Paleo/Primal Dieters

Grokette

With Paleo / Primal you don't count calories...............you stick to the allowed foods of fats, protein, vegetables, throw in some fruit and nuts on occasion and dairy if you are tolerant.............

What?

Why wouldn't you count calories on paleo or primal when you otherwise would?

just like with Atkins, there is no need.

So you're telling me that it's impossible to get fat eating primal or paleo and that there is no need to count calories because you're not eating grains and dairy?

In other words, the only way to get fat is by eating grains and dairy?

I'm a little on edge here with your post because it was short and didn't actually explain your position.

When you control your carbs to a lower number, then calories don’t matter so much because your body is then a “fat burning” system…as you increase your carbs (such as the 120 carbs in question) it stands to reason that calories would then come into play because you’re transitioning your fuel system from a fat burner back over to a calorie burning system.

RangerSteve

Losing the grains helps us reset our metabolisms so most don't need to count calories because we naturally start consuming a more normal amount and what we do consume is metabolized better rather than stored as fat.

Oh boy, another baseless claim.

You're right. I can eat steak, potatoes, avocado and almonds by the boatload and I won't gain any weight.

Acg67

When you control your carbs to a lower number, then calories don’t matter so much because your body is then a “fat burning” system…as you increase your carbs (such as the 120 carbs in question) it stands to reason that calories would then come into play because you’re transitioning your fuel system from a fat burner back over to a calorie burning system.

your body becomes a "fat burning" system in a ketogenic diet because you are eating more fat, when you eat more carbs you burn more carbs. a ketogenic diet has no metabolic advantage nor is it superior for fat loss to other diets, all diets work due to caloric restriction. even on keto diets if you are i na caloric surplus eating only fat and pro you'd gain weight

RangerSteve

When you control your carbs to a lower number, then calories don’t matter so much because your body is then a “fat burning” system…as you increase your carbs (such as the 120 carbs in question) it stands to reason that calories would then come into play because you’re transitioning your fuel system from a fat burner back over to a calorie burning system.

Can I ask you something? Do you even know what a calorie is? (serious question)

What you said makes no sense at all. I don't even know what to say. You literally just made a bunch of stuff up and there is no possible way to argue against it.........

bluebird321

I am beginning to eat this way. In the past I was successful w/ Atkins, but as soon as I returned to the SAD the weight (and heath problems) returned. I just feel better when I am eating a high protein and fat, low carb meal plan. I usually track my food so I am aware of how many calories I am eating, but I have noticed that if I keep my calories as low as this site is suggesing I feel deprived and have carb cravings.

I have a question about the daily nutrition values on MFP. For those of you that eat paleo/primal what % do you keep your fat, carbs, and protein?

I haven't kept track of the ratios. My goal has always been to keep sugar, carbs low and processed food non-existent (when possible). That has worked for me up this point.

ladyhawk00

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Ladyhawk00
MyFitnessPal Forum Moderator

questionablemethods

Calorie counting turns me into a bit of a Crazy Lady and I end up getting too obsessed with how I eat (not the case for everyone, but that's how I am). I've found that I'm so satisfied while eating paleo that I don't really need to count calories. I still typically count once a week or so, just to gauge how everything stacks up. When I have counted, I am right in the 1600-1800 range (at or slightly below maintenance for me) -- some days it has been hard for me to even hit 1200, though.

If your eyeball estimates are close to when you actually count then it's not an issue.

My problem is that when I am eating more starches and less fat, I am hungry all the time at my maintenance level of calories. I feel the need to eat all the time and, unless I am VERY good about monitoring my intake (hence the Crazy Lady), I gain.

However, the idea that someone doesn't have to worry about the laws of the universe affecting the body because of X food being eaten completely violates all laws of common sense.

I never said that. However, anecdotally, I have heard of guys trying to gain on a paleo diet who were taking shots of olive oil to be at a calorie surplus and were having trouble gaining without upping the carbs. I don't know why or how much of a surplus they were eating, but it sounded as though this was not typical for them -- they were not your typical hard-gainer. I don't think they were defying the laws of thermodynamics or anything, I'm just saying maybe they thought that they were "eating like crazy" and still had a hard time eating at a surplus. That's not great if you are a guy who WANTS to gain, but it supports other peoples' claim that it is an easy diet to "stick with" insofar as being able to eat to satiety and not gain fat.

RangerSteve

Calorie counting turns me into a bit of a Crazy Lady and I end up getting too obsessed with how I eat (not the case for everyone, but that's how I am). I've found that I'm so satisfied while eating paleo that I don't really need to count calories. I still typically count once a week or so, just to gauge how everything stacks up. When I have counted, I am right in the 1600-1800 range (at or slightly below maintenance for me) -- some days it has been hard for me to even hit 1200, though.

If your eyeball estimates are close to when you actually count then it's not an issue.

My problem is that when I am eating more starches and less fat, I am hungry all the time at my maintenance level of calories. I feel the need to eat all the time and, unless I am VERY good about monitoring my intake (hence the Crazy Lady), I gain.

However, the idea that someone doesn't have to worry about the laws of the universe affecting the body because of X food being eaten completely violates all laws of common sense.

I never said that. However, anecdotally, I have heard of guys trying to gain on a paleo diet who were taking shots of olive oil to be at a calorie surplus and were having trouble gaining without upping the carbs. I don't know why or how much of a surplus they were eating, but it sounded as though this was not typical for them -- they were not your typical hard-gainer. I don't think they were defying the laws of thermodynamics or anything, I'm just saying maybe they thought that they were "eating like crazy" and still had a hard time eating at a surplus. That's not great if you are a guy who WANTS to gain, but it supports other peoples' claim that it is an easy diet to "stick with" insofar as being able to eat to satiety and not gain fat.

I actually agree with you. I did paleo for two years myself to see if I liked it. It's a lot easier to feel full when you're eating veggies and meat for most of your diet. As far as having trouble gaining weight, that's also a possibility. I lost a lot of weight when I was on it. I think this is more from correlation as opposed to causation though. I would assume (anecdotal guess) that most people who gravitate towards a paleo diet are the same people who are fit to begin with or are in the early stages of getting fit. Either way, energy burning is happening and that means weight loss. Plus, when you eat the same type of foods every day, the appeal to eat more isn't always there. I bet a lot of it is psychological. Either way, I support the diet, I just don't support the people who make false claims and then tell other people they're wrong for what they're doing.

We're practically neighbors by the way.

edit: And I definitely agree about having more trouble controlling intake when chowing down carb rich foods. 200 calories in a pop tart? Seriously? I can eat 6 of them in a sitting.

anewrac

I've been 80/20 Primal since early February, eating dairy, using MFP's calorie guidelines (1200 net calories/day to lose 2 lbs. per week), keeping carbs <100 g/day. I've lost 61 lbs. without feeling hungry or deprived, while eating mostly non-processed whole foods. GERD/heartburn is gone--whether due to weight loss or reduced gluten intake, I don't know. Since I'm now within 10 lbs. of my goal weight, I've recently reduced my weekly loss goal to 0.5 lb., and the weight is still coming off.

Mark Sisson of marksdailyapple.com says you can reap the benefits eating 80%Primal/20%conventional.

Supposedly, you can just eat primally and lose weight, but MFP guidelines + Primal worked wonders for me!

That's awesome!!! Well done you x

sandislim

I eat mostly paleo - I tried atkins but I never lost weight - too much fat/protein/dairy and reliance on sweeteners. Paleo is a lot more realistic for me. I avoid dairy as much as possible but I'm allergic to coconut so occasionally I will have dairy where there is no alternative but it doesn't make me feel good (cream gives me asthma now). I avoid grains - I used to cheat but have taken the cheats out and I feel much better, I guess I just have to get used to not eating these foods any more. I haven't tried unconventional grains though like bulgur and quinoa - maybe when I've got my weight down futher I might experiment.
I eat fruit and this means I can avoid artificial sweeteners! I just use berries instead and I don't get blood sugar problems with berries either.
I eat mostly vegetables from my garden which beats organic any day of the week - but I don't buy organic unless I can afford it or its on offer.
I also count calories. The lifestyle is hard to stick too, but I've incorporated some solutions to certain problems (takeaways/ready meals/cheat days) and found some strategies that seem to be working for the moment. This isn't an easy lifestyle though, but I think its pretty obvious that it is healthier lifestyle for many people - when supermarkets start catering to that lifestyle (frozen cauliflower rice etc) it will become much easier. But until then it is hard work.

When I eat carbs (sugar/grains) I cannot feel satiety, even when my stomach is distended from food intake - this includes whole grains - I don't know why but thats just how it is for me, I can control my calorie intake much better when I avoid these types of foods.

dawnemjh

I eat mostly paleo - I tried atkins but I never lost weight - too much fat/protein/dairy and reliance on sweeteners. Paleo is a lot more realistic for me. I avoid dairy as much as possible but I'm allergic to coconut so occasionally I will have dairy where there is no alternative but it doesn't make me feel good (cream gives me asthma now). I avoid grains - I used to cheat but have taken the cheats out and I feel much better, I guess I just have to get used to not eating these foods any more. I haven't tried unconventional grains though like bulgur and quinoa - maybe when I've got my weight down futher I might experiment.
I eat fruit and this means I can avoid artificial sweeteners! I just use berries instead and I don't get blood sugar problems with berries either.
I eat mostly vegetables from my garden which beats organic any day of the week - but I don't buy organic unless I can afford it or its on offer.
I also count calories. The lifestyle is hard to stick too, but I've incorporated some solutions to certain problems (takeaways/ready meals/cheat days) and found some strategies that seem to be working for the moment. This isn't an easy lifestyle though, but I think its pretty obvious that it is healthier lifestyle for many people - when supermarkets start catering to that lifestyle (frozen cauliflower rice etc) it will become much easier. But until then it is hard work.

When I eat carbs (sugar/grains) I cannot feel satiety, even when my stomach is distended from food intake - this includes whole grains - I don't know why but thats just how it is for me, I can control my calorie intake much better when I avoid these types of foods.

How do you get in your fiber?? If I avoid apples and grains I have a hard time getting more than 15 grams of fiber per day and I need AT LEAST 30 gms per day to keep everything regular. ???

questionablemethods

I actually agree with you. I did paleo for two years myself to see if I liked it. It's a lot easier to feel full when you're eating veggies and meat for most of your diet. As far as having trouble gaining weight, that's also a possibility. I lost a lot of weight when I was on it. I think this is more from correlation as opposed to causation though. I would assume (anecdotal guess) that most people who gravitate towards a paleo diet are the same people who are fit to begin with or are in the early stages of getting fit. Either way, energy burning is happening and that means weight loss. Plus, when you eat the same type of foods every day, the appeal to eat more isn't always there. I bet a lot of it is psychological. Either way, I support the diet, I just don't support the people who make false claims and then tell other people they're wrong for what they're doing.

Can I ask why you don't still eat this way?

And I definitely agree about having more trouble controlling intake when chowing down carb rich foods. 200 calories in a pop tart? Seriously? I can eat 6 of them in a sitting.

And it isn't even the really obvious crap like PopTarts. Know how easy it is for me to eat 200 calories of oatmeal? And then I'm hungry an hour later.

Grokette

I eat mostly paleo - I tried atkins but I never lost weight - too much fat/protein/dairy and reliance on sweeteners. Paleo is a lot more realistic for me. I avoid dairy as much as possible but I'm allergic to coconut so occasionally I will have dairy where there is no alternative but it doesn't make me feel good (cream gives me asthma now). I avoid grains - I used to cheat but have taken the cheats out and I feel much better, I guess I just have to get used to not eating these foods any more. I haven't tried unconventional grains though like bulgur and quinoa - maybe when I've got my weight down futher I might experiment.
I eat fruit and this means I can avoid artificial sweeteners! I just use berries instead and I don't get blood sugar problems with berries either.
I eat mostly vegetables from my garden which beats organic any day of the week - but I don't buy organic unless I can afford it or its on offer.
I also count calories. The lifestyle is hard to stick too, but I've incorporated some solutions to certain problems (takeaways/ready meals/cheat days) and found some strategies that seem to be working for the moment. This isn't an easy lifestyle though, but I think its pretty obvious that it is healthier lifestyle for many people - when supermarkets start catering to that lifestyle (frozen cauliflower rice etc) it will become much easier. But until then it is hard work.

When I eat carbs (sugar/grains) I cannot feel satiety, even when my stomach is distended from food intake - this includes whole grains - I don't know why but thats just how it is for me, I can control my calorie intake much better when I avoid these types of foods.

How do you get in your fiber?? If I avoid apples and grains I have a hard time getting more than 15 grams of fiber per day and I need AT LEAST 30 gms per day to keep everything regular. ???

The increase in fat keeps you regular and the veggies provide the fiber needed. We don't need that much fiber as they claim we do.

dawnemjh

Quote: "The increase in fat keeps you regular and the veggies provide the fiber needed. We don't need that much fiber as they claim we do."
[/quote]

I atually do need that much fiber. If I dont get at least 35-30 grams per day i get into real difficulties (without getting into TMI). That is where I struggle with this plan, getting the right mixtue and getting the fiber as well without going overboard with carbs. Even to get my fiber to 20 my carbs end up going up to high 90's. Still trying to figure this one out.
How many carbs do most of you eat and have success?? After 10 days of this diet I havent lost any appreciable weight, maybe .2 pounds....

phlumpet

I pretty much eat paleo. Lean protein like chicken and fish. I cut the red meat cause I had cholesterol issues but now that is gone and I'm sure this way of eating has helped. Also fresh fruits and veggies, nuts and legumes too. But I have to have my plain fat free Greek yogurt and I am pretty sure that is not considered paleo cause cavemen didn't milk cows. lol I don't eat processed foods either and have recently eliminated eating anything made with any kind of flour. I only eat whole grains occassionally like wheat berries, brown/wild rice, quinoa etc. It has helped me lose weight after a plateau. Is that paleo enough for ya. lol Feel free to friend me

Hi, just FYI, "grains" such as quinoa, wild rice (not brown rice), buckwheat, and amaranth are "pseudograins," actually seeds, gluten-free and easy to digest. So if this fits into your diet, eat them! They are nutritionally awesome. Bob's Red Mill makes a quinoa flour which I substitute sometimes in baking.

Here's some more info about them:
http://thrivein30.com/lessons/lesson-6_superfoods_nutritional-over-achievers-and-how-to-harness-them/

That being said, I could never do paleo because I am a meat-free, dairy-free vegan! For health and ethical reasons. But I do agree with reducing (or avoiding if you have amazing will power) processed foods, sugar and refined grains.

jmeeej

I've been strict Paleo for 6 weeks now and am down 17 lbs total.

I love this diet. I never get hungry.....I have the freedom to skip a meal if I want to because I'm not dying of hunger.....I get to reat rich whole foods.....and I've never felt better.

I promised myself 8 weeks of being 100% strict with no cheating and frankly I don't even want to cheat. Every day I'm learning more and more and and having a lot of fun experimenting with different ones. In fact I have a batch of my own beef jerky in progress at the moment.

jellerose

You're not reading for comprehension. The point is when most of us eat like this we don't WANT to eat things by the boatload so we don't. When eating wheat and grains, yes, it's a continual cycle of hunger and many of us shovel in the calories. When eating those things you listed (except for the potatoes, those are a rare thing for this way of eating if at all) we get full easier on fewer calories. I'm pretty much a textbook example of how it works. Older sedentary chubby female who is losing weight at a nice, calm but steady 2 lb a week pace without going hungry. I do have exceptions, "cheats" that I choose to do, but most of my food on most days is nutritionally dense and filling. The goal calories MFP sets for me are the minimum it sets, 1200, and many days I'm barely hitting that and often under. I may have been less than 100 calories over once or twice, no more than that.

People who are caught in the cycle of hunger with grains have a difficult time understanding this. I sure did until I gave it a try and was amazed that for the first time in years it wasn't hard to find willpower because it wasn't as needed after the first week or so.

I'm not making a baseless claim and whatever your opinion I'm seeing the facts in action in my own life.

Losing the grains helps us reset our metabolisms so most don't need to count calories because we naturally start consuming a more normal amount and what we do consume is metabolized better rather than stored as fat.

Oh boy, another baseless claim.

You're right. I can eat steak, potatoes, avocado and almonds by the boatload and I won't gain any weight.

Grokette

Quote: "The increase in fat keeps you regular and the veggies provide the fiber needed. We don't need that much fiber as they claim we do."

I atually do need that much fiber. If I dont get at least 35-30 grams per day i get into real difficulties (without getting into TMI). That is where I struggle with this plan, getting the right mixtue and getting the fiber as well without going overboard with carbs. Even to get my fiber to 20 my carbs end up going up to high 90's. Still trying to figure this one out.
How many carbs do most of you eat and have success?? After 10 days of this diet I havent lost any appreciable weight, maybe .2 pounds....
[/quote]

I used to think the same thing until I reduced my protein and upped the fat and water intake. My body was regular with in 3 -4 days.

Today is a high carb day for me. By the time I am finished eating tonight I will have consumed 54 grams of carbs, 15 grams of fiber, 98 grams of fat and 59 grams of protein.

What is your fat and water intake like? Those 2 items are more important for proper body function than fiber......

TK421NotAtPost

Losing the grains helps us reset our metabolisms so most don't need to count calories because we naturally start consuming a more normal amount and what we do consume is metabolized better rather than stored as fat.

Ya know, the paleo/primal eating plan is a huge improvement over the standard Western diet (yea, replacing those cans of coca cola with water or coconut water is good... no joke!), but my goodness can the science behind why it can work be any more misunderstood? Hehe, kudos to you... and glad to see people getting good results from this.

jellerose

I was simplifying in my statement, not trying to be scientifically detailed, but are you saying that my body isn't using things like coconut oil and existing fat stores for fuel now rather than the way it was previously storing so much excess sugars (from sweets AND grain products) into fat? I don't keep track of calories to count them, I track to see the breakdown of fats/protein/carbs and to remind myself to make sure to try to make the carbs I do ingest more nutritional veggies. The point I was trying to make was made by others as well, you end up not overeating calories because you're full. That's not all there is to it, the answer is much more complicated but that's a simple answer to those who can't understand why we don't count calories. If they want to read more of the science behind it there are books and blogs full of the information, a simple message board thread isn't going to cover it all.

I CAN eat all I want with this method and still lose weight. The "trick" is I no longer WANT the volume of food I did when eating grains and processed foods/canola oils/ice cream by the bucket, etc. What I WANT ends up being "just the right amount".

SoDamnHungry

It seems interestingly and really sensible, but I enjoy snack cakes too much.

hamton

Damn, I miss the days when I used to tear down cake, ice cream, and soda. Of course, I was heavier too.

queenbcronen

PRIMAL here since the end of June! It has changed my life!

Grokette

Damn, I miss the days when I used to tear down cake, ice cream, and soda. Of course, I was heavier too.

I don't miss any of that stuff, especially after I realized that it was what was making me sick.

TK421NotAtPost

I was simplifying in my statement, not trying to be scientifically detailed, but are you saying that my body isn't using things like coconut oil and existing fat stores for fuel now rather than the way it was previously storing so much excess sugars (from sweets AND grain products) into fat? I don't keep track of calories to count them, I track to see the breakdown of fats/protein/carbs and to remind myself to make sure to try to make the carbs I do ingest more nutritional veggies. The point I was trying to make was made by others as well, you end up not overeating calories because you're full. That's not all there is to it, the answer is much more complicated but that's a simple answer to those who can't understand why we don't count calories. If they want to read more of the science behind it there are books and blogs full of the information, a simple message board thread isn't going to cover it all.

I CAN eat all I want with this method and still lose weight. The "trick" is I no longer WANT the volume of food I did when eating grains and processed foods/canola oils/ice cream by the bucket, etc. What I WANT ends up being "just the right amount".

I wasn't referring to the calorie counting. Paleo/primal eating plans generally do not need to count total calories because of the nature of their diet.

I was referring more toward the reseting of your metabolism and the magical way in which what you consume is metabolized rather than stored as fat. This line of reasoning goes against today's understanding of nutrient intake, oxidation and storage as well as the way your metabolic hormones are affected by your macro-nutrient intake.

MCTs like coconut oil do tend to get used for energy, but for the most part, ingested dietary fat is primarily stored, and eating more of it doesn't affect your fat metabolism to any significant degree. But that doesn't mean you get fat this way. Your body is always is a state of burning fat or storing fat, burning carbs or storing carbs, etc.

But quite frankly, it doesn't really matter. If going Paleo is what leads people toward cessation of cake, cola and other processed crap, then I'm all for it. And for the average person who knows very little about nutrition, a relatively 'fool-proof' plan like the paleo/primal life-style can be a very effective tool. Who cares if the basic process behind the weight loss is completely misunderstood?