Carbs - friend or foe?
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No, I don't believe so. Even in diets with poor macronutrient balance, it's still fat that is the major fuel source when compensating a caloric deficit - specifically a deficit that is not too steep. A high protein diet will increase the amount of fat that is used as fuel, indeed, but insufficient protein doesn't immediately mean you start losing all lean mass; it just reduces the amount of fat that gets lost per pound of body weight lost.Wouldn't this depend on a few things like exercise routine, current BF%, body type (endo, meso or ecto)
Agreed - but I'm asking her. I think the basic markers of generally good health are pretty universally accepted. You don't have to bench press 2x your body weight and you don't have to run a marathon, but being free of CVD, cancer, general disability, etc. are pretty much a general consensus.And healthy is in itself a subjective word. Some people would say a healthy diet would meet all the micronutrient RDI's, others focus on macro's, others focus on specifics (possibly medically related). How long is a piece of string thing.
makes sense to me0 -
Foe for me...totally agree with moderation in "Good Carbs" and high fiber. I've been seeking counseling from a nutritionist and Dr. who advise that "good carbs" in moderation are good, natural sugar only..no artificial sweetener because they are proven to induce sugar cravings and if you have as much to lose as I do (130-150) changing your body to burn it's own fat instead of the carb's you consume will definitely speed the process. For me, carbs and sugar are issues and both must be in moderation 50 - 100g Day, no "root" veggies for now and no Grapes or Bananas for now due to high sugar content. This keeps my cravings for those things down so I'm more successful in my choices and I feel more satisfied longer when consuming protein, veggies and good fruits. For folks who totally live for bread, sugar, etc. (i'm a total carb addict) reducing sugar and carbs can only be productive in their weight loss..but NO carbs isn't the answer....moderation with "good"...Just my opinion...0
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Unused sugar is turned to fat? What about glycogen? Did you forget that carbs are stored as glycogen?Any sugar your body does not burn turns to fat. You may lose weight temporarily by restricting calories, but it will not last long, and you would basically have to starve yourself to keep up that kind of diet.
I'm not talking about red kidney beans, though. I asked about white rice and vegetables, where there will be an overall lack of protein. The diet will be overwhelmingly carb-based.On a diet of rice and red kidney beans:
Yes - which I believe is the answer you're looking for, as it contains both protein and carbs, which your body needs to function properly. Adding a little fat will help. And don't forget the exercise.
In terms of weight loss, you said you have to lower carb intake. Why is this diet, even though the macronutrients are comparable, going to result in more weight loss than eating a diet with the same calories/macronutrients as pure sugar?
Not talking about general health - SOLELY talking about weight loss.
Glycogen is stored mostly in the liver for quick retrieval, and some gets stored in the muscles. The reason bodybuilders have to bulk up on carbs is because glycogen is used as energy, and they have to have the energy to build their muscles and compete.
"...excess of carbohydrate intake, exceeding bodily energy expenditure needs, will result in weight gain. " (T. Astorino, M.S. & Len Kravitz, Ph.D., ) http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article folder/glycogen.html.
If you are an endurance athlete, you may need "60-70% of carbs," according to Maria I. Martos, (2011), but for the general public, and I'm willing to say quite a few on MFP, a high carb diet is the reason they, and myself, are here. I'm being redundant, but again, "Any excess glucose is stored in adipose tissue as fat." (M.I.Martos, 2011) http://www.sagewoodwellness.com/Doc0006.htm.
Combining vegetables to get complete protein is possible. Vegetarians do it all the time, although I do know several who are obese, and clearly not healthy. Personally, I like lean meat and fish with my meals.
How can you discuss weight loss without discussing health? IMO, the two go hand-in-hand, but I'll attempt to humor you. I believe this is the statement you're looking for: If you are looking to lose weight, you could basically eat anything you wanted as long as you had a deficit.
Go ahead and eat all the all the high-fat foods, all the sugar, all the junk food, all the alcohol, all the high-carb stuff - in any combination, remain at a deficit, which is set at 500 on this site so that you lose weight, and then prove to me you have a healthy body. You cannot divide having a healthy weight and being healthy. You prove it if you can. I'm waiting.0 -
What do you believe glycogen capacity to be, exactly? 100g carbs? 200g carbs? 400g carbs?Glycogen is stored mostly in the liver for quick retrieval, and some gets stored in the muscles. The reason bodybuilders have to bulk up on carbs is because glycogen is used as energy, and they have to have the energy to build their muscles and compete.
"...excess of carbohydrate intake, exceeding bodily energy expenditure needs, will result in weight gain. " (T. Astorino, M.S. & Len Kravitz, Ph.D., ) http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article folder/glycogen.html.
How many carbs do you think we're able to store before we undergo DNL ( de novo lipogenesis - conversion of carbs to fat).
Correct, and same question stands - how do you define "excess"? When, according to you, does liver and muscle glycogen max out?If you are an endurance athlete, you may need "60-70% of carbs," according to Maria I. Martos, (2011), but for the general public, and I'm willing to say quite a few on MFP, a high carb diet is the reason they, and myself, are here. I'm being redundant, but again, "Any excess glucose is stored in adipose tissue as fat." (M.I.Martos, 2011) http://www.sagewoodwellness.com/Doc0006.htm.
They should go hand in hand, but they don't always. Look at patients with anorexia. Of course this is an extreme, but it implies that some weight loss is unhealthy whereas other weight loss is healthy. If you look at it like a spectrum, I was curious to know where on the spectrum you place weight loss with a carb-based diet.Combining vegetables to get complete protein is possible. Vegetarians do it all the time, although I do know several who are obese, and clearly not healthy. Personally, I like lean meat and fish with my meals.
How can you discuss weight loss without discussing health? IMO, the two go hand-in-hand, but I'll attempt to humor you. I believe this is the statement you're looking for: If you are looking to lose weight, you could basically eat anything you wanted as long as you had a deficit.
I ask because the Okinawan diet is heavily based on white rice and starchy vegetables; neither of which, if I'm not misinformed, are complete proteins. Their diet consists of anywhere between ~70-90% carbohydrates. And yet they are the longest living population with the lowest rate of disability in old age.
How do you define healthy? Remember the professor who went on the Twinkie diet? Lost 27 pounds, improved HDL and LDL, triglycerides, etc. What do you make of that?Go ahead and eat all the all the high-fat foods, all the sugar, all the junk food, all the alcohol, all the high-carb stuff - in any combination, remain at a deficit, which is set at 500 on this site so that you lose weight, and then prove to me you have a healthy body. You cannot divide having a healthy weight and being healthy. You prove it if you can. I'm waiting.0 -
Foe for me...totally agree with moderation in "Good Carbs" and high fiber. I've been seeking counseling from a nutritionist and Dr. who advise that "good carbs" in moderation are good, natural sugar only..no artificial sweetener because they are proven to induce sugar cravings and if you have as much to lose as I do (130-150) changing your body to burn it's own fat instead of the carb's you consume will definitely speed the process. For me, carbs and sugar are issues and both must be in moderation 50 - 100g Day, no "root" veggies for now and no Grapes or Bananas for now due to high sugar content. This keeps my cravings for those things down so I'm more successful in my choices and I feel more satisfied longer when consuming protein, veggies and good fruits. For folks who totally live for bread, sugar, etc. (i'm a total carb addict) reducing sugar and carbs can only be productive in their weight loss..but NO carbs isn't the answer....moderation with "good"...Just my opinion...
This is exactly what I mean!!0 -
carbs can be friend or foe depends on your personal chemistry. Myself the are defiantly foe. I can be perfect on a caloriies but if too much carbs i hit a brick wall. other can eat almost all the cals in carbs and still have the weight fly off. you just have to figure out what works for you
Agreed again. I can eat ice cream or deep fried chicken til the cows come home (and I eat them too) but as soon as I put a bun on em, I gain. Also, I have to say, since I've dropped wheat products I feel fantastic.0 -
Ice cream has a lot of sugar, though. Usually.Agreed again. I can eat ice cream or deep fried chicken til the cows come home (and I eat them too) but as soon as I put a bun on em, I gain. Also, I have to say, since I've dropped wheat products I feel fantastic.0 -
Ice cream has a lot of sugar, though. Usually.
Yup, but I can eat it. I didn't start dropping weight until I dropped the bread. It misses me. I'm learning not to miss it. I think my body processes the sugar well, but not the starch. I can't eat potatoes without gain either.0 -
Ice cream has a lot of sugar, though. Usually.
Not Paleolithic ice cream.0 -
See, I'm really not clear where the strawman is. I can see yours pretty clearly, though. I never once said, meant to say, or implied that what I say works for me should be taken as a sign that it will work for you, or that opinion should count the same as good science. I'm not sure how you got that impression.
Also, it seems clear to me that when I say 'essential', I mean is necessary for robust health and well-being, and you take that to mean 'will die or become significantly ill without', so hammering on it over and over as if it was a big 'gotcha' or whatever is just pointless (and ineffective) personal needling.
Anyway, those two points cleared up, I'd like to reiterate that in answer to the actual question at hand, it really doesn't matter what percentage of your calories is coming from carbs when it comes to weight loss. Cut calories, and eat real food. Track your food and how you feel. Play with it until you find a balance that makes you feel good, and that you can enjoy. If your weight loss slows down or stops, play with it some more. Maybe that means talking to a nutritionist, or maybe that means looking at some of the things that other people have successfully tried, and saving yourself some money. It's not taking anyone's opinion as gospel. It's called self-experimentation, and it works GREAT, even without wasting dozens or hundreds of hours studying the science or paying an expert to do it for you, running all sorts of tests and all that. You are smart enough to figure it out for yourself, and mostly it just entails listening to your body. Is it good that people study the subject scientifically? Absolutely. But giving that work-in-progress too much credence is just pointless. The suggestion to simply 'eat less, move more, and eat real food' is enough detail for the vast majority of people, the vast majority of the time, and most of the rest can be figured out on the fly, organically, for all but the most weight and/or fitness obsessed.
Quite frankly, I don't care what sports nutritionists do or think, because I'm not a competitive athlete, looking to get maximum performance, and I have no real interest in becoming one. I'm of the firm opinion that the whole obsession with optimization is actively harmful to the millions of people who simply need to eat less and move more, to say nothing of the people who make themselves miserable trying to get smaller or 'fitter' than they need to, pursuing ridiculously restrictive diets, dumping billions a year on supplements, all that crap. Leave the science to the scientists and stop obsessing over the details. We'll all be better off for it.
Strawman argument.
Look man, I'm really not trying to be rude here. I'm sure you're a smart guy and I've already been getting warnings that even using the phrase "logical fallacy" is somehow mean so I'll try and give it a rest. Just stop posting things that don't have to do with what was being discussed.
No one is arguing that psychological aspects and different metabolic aspects don't play a factor in diet and health in general. However, unless you have blood work done that shows something as a condition (hypothyroidism, low testosterone, etc) then it shouldn't be taken into account.
Other than that, I'm not really going to respond much to the rest of your post. You're saying that because statistics and studies are imperfect, we should not follow their results. Instead, we're supposed to follow the results of people who say "this worked for me, you should therefore do it" as if that is somehow better. No. Just plain....NO. We go with the best scientific approach at the time and that's how it works. That's how all sports nutritionists operate, all exercise physiologists operate and all those who are invested in the scientific community operate. It has nothing to do with my ego, your ego or anyone else. It has to do with a scientific approach to statements such as those seen in this thread ("carbs are essential" etc etc)
So, until peer reviewed and control group studies are presented to prove what I say wrong, I will call out mis-information as I see it. If you don't appreciate that, I suggest you take it up with the numerous organizations who fund studies to further advance our knowledge of the subject. Thanks.0 -
Nor paleolithic cream puffs?Ice cream has a lot of sugar, though. Usually.
Not Paleolithic ice cream.0 -
What ever happened to the original poster of this thread? Has anyone heard from her? Oh, probably not because egos have hijacked her thread. I understand if you all have this much arguement and debate, which is fine, but maybe you should start a thread of your own :grumble:
As for evawilkerson, I love carbs and could never survive on a low-carb diet. I have however, tried to change my diet so I'm getting carbs from healthier places. I would rather get carbs from a banana, where I get numerous other nutritional benefits, than say from a pop or candy which offers little to no other nutritional value.0 -
The source of the carbohydrates need to be considered when answering the friend or foe questions.
Almost all foods contain a % of carbs. However, if you are relying on fast acting carbs, starchy carbs, refined carbs and you are wanting to lose weight then they are simply a foe.
Foods such as bread, pasta, rice and generally used to 'bulk' our meals, and make us feel full.
If you mix flour and water it makes a glue like product - how much nutritional value is in that?
Forget the term carb, focus on the source, and the nutritional/biochemical value of the food0 -
What do you believe glycogen capacity to be, exactly? 100g carbs? 200g carbs? 400g carbs?Glycogen is stored mostly in the liver for quick retrieval, and some gets stored in the muscles. The reason bodybuilders have to bulk up on carbs is because glycogen is used as energy, and they have to have the energy to build their muscles and compete.
"...excess of carbohydrate intake, exceeding bodily energy expenditure needs, will result in weight gain. " (T. Astorino, M.S. & Len Kravitz, Ph.D., ) http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article folder/glycogen.html.
How many carbs do you think we're able to store before we undergo DNL ( de novo lipogenesis - conversion of carbs to fat).
Correct, and same question stands - how do you define "excess"? When, according to you, does liver and muscle glycogen max out?If you are an endurance athlete, you may need "60-70% of carbs," according to Maria I. Martos, (2011), but for the general public, and I'm willing to say quite a few on MFP, a high carb diet is the reason they, and myself, are here. I'm being redundant, but again, "Any excess glucose is stored in adipose tissue as fat." (M.I.Martos, 2011) http://www.sagewoodwellness.com/Doc0006.htm.Combining vegetables to get complete protein is possible. Vegetarians do it all the time, although I do know several who are obese, and clearly not healthy. Personally, I like lean meat and fish with my meals.
How can you discuss weight loss without discussing health? IMO, the two go hand-in-hand, but I'll attempt to humor you. I believe this is the statement you're looking for: If you are looking to lose weight, you could basically eat anything you wanted as long as you had a deficit.
They should go hand in hand, but they don't always. Look at patients with anorexia. Of course this is an extreme, but it implies that some weight loss is unhealthy whereas other weight loss is healthy. If you look at it like a spectrum, I was curious to know where on the spectrum you place weight loss with a carb-based diet.
I ask because the Okinawan diet is heavily based on white rice and starchy vegetables; neither of which, if I'm not misinformed, are complete proteins. Their diet consists of anywhere between ~70-90% carbohydrates. And yet they are the longest living population with the lowest rate of disability in old age.
How do you define healthy? Remember the professor who went on the Twinkie diet? Lost 27 pounds, improved HDL and LDL, triglycerides, etc. What do you make of that?Go ahead and eat all the all the high-fat foods, all the sugar, all the junk food, all the alcohol, all the high-carb stuff - in any combination, remain at a deficit, which is set at 500 on this site so that you lose weight, and then prove to me you have a healthy body. You cannot divide having a healthy weight and being healthy. You prove it if you can. I'm waiting.
I've never known any anorexics who preferred a high-carb diet, but it couldn't hurt them - at their low weight, neither would a few hundred Twinkies, at least in the initial stage of putting on weight. That's not to say if they were able to turn around and start eating, they wouldn't need to cut down on carbs if they became carb addicts who ate nothing but junk food.
I haven't run across any anorexics on this site, although I've met several people who only manage to eat 1/2 of their calorie recommendations. I fall into that group too, although with carb cycling, I am able to meet it every other day. It's a trade off I have to accept when I'm trying to balance my fat and sugar intake with carbs and protein until I find what works for me in my present condition. High carbs don't work for me. I do have enough energy to get in an hour of workouts even on the days I only eat pure protein, and I am losing weight, which is my goal.
At this point and time, with a physical disability, and having to rely on a wheelchair for mobility, I am more concerned with being able to find the best way for me to lose weight so that when I have total hip surgery, my recovery rate will be faster. Before I became disabled, I was very active. I raised livestock, was able to lift 100lbs, wrangled 250lb animals every 6 weeks, and Mon-Fri I worked on a power plant where I was up and down scaffolding and 15 flights of stairs several times a day. I preferred stairs to the elevator, because with 12 bodies in a small box, it quickly becomes overheated in the summer, and overcrowded in the winter. I relied heavily on carbs duriing the week. I weighed 140lbs., which is considered normal weight for me at 5'6." The reason I relied on carbs more was because I worked 7 days a week, with a 12 hr shift M-F, and I had a hard time holding onto weight. My body likes carbs just a little too well! I should know, as I've been in it all my life and have always struggled with carbs.
The Okinawan diet does not sound much different from the food I was eating before I became disabled, or for the most part, from what I grew up eating, only when I was younger, my body burned carbs quite a bit more efficiently. Carbs give you energy and you need energy when you are physically active.
I ate 2 cups of whole-fat yogurt, and 2 glasses of whole-fat milk Mon-Fri, and that was my only protein during the week. The weekend was when I filled up on protein.
As for the Twinkie Professor, he lost weight by consuming less calories, and losing fat is why his HDL, LDL, and triglyceriedes improved. Now, the question is, will he be able to keep that weight off?0 -
What do you believe glycogen capacity to be, exactly? 100g carbs? 200g carbs? 400g carbs?
How many carbs do you think we're able to store before we undergo DNL ( de novo lipogenesis - conversion of carbs to fat).
QUOTE:
If you are an endurance athlete, you may need "60-70% of carbs," according to Maria I. Martos, (2011), but for the general public, and I'm willing to say quite a few on MFP, a high carb diet is the reason they, and myself, are here. I'm being redundant, but again, "Any excess glucose is stored in adipose tissue as fat." (M.I.Martos, 2011) http://www.sagewoodwellness.com/Doc0006.htm.
Correct, and same question stands - how do you define "excess"? When, according to you, does liver and muscle glycogen max out?
"Exactly" is never used in scientific debate, and everything is debateable. Glycogen stores are highest in the muscle, although it is also stored in the liver. Given that carb loading is popular (correct form of nutrition?) among bodybuilders/weight lifters, and even my preference for eating a high carb diet as I explained in my previous post due to my lifestyle, loading up on bread, rice, peas, carrots, and other carb foods high in the GI index (a study thatI already know you find debateable, so let's don't), I know that it works for quick energy. Without research, and with a reference to being highly physically active, I would gesss it could be 400g of carbs if not higher - again, dependant on the activity level.
How many carbs does it take to reach DNL? lol That's like asking "how many licks does it take to reach the center of the Tootsie Roll pop? :laugh: Do you lift weights? How much do you lift, how often, and at what point of doing reps do you have muscle failure? I don't have access to a gym that is equipped to accomodate me and my wheelchair, so I have to use freeweights or a resistance band. I cannot lay flat on my back to do bench presses, and I cannot do any exerrcises on the weight machine that puts strain on my hip joints. I can and do break a sweat with my workouts, and I do them to muscle failure. I also do the complete set of muscles consecutively. I intend to get my body back in shape, and I know it works -FOR ME. Mind you, that is not a recommendation for anyone. Anyhow, I'd be willing to bet that your workouts are much more strenuous than mine. I am also twice your age. It would take much less carbs to turn to fat in my body than it would for you. As to how many, I'll let you know after I've tracked my food long enough to get a grip on what I can eat and what I can't to help me lose weight and keep it off.
With the ratio we are given here at MFP, knowing that my carb intake has to be different now than it was when I was physically able to be strenuously active all day long, I would say up to 50%, and maybe more. Like I said in my last post, I was eating mostly carbs during the week and loading up on protein (lean meat & fish) on the weekends. As tired as I was after work, I could have probably used more carbs. Twelve hours in 110ºF temps 5 days a week saps quite a bit of energy out of one's body.0 -
Actually, for a 70 kg man with ~45% lean body mass you can assume around 700g - 1200g of carbohydrate storage.
http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pcbi.10009600
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