains style IF) and lost fat.

Do whatever works for you.

jessievb87

Wow, this turned into a lively topic! Thanks all for your input and the references. It sounds like info conflicts, but most seem to be a fan of doing what works for you.