Fat Loss vs Scale Weight Loss

Lozze

I've also said that muscle is heavier than fat. I know that although two things can weigh the same it doesn't mean that one will not be heavier than the next.

I know you said you don't want to discuss this, but please listen to me. You are wrong on this. You have very good intentions, but you are wrong. You are going to misinform people and that is dangerous.

If a bag of rocks weighs ten pounds and a bag of feathers weight ten pounds they both weigh ten pounds. Neither is heavier than the other.

In fact here's a picture example to make it somewhat clearer.



Both the fat and the muscle are the exact same weight. However the muscle is smaller, because muscle is denser than fat. Neither weighs more than the other.

AZackery

I've also said that muscle is heavier than fat. I know that although two things can weigh the same it doesn't mean that one will not be heavier than the next.

I know you said you don't want to discuss this, but please listen to me. You are wrong on this. You have very good intentions, but you are wrong. You are going to misinform people and that is dangerous.

If a bag of rocks weighs ten pounds and a bag of feathers weight ten pounds they both weigh ten pounds. Neither is heavier than the other.

In fact here's a picture example to make it somewhat clearer.



Both the fat and the muscle are the exact same weight. However the muscle is smaller, because muscle is denser than fat. Neither weighs more than the other.

Lozze, drop it. Respect my wish.

foodforfuel

bump to read later

Lozze

Lozze, drop it. Respect my wish.

If you are going to post, you need to post correctly. I think the other thread got very, very nasty and childish, but if you are going to post giving people information, please make sure it's right.

Lozze

Lozze, drop it. Respect my wish.

If you are going to post, you need to post correctly. I think the other thread got very, very nasty and childish, but if you are going to post giving people information, please make sure it's right.

AZackery

If you are going to post, you need to post correctly. I think the other thread got very, very nasty and childish, but if you are going to post giving people information, please make sure it's right.

Lozze, I'm going to only ask you this one time and after you answer my question. I ask that you please don't bring the subject up anymore.

By volume which one is heavier? 5 pounds of muscles or 5 pounds of fat?

Lozze

By volume which one is heavier? 5 pounds of muscles or 5 pounds of fat?

By volume it's muscle.

This page explains it very well

AZackery

By volume which one is heavier? 5 pounds of muscles or 5 pounds of fat?

By volume it's muscle.

This explains it very well 5lb of muscle is still the same weight as 5lb of fat.

Lozze, to say that the other thread had all those English teachers and scientists they should have known what I was talking about. Instead, all of my haters on that group tried to make it seem as if I am stupid and didn't know what I was talking about. I doubt that those people are truly English teachers and scientists.

Education doesn't make a person smart. I wouldn't want to say that I'm a doctor and don't know what a heart is.

When I see people say that muscle weighs more than fat. I tell them that the only way that muscle weighs more than fat is if the pounds of muscles is higher than the pounds of fat.

Example: 10 pounds of muscles weighs more than 10 pounds of fat.

I tell them that muscle is heavier than fat. Which is a true statement, even you have proved that I am right.

5 pounds of fat and 5 pounds of muscles weighs the same, which is 5 pounds. But, the 5 pounds of muscles is heavier than the 5 pounds of fat.

So, yes, two things can weigh the same and one can be heavier. That's what I was trying to tell the smart people on the other group.

I can pick up a 25lb child, but a 25lb dumbbell to me is heavy. Yet, the child and dumbbell weighs the same.

Now, I'm done with this issue. My thread is about fat loss vs scale weight loss. Please respect that.

dilysin

I think you are confusing the word dense with heavy.

It is true that muscle is heavier than fat per cubic metre, hence it is more dense, the way that water is more dense, and therefore heavier than oil etc. However when comparing two things that weigh the same (ie. 2kg of muscle and 2kg of fat) they weigh the same, therefore are as heavy as each other.

When trying to lift things that weigh the same the effort involved in lifting them may be different depending on what particular muscles you are using to lift and if you are using one hand or two, or just the awkwardness (I am not sure that is actually a word) of the object you are lifting.

so muscle is heavier (per cubic metre) and more dense than fat, but 2kg of muscle is just as heavy as 2kg of fat, and 2kg of muscle has less volume than 2kg of fat.

I appreciate that you are passionate about your work on preferential fat loss, however it seems that you are a bit confused with the definitions, I don't really understand what you are saying in regard to this, and how it relates to the post , perhaps if you googled the definitions for heavy, weight and volume and sorted them out you could clear it up for us?

servilia

5 pounds of fat and 5 pounds of muscles weighs the same, which is 5 pounds. But, the 5 pounds of muscles is heavier than the 5 pounds of fat.

NO NO NO NO NO

I'm sorry but you are 100% absolutely wrong.

5lbs of muscle is NOT heavier than 5lbs of fat!! Absolutely NOT!

It is DENSER, not HEAVIER. You're confusing the two words.

When two things weigh the same, NEITHER is heavier than the other.

meerkat70

5 pounds of fat and 5 pounds of muscles weighs the same, which is 5 pounds. But, the 5 pounds of muscles is heavier than the 5 pounds of fat.

NO NO NO NO NO

I'm sorry but you are 100% absolutely wrong.

5lbs of muscle is NOT heavier than 5lbs of fat!! Absolutely NOT!

It is DENSER, not HEAVIER. You're confusing the two words.

When two things weigh the same, NEITHER is heavier than the other.

It's astounding.
Time is fleeting.
Madness takes its toll.
But listen closely
Not for very much longer.
I've got to keep control.....

myofibril

Enough.

The OP has put forward her argument. There has been a rebuttal. The reader can decide which logic and explanation they find more convincing.

There are so many more important questions in the realm of fat loss: what is a suitable calorie deficit for my current body composition, what is the role of active recovery and how should it be incorporated, how should the trainee structure their training regime and should it include resistance training, what are reasonable macros for my goals etc.

But what do people want to bang on...and on....an on about? Some ridiculous semantic argument which in the overall scheme of things is minutiae.

It's not surprising so many people don't get the results they want if they devote more time to discussing the minor details than the fundamentals.

Move on....

Lozze

But what do people want to bang on...and on....an on about? Some ridiculous semantic argument which in the overall scheme of things is minutiae.

It's not semantics. It's wrong information. There is nothing wrong with providing correct information to a person, but it's dangerous when you provide wrong info.

(and Az I won't respond to you anymore as you've asked me not to)

AZackery

The muscle is heavier than fat has been dropped on my end. I ask that everyone that wants to continue that discuss, to please create a thread and discuss it there. Leave my thread.

dilysin

If i was an OP and obviously very passionate about a topic, to the point of wanting to share my knowledge and research because I thought it would benefit others, I would want to know if there were any inaccuracies.

It is evident that the OP is extremely passionate and has put a lot of time and effort into her research which is great, but flawed reasoning takes away from all of this and consequently will perhaps make people less inclined to respect the work she has done.

myofibril

It's not semantics. It's wrong information. There is nothing wrong with providing correct information to a person, but it's dangerous when you provide wrong info.

Fair enough. I have seen it discussed many, many times and you know what? I have NEVER yet seen the discussions move anybody forwards in practical terms on their fat loss programme.

Seems like largely a waste of time to me.

myofibril

If i was an OP and obviously very passionate about a topic, to the point of wanting to share my knowledge and research because I thought it would benefit others, I would want to know if there were any inaccuracies.

It is evident that the OP is extremely passionate and has put a lot of time and effort into her research which is great, but flawed reasoning takes away from all of this and consequently will perhaps make people less inclined to respect the work she has done.

Your two posts have been excellent....

dilysin

My issue is not the semantics themselves, I am comfortable with my own understanding of weight and heaviness etc, but more the way it is affecting the entire post. If someone is giving very detailed advice in regard to their weight loss technique, and part of the argument is wrong because of an apparent lack of understanding of some of the basic concepts, then it makes it very difficult to respect the rest of the theory.

I think that OP would get a lot more respect for the hard work she has done if she researched the terminology a little and consequenlty gave the impression of someone who really knows the ins and outs of the whole process.

AZackery

Again, I'm asking you all to go and create your own thread. Leave my thread. I haven't created my thread for people to come in here and be messy. Please respect my request. You feel that I am wrong, okay. Stick to your opinion and move on.

My thread is about Fat Loss vs Scale Weight Loss. If you think that what I have shared in my thread is wrong, okay. But, If I can suggest anything. I would suggest that you use your own body against what I have shared to prove that what I have shared is wrong. I can't speak for anyone elses body, but I can speak for mine. I understand what I am talking about and my body knows what I am talking about.

myofibril

I think there is a lot of merit in the the information the OP has put forward, especially put forward the concept of tracking changes in body composition using methods over and above the scale and how to calculate LBM and fat mass etc.

Azackery, I do think you have your terminology confused in some aspects. It saddens me a little that it WILL detract from your overall message which is a good and positive one. I think you probably know more overall than some people are giving you credit for.

I do hope you continue striving and moving forwards. If you want to discuss any aspects of training or nutrition then I would be glad to do so in the future.

Take care,

Michael

dilysin

I think there is a lot of merit in the the information the OP has put forward, especially put forward the concept of tracking changes in body composition using methods over and above the scale and how to calculate LBM and fat mass etc.

Azackery, I do think you have your terminology confused in some aspects. It saddens me a little that it WILL detract from your overall message which is a good and positive one. I think you probably know more overall than some people are giving you credit for.

I do hope you continue striving and moving forwards. If you want to discuss any aspects of training or nutrition then I would be glad to do so in the future.

Take care,

Michael

Nicely put, I am a bit OCD which is why it is bothering me so much, theory seems sound, fat does not make one look pretty it is all floppy and unshapely, nice lean body mass on the other hand a nice shape makes. Fat is very important, but also so very dangerous and worse still, so very tasty, what an evil double-edged sword you are..

I really should be off to bed, goodnight all.

servilia

AZ,
I agree your overall message is good, that people should pay attention to the changes in their body composition. So far so good.

But once you start a thread you cannot tell people not to respond. I am not insulting you, calling you names, etc. I am correcting some misinformation for the benefit of everyone.

If you don't want people to respond, write in a blog with closed comments. Here we have the right to respond.

AZackery

I think there is a lot of merit in the the information the OP has put forward, especially put forward the concept of tracking changes in body composition using methods over and above the scale and how to calculate LBM and fat mass etc.

Azackery, I do think you have your terminology confused in some aspects. It saddens me a little that it WILL detract from your overall message which is a good and positive one. I think you probably know more overall than some people are giving you credit for.

I do hope you continue striving and moving forwards. If you want to discuss any aspects of training or nutrition then I would be glad to do so in the future.

Take care,

Michael

Michael, you see my terminology as being wrong. Okay. So many other people are wrong as well. That includes personal trainers. By the way are you a personal trainer and nutritionist? You've said that if I wanted to discuss any aspect of training and nutrition that I could talk to you.

I'm not a personal trainer. Well, I'm my own personal trainer. I'm not a nutritionist either. But, I'm in the medical field and familiar with nutrition. My education didn't stop in college. I'm self educated as well. I'm forever increasing my education.

ThePhoenixRose

"Posts by members, moderators and admins should not be considered medical advice and no guarantee is made against accuracy."

Am I the only one who's read this statement that appears at the bottom of EVERY page of EVERY thread? For those of you who say they are correcting the "misinformation" for the sake of others... If you're smart enough to figure out the difference in weight/mass/volume/density/etc., why fo you assume the rest of us aren't?

Just leave this poor girl alone! She's said her piece, is trying to help people, and has been trying to be respectful. I read the entire other thread as well. Most of you ended up being just plain mean. I understand the argument. I get what she's trying to say, as do the rest of you, who've tried to prove your point over and over. Obviously AZ is sticking to her guns.

Take what you will from this thread... Agree. Disagree. Whatever. Those of you who are arguing - just leave it alone. If you don't like it, don't read it.

I'm generally not one to stir the pot, but this has gotten to me. I believe people are generally good. I believe people want to help. I believe people do not start out with the intent to belittle anyone. I appreciate those of you who have reinforced these beliefs.

I wish all of you continued luck on your journey, whatever it may be.

AZackery

"Posts by members, moderators and admins should not be considered medical advice and no guarantee is made against accuracy."

Am I the only one who's read this statement that appears at the bottom of EVERY page of EVERY thread? For those of you who say they are correcting the "misinformation" for the sake of others... If you're smart enough to figure out the difference in weight/mass/volume/density/etc., why fo you assume the rest of us aren't?

Just leave this poor girl alone! She's said her piece, is trying to help people, and has been trying to be respectful. I read the entire other thread as well. Most of you ended up being just plain mean. I understand the argument. I get what she's trying to say, as do the rest of you, who've tried to prove your point over and over. Obviously AZ is sticking to her guns.

Take what you will from this thread... Agree. Disagree. Whatever. Those of you who are arguing - just leave it alone. If you don't like it, don't read it.

I'm generally not one to stir the pot, but this has gotten to me. I believe people are generally good. I believe people want to help. I believe people do not start out with the intent to belittle anyone. I appreciate those of you who have reinforced these beliefs.

I wish all of you continued luck on your journey, whatever it may be.

Thank you Ktkoopman

myofibril

By the way are you a personal trainer and nutritionist? You've said that if I wanted to discuss any aspect of training and nutrition that I could talk to you.

Lol - no. I toyed with the idea of being a trainer a while ago but decided the big initial pay cut wasn't for me;)

Most of my knowledge simply comes from a love affair with health and fitness for many years now and keeping my knowledge updated through my own efforts. I do have a competitive athletic background but that was some time ago. In addition, a significant part of my job requires being able to understand and apply scientific and medical information and data.

I am glad your thread has calmed down and I think the discussions were useful.

tigersword

By volume which one is heavier? 5 pounds of muscles or 5 pounds of fat?

Impossible question. If they both weigh five pounds, then they are not volumetrically equal. If they are equal volumetrically, then they will not both weigh 5 pounds. It is quite physically impossible.

servilia

By volume which one is heavier? 5 pounds of muscles or 5 pounds of fat?

Impossible question. If they both weigh five pounds, then they are not volumetrically equal. If they are equal volumetrically, then they will not both weigh 5 pounds. It is quite physically impossible.

This.

AZackery

Lol - no. I toyed with the idea of being a trainer a while ago but decided the big initial pay cut wasn't for me;)

Most of my knowledge simply comes from a love affair with health and fitness for many years now and keeping my knowledge updated through my own efforts. I do have a competitive athletic background but that was some time ago. In addition, a significant part of my job requires being able to understand and apply scientific and medical information and data.

I am glad your thread has calmed down and I think the discussions were useful.

You can get certified and be a part-time personal trainer. I plan on becoming a personal trainer one day. That will not be my full time job.

myofibril

You can get certified and be a part-time personal trainer. I plan on becoming a personal trainer one day. That will not be my full time job.

Yeah, I guess that is one option. Good luck with your goal.

Hey, I want to give you something to consider. People often talk about losing 1lb of fat which as I have said also goes by the name of white adipose tissue. 1lb of fat is 454 grams but of that around 90% is lipid on average. So actually only 400 grams is stored triglycerides - TGs (what people are really seeking to lose on a fat loss routine using a process known as lipolysis.)

Therefore, even if you see a 1lb loss on the scale which ties up with maintaining LBM but losing 1lb of fat given your caliper measurements it will not all be stored TGs.

In addition as has been referenced before given the way your body partition calories 100% fat loss with no loss of LBM / muscle isn't really a physiological reality. However say you lost 90% of that 1lb as "fat" and 10% as muscle that is only 54 grams we are talking about. Therefore worrying about whether it is 100% fat loss or 90% fat loss with 10% muscle is rather pointless in practical terms.

This really goes back to my point that people who get too caught up in the numbers can miss the overall point that it is trends that are more important, not specific numbers. Just something to consider...