low carb or not?

Acg67

Golay A, et al. Similar weight loss with low- or high carbohydrate diets. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Feb, 1996; 63 (2): 174-178.

Yang MU, Van Itallie TB (1976) Composition of weight loss during short term weight reduction. Metabolic responses of obese subjects to starvation and low-calorie ketogenic and non-ketogenic diets. J Clin Invest 58:722–30.

Alford BB, et al. (1990) The effects of variation in carbohydrate, protein, and fat content of the diet upon weight loss, blood values, and nutrient intake of adult obese women. J AM Diet Assoc 90:534–40.

Wing RR, et al. (1995) Cognitive effects of ketogenic weight-reducing diets. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 19:811–6.

questionablemethods

Golay A, et al. Similar weight loss with low- or high carbohydrate diets. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Feb, 1996; 63 (2): 174-178.

Yang MU, Van Itallie TB (1976) Composition of weight loss during short term weight reduction. Metabolic responses of obese subjects to starvation and low-calorie ketogenic and non-ketogenic diets. J Clin Invest 58:722–30.

Alford BB, et al. (1990) The effects of variation in carbohydrate, protein, and fat content of the diet upon weight loss, blood values, and nutrient intake of adult obese women. J AM Diet Assoc 90:534–40.

Wing RR, et al. (1995) Cognitive effects of ketogenic weight-reducing diets. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 19:811–6.

Thanks. I haven't read all of those, but for the first one, I'm not surprised that both groups lost a bunch of weight -- they were each only eating 1000 cals/day, right?

Again, I don't dispute that caloric balance determines weight loss, but the advantage I think that low-carb diets have for many is that they allow for more natural reductions in calories when eating naturally (not in a clinical setting, not tracking every bite that is eaten). I have no idea whether they give a metabolic advantage to metabolically-healthy individuals or even metabolically-deranged individuals. What I would like to see is a long-term study comparing weight gain, instead of loss, on those eating ad libitum low carb/high fat versus those eating high carb/low fat.

Acg67

Again, I don't dispute that caloric balance determines weight loss, but the advantage I think that low-carb diets have for many is that they allow for more natural reductions in calories when eating naturally (not in a clinical setting, not tracking every bite that is eaten). I have no idea whether they give a metabolic advantage to metabolically-healthy individuals or even metabolically-deranged individuals. What I would like to see is a long-term study comparing weight gain, instead of loss, on those eating ad libitum low carb/high fat versus those eating high carb/low fat.

i believe there is a study tracking weight changes on low carb vs other diets, i have to find the citation for it. And you may be right that in ad libitum settings it's easier to restrict cals low carbing, and that is most likely because you're cutting out or severely limiting an entire macronutrient, but i believe also studies show that keto/low carb diets have some of the worst adherence rates (i think that is what made US News rank paleo the worst of like 30 diets, low adherence, i know it as ranked last but forget their rationale).

Also i know there is another observational study that showed atkins showed greater weight loss then 2 or 3 other diets at 3 and 6 months but no difference in weight loss at 1 yr, i have to find the citation for that one as well

LowCarbForLife

Controlled studies have shown no metabolic advantage to keto diets

I don't doubt that such studies exist, just wondering if you could cite. Please and thanks.

not a problem

Johnston CS et. al. Ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets have no metabolic advantage over nonketogenic low-carbohydrate diets. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. (2006) 83: 1055-1061

It is very interesting to me that the et al in that study includes Barry Sears. The actual problem with that study imo was its tiny sample size and the fact that all the obese participants were limited to 1500 calories per day.

The other studies you cite do not address the issue of a metabolic advantage of a ketogenic diet.

Pebble321

To return to the original question... I think it would be a good idea to start thinking about what you are planning to do long term.
Yo have lost a bunch of weight pretty quickly following a restrictive diet, but presumably you aren't planning on living on diet shakes for the rest of your life. And realistically you aren't likely to keep losing weight at this rate either - there is nothing wrong with steady progress as long as you are progressing and learning.
My best suggestion is to look at your diet a meal at a time and start looking for healthy meal options that work for breakfast, lunch, dinner and snacks. This way you can start to phase out the shakes and bars and get back to eating actual food.
As to whether you eat low carb or not - clearly that is a personal choice. Some people obviously respond better to a low carb diet, though that's not my choice of eating pattern. Everyone is different.
Why not try slowly adding back some of the carbs that you miss (for example have raisin toast for breakfast once a week instead of a shake and see how this works for you over a few weeks).
This way you don't have to feel as though you are depriving yourself and you are building up a range of meals and sncks that suit you and your body.

LowCarbForLife

Get back to me when you've read them.

Brehm BJ, et al. A Randomized Trial Comparing a Very Low Carbohydrate Diet and a Calorie-Restricted Low Fat Diet on Body Weight and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in Healthy Women. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2003;88:1617–1623.
Samaha FF, et al. A Low-Carbohydrate as Compared with a Low-Fat Diet in Severe Obesity. N Engl J Med 2003;348:2074–81.
Sondike SB, et al. Effects of a low-carbohydrate diet on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factor in overweight adolescents. J Pediatr. 2003 Mar;142(3):253–8.
Aude YW, et al. The National Cholesterol Education Program Diet vs a Diet Lower in Carbohydrates and Higher in Protein and Monounsaturated Fat. A Randomized Trial. Arch Intern Med. 2004;164:2141–2146.
Volek JS, et al. Comparison of energy-restricted very low-carbohydrate and low-fat diets on weight loss and body composition in overweight men and women. Nutrition & Metabolism 2004, 1:13.
Yancy WS Jr, et al. A Low-Carbohydrate, Ketogenic Diet versus a Low-Fat Diet To Treat Obesity and Hyperlipidemia. A Randomized, Controlled Trial. Ann Intern Med. 2004;140:769–777.
Nichols-Richardsson SM, et al. Perceived Hunger Is Lower and Weight Loss Is Greater in Overweight Premenopausal Women Consuming a Low-Carbohydrate/High- Protein vs High-Carbohydrate/Low-Fat Diet. J Am Diet Assoc. 2005;105:1433–1437.
Gardner CD, et al. Comparison of the Atkins, Zone, Ornish, and learn Diets for Change in Weight and Related Risk Factors Among Overweight Premenopausal Women. The a to z Weight Loss Study: A Randomized Trial. JAMA. 2007;297:969–977.
Shai I, et al. Weight loss with a low-carbohydrate, mediterranean, or low-fat diet. N Engl J Med 2008;359(3);229–41.
Krebs NF, et al. Efficacy and Safety of a High Protein, Low Carbohydrate Diet for Weight Loss in Severely Obese Adolescents. J Pediatr 2010;157:252-8.
Summer SS, et al. Adiponectin Changes in Relation to the Macronutrient Composition of a Weight-Loss Diet. Obesity (Silver Spring). 2011 Mar 31. [Epub ahead of print]
Daly ME, et al. Short-term effects of severe dietary carbohydrate-restriction advice in Type 2 diabetes–a randomized controlled trial. Diabet Med. 2006 Jan;23(1):15–20.
Westman EC, et al. The effect of a low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet versus a low- glycemic index diet on glycemic control in type 2 diabetes mellitus. Nutr. Metab (Lond.)2008 Dec 19;5:36.

Acg67

Get back to me when you've read them.

Brehm BJ, et al. A Randomized Trial Comparing a Very Low Carbohydrate Diet and a Calorie-Restricted Low Fat Diet on Body Weight and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in Healthy Women. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2003;88:1617–1623.
Samaha FF, et al. A Low-Carbohydrate as Compared with a Low-Fat Diet in Severe Obesity. N Engl J Med 2003;348:2074–81.
Sondike SB, et al. Effects of a low-carbohydrate diet on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factor in overweight adolescents. J Pediatr. 2003 Mar;142(3):253–8.
Aude YW, et al. The National Cholesterol Education Program Diet vs a Diet Lower in Carbohydrates and Higher in Protein and Monounsaturated Fat. A Randomized Trial. Arch Intern Med. 2004;164:2141–2146.
Volek JS, et al. Comparison of energy-restricted very low-carbohydrate and low-fat diets on weight loss and body composition in overweight men and women. Nutrition & Metabolism 2004, 1:13.
Yancy WS Jr, et al. A Low-Carbohydrate, Ketogenic Diet versus a Low-Fat Diet To Treat Obesity and Hyperlipidemia. A Randomized, Controlled Trial. Ann Intern Med. 2004;140:769–777.
Nichols-Richardsson SM, et al. Perceived Hunger Is Lower and Weight Loss Is Greater in Overweight Premenopausal Women Consuming a Low-Carbohydrate/High- Protein vs High-Carbohydrate/Low-Fat Diet. J Am Diet Assoc. 2005;105:1433–1437.
Gardner CD, et al. Comparison of the Atkins, Zone, Ornish, and learn Diets for Change in Weight and Related Risk Factors Among Overweight Premenopausal Women. The a to z Weight Loss Study: A Randomized Trial. JAMA. 2007;297:969–977.
Shai I, et al. Weight loss with a low-carbohydrate, mediterranean, or low-fat diet. N Engl J Med 2008;359(3);229–41.
Krebs NF, et al. Efficacy and Safety of a High Protein, Low Carbohydrate Diet for Weight Loss in Severely Obese Adolescents. J Pediatr 2010;157:252-8.
Summer SS, et al. Adiponectin Changes in Relation to the Macronutrient Composition of a Weight-Loss Diet. Obesity (Silver Spring). 2011 Mar 31. [Epub ahead of print]
Daly ME, et al. Short-term effects of severe dietary carbohydrate-restriction advice in Type 2 diabetes–a randomized controlled trial. Diabet Med. 2006 Jan;23(1):15–20.
Westman EC, et al. The effect of a low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet versus a low- glycemic index diet on glycemic control in type 2 diabetes mellitus. Nutr. Metab (Lond.)2008 Dec 19;5:36.

i only checked the first 4, where are the controlled metabolic ward studies that actually control intake?

Acg67

also in those studies there are zero confounding factors that are not controlled for, correct?

funkycamper

I know I'm stepping on a hornet's nest here but you could have 100 studies telling me I'm wrong and I won't believe you. I gained about 60# eating the high-carb/low-fat diet that a dietitian gave me for hypoglycemia. This was on top of the 50# I had already gained through pregnancies, etc. putting me at a high of 237.

I was starving all the time and miserable in so many ways but rarely ate over 1500 calories in a day, usually closer to 1200. I felt like a physical wreck, was exhausted all the time, had severe emotional mood swings including severe temper tantrums, became depressed and suicidal and, of course, was still having glucose highs/crashes which was causing most of these problems. I'm surprised my husband didn't divorce me and that my kids didn't run away from home. It was nasty and I wasn't nice a lot of the time.

It took me years of reading everything I could get my hands on before I ever heard of insulinimia (I know I'm spelling that wrong) but I'm referring to the fact that my body way over produced insulin based on the high carbs making me insulin resistant and, eventually, diabetic. And even longer to consider a low-carb eating plan. One reason why I avoided it is that my taste buds love bread, potatos, rice, etc. It's very hard for me to eat meat unless it's smothered in a casserole, between bread, a pasty, and such. I just don't like it much.

But the reality is that eating more protein and lower carb has made a world of difference to me. I am gradually losing weight without hunger (although I do sometimes have a hard time getting all my calories in), my moods are stable and good, I have more energy, I think more clearly, and my blood sugar readings are much improved.

I struggle to keep my carbs below about 60/day (which seems to be the cut-off for me of what my body can handle) and I never get enough protein but I keep working on it. But I feel and look so much better this way it's worth it to keep trying to perfect this way of eating for me. Oh, and my cholesterol numbers and blood pressure are excellent.

Each side of this argument can find hundreds of studies to support their position. And the other side can poke holes in each of the other sides studies. And I realize my anecdotal personal story isn't going to convince anyone but myself but that's OK.

LowCarbForLife

also in those studies there are zero confounding factors that are not controlled for, correct?

Please make the same disclaimer about the studies you cited.

bcattoes

Depending on your hormones and metabolic environment, you may need to continue doing low carb to lose weight. Not everyone responds favorably to oatmeal, fruit and whole grains.

That said - whatever you decide to do, give your body time to adjust. If you're going to introduce carbs, start with low-glycemic carbs - berries, yams / sweet potatoes that will not spike your insulin.

Couldn't agree more, I recommend anyone to read "Why we get fat" or watch "Fat Head" to get a better understanding how this works and try it out. If not for weight loss but for health benefits.

Like most documentaries, "Fat Head" paints a very distorted and on-sided view of a subject. It is basically a description of gluten intollerance, and a decent one, but it portrays it as if this everyone has it, which is just 100% false. What is described in the movie does not happen to everyone.

awkwwward

Here's my two-cents: years ago, I lost about 20 pounds a month doing no card. It was easy and pretty darn yummy. The weight (and then some!) all came back. When I went mostly vegan last summer, my diet became very carb-based but GOOD carbs (fruit, carb-based veggies like corn, and a whole lot of whole grains) and I lost 20 pounds the first month and another 50 since then. This time it is staying off. No matter what the "diet" you take (calorie counting, low carb, high protein, etc.), you can lose weight on it. There isn't some magic diet formula that works so perfect for everyone - if there was, don't you think we'd be in the US without a lot of the weight troubles we have as a nation? It's all about finding what works for you, your body, your lifestyle and your future. If you love carbs but are trying low carb to lose weight, it probably isn't going to stay off because you'll go right back to the same habits when the diet is "over." Focus on trying to eat healthier long-term to keep the weight off and your body healthy. Good luck!

Acg67

also in those studies there are zero confounding factors that are not controlled for, correct?

Please make the same disclaimer about the studies you cited.

there is one that doesn't control for all confounding factors, the others are metabolic ward studies which do. you posted 0 metabolic ward studies

and back to the question i posed earlier, why doesn't Taubes promote cutting out protein or limiting it, since protein spikes insulin as well and that is supposedly why people get fat?

noneya2010

Depending on your hormones and metabolic environment, you may need to continue doing low carb to lose weight. Not everyone responds favorably to oatmeal, fruit and whole grains.

I absolutely agree. I have done a lot of research on the blood type diet (you can search and get a lot of info on the web about this) and if you read about your specific blood type, it makes complete sense. It goes back to the early days when humans were hunters and gatherers.

When I eat grains, whole wheat, and other healhy carbs, I have a lot of issues from stomach to headaches,e tc. When I focus on staying away from carbs in general like that, I feel totally different. It definately depends upon your metabolic panel, hormones, and I really think ancestorial history, possibly including blood type.

LowCarbForLife

also in those studies there are zero confounding factors that are not controlled for, correct?

Please make the same disclaimer about the studies you cited.

there is one that doesn't control for all confounding factors, the others are metabolic ward studies which do. you posted 0 metabolic ward studies

and back to the question i posed earlier, why doesn't Taubes promote cutting out protein or limiting it, since protein spikes insulin as well and that is supposedly why people get fat?

Because controlling insulin spikes is a matter of degree. The spikes as a result of high GI carbs or worse, than high GI carbs plus protein, are less than that of protein alone. There is also some evidence that insulin increases from protein coincide with increased release of glucagon.
Taubes doesn't demonize insulin, he just makes a case for naturally controlling it as much as possible.

bcattoes

also in those studies there are zero confounding factors that are not controlled for, correct?

Please make the same disclaimer about the studies you cited.

there is one that doesn't control for all confounding factors, the others are metabolic ward studies which do. you posted 0 metabolic ward studies

and back to the question i posed earlier, why doesn't Taubes promote cutting out protein or limiting it, since protein spikes insulin as well and that is supposedly why people get fat?

Because controlling insulin spikes is a matter of degree. The spikes as a result of high GI carbs or worse, than high GI carbs plus protein, are less than that of protein alone. There is also some evidence that insulin increases from protein coincide with increased release of glucagon.
Taubes doesn't demonize insulin, he just makes a case for naturally controlling it as much as possible.

If you really want to know what spikes your blood sugar you need to look at the GL instead of, or in addition to, GI (glycemic index vs glycemic load). GI doesn't give an accurate picture.

Acg67

also in those studies there are zero confounding factors that are not controlled for, correct?

Please make the same disclaimer about the studies you cited.

there is one that doesn't control for all confounding factors, the others are metabolic ward studies which do. you posted 0 metabolic ward studies

and back to the question i posed earlier, why doesn't Taubes promote cutting out protein or limiting it, since protein spikes insulin as well and that is supposedly why people get fat?

Because controlling insulin spikes is a matter of degree. The spikes as a result of high GI carbs or worse, than high GI carbs plus protein, are less than that of protein alone. There is also some evidence that insulin increases from protein coincide with increased release of glucagon.
Taubes doesn't demonize insulin, he just makes a case for naturally controlling it as much as possible.

he does demonize insulin and in fact says only CHO leads to the secretion of it. hence why he also states you can eat as much pro and fat as you want because it won't make you fat (no insulin secretion)

funkycamper

Here's my two-cents: years ago, I lost about 20 pounds a month doing no card. It was easy and pretty darn yummy. The weight (and then some!) all came back. When I went mostly vegan last summer, my diet became very carb-based but GOOD carbs (fruit, carb-based veggies like corn, and a whole lot of whole grains) and I lost 20 pounds the first month and another 50 since then. This time it is staying off. No matter what the "diet" you take (calorie counting, low carb, high protein, etc.), you can lose weight on it. There isn't some magic diet formula that works so perfect for everyone - if there was, don't you think we'd be in the US without a lot of the weight troubles we have as a nation? It's all about finding what works for you, your body, your lifestyle and your future. If you love carbs but are trying low carb to lose weight, it probably isn't going to stay off because you'll go right back to the same habits when the diet is "over." Focus on trying to eat healthier long-term to keep the weight off and your body healthy. Good luck!

Then you really did it wrong when you did low-carb. First, anytime you go on a short-term diet and go back to your old eating habits, you will gain back the weight no matter what type of program it is. Any kind of weight loss eating plan should be a lifestyle change. Second, low-carb means eating lots of vegetables if you're doing it properly. It isn't all bacon (not even mostly bacon).

While I love carbs, carbs don't love me. If I eat more than about 60 grams of carb in a day (yeah, even if they're whole grain or other whole foods like beans), not only does my blood sugar spike but I get severe heartburn. Yeah, bread gives me heartburn, go figure. And I retain water like crazy, no matter how much water I'm drinking to try to flush it out, making me ache all over and my shoes hurt.

Too much fruit does the same thing. I can eat maybe half of a small apple at a time but I must have protein with it (usually peanut butter). If I eat too much fruit, yup, heartburn.

If you're doing Atkins (I'm not), you are supposed to do induction level for about 2 weeks (20 grams carb/day) and then go into the second stage where you gradually add 5 carbs/day until you get to a level where you can't eat anymore carbs a day without having problems. These problems can be any of the ones I've mentioned above that happen to me or it could simply be getting to a level of carb intake where you are no longer losing weight. Some people can only get up to about 30-40 grams/day, some 100 or more, as we all vary. Then once you find the level at which you continue to lose 1-2 pounds per week, you stay there until you get to maintenance at which time you add a few more carbs back in until you get to the level where you maintain your weight in a healthy manner eating a variety of protein, carbs and fats.

It just really bugs when people do low-carb wrong and then blame the eating plan. Sorry for the mini rant.

LowCarbForLife

also in those studies there are zero confounding factors that are not controlled for, correct?

Please make the same disclaimer about the studies you cited.

there is one that doesn't control for all confounding factors, the others are metabolic ward studies which do. you posted 0 metabolic ward studies

and back to the question i posed earlier, why doesn't Taubes promote cutting out protein or limiting it, since protein spikes insulin as well and that is supposedly why people get fat?

Because controlling insulin spikes is a matter of degree. The spikes as a result of high GI carbs or worse, than high GI carbs plus protein, are less than that of protein alone. There is also some evidence that insulin increases from protein coincide with increased release of glucagon.
Taubes doesn't demonize insulin, he just makes a case for naturally controlling it as much as possible.

he does demonize insulin and in fact says only CHO leads to the secretion of it. hence why he also states you can eat as much pro and fat as you want because it won't make you fat (no insulin secretion)

I will let Taubes himself respond to your criticism stating essentially what I stated earlier. The insulin response to protein is only one-third that of CHO.

http://www.livinlowcarbdiscussion.com/showthread.php?tid=2471&pid=58168#pid58168

Taubes himself argues his book was an attempt to review the prevailing wisdom on the cause of obesity and then to propose a new alternative *hypothesis* which should be then tested. I believe that underlying his statement on eating as much protein as you want is the implication that eating protein is self-limiting when you do it in the absence of carbohydrate.

ktsdad

I am currently on MF, but thinking about doing something like you. In reality the MF plan does this too, in the transition phase. What you need to do is slowly put carbs in using fruits and whole grains. I think everyone can agree these are better than white bread and french fries.

From what I've read, most of the rapid weight gain after stopping a low carb diet comes from your body restoring it's glycogen stores around the liver and such (the 'water weight' you lost in the first week). If you are keeping your calories the same, you should top out after you gain your first week's losses back and then start losing again.

For me, I am insulin resistant/ pre-diabetic, whatever you want to call it. I can't do anything white or processed and lose weight. I have been tracking my balance, and I am eating about 45% protein, 30% carbs, and 25% fat per day. My total carbs vary between 80g and 100g per day. This is technically not 'low carb', but it is on the bubble.

For me, I have to log everything I eat using MFP, analyze it and relearn how to eat. The weight loss is just the beginning. I have to learn what types of food my body can handle, and what I need to stay away from.

Try not to think low vs high carb, just try to find a balance that works for you. You have the rest of your life to work on it.