Transforming fat to muscle

vim_n_vigor

OK, hopefully that caught the right people's attention. I know you don't turn fat into muscle! But, I do have a question about muscle.

I do not at all dispute the benefits of weight training, and I include it in my weekly activity. I am confused about one thing though, and it may just be a symantics thing.

I see many posts saying that you can't bulk up or gain muscle when in a caloric deficit, but you can 'wake up' existing muscle.
What does this mean? If I am in a caloric deficit, and weight training, what does that do exactly? What 'benefits' are there for weight training while in a deficit?

Again, I do not dispute the need for weight training. I am just trying to understand what it does while in a deficit vs. maintenance calories vs. surplus of calories.

Chaosdrone

bump

taco_tap

bump..

luv2ash

How much muscle do you want to build? I have some awesome guns and obtianed them while losing weight. I do, however, eat over 100 grams of protein a day.

versuga

bump

vim_n_vigor

How much muscle do you want to build? I have some awesome guns and obtianed them while losing weight. I do, however, eat over 100 grams of protein a day.

It isn't so much abou building the muscle. I know from past experience that I can tone, define, bulk pretty easily. I have a lot of fat to lose before any of that could be visible to others. I am just trying to understand what the weight training does physiologically in the caloric deficit if you can't actually gain muscle.

DannyMussels

You can gain 'strength' without gaining muscle. Basically..say you can lift about 100lbs right now...you may not be using your muscle/strength to its full potential. It may or not be your MAX lift, but for the most part you can't lift anymore.

Through better training and practice, you can start utilizing your muscles better and start using the same amount of muscle, to push a bit more weight. The muscles don't get bigger, you just use them and push them to get a little more out. Think of yourself using 90% of your power currently..then being pushed even futher, gaining 'strength' because now you've taught yourself to use your muscles better.


The benefits for weight-training during a cut? When you lose mass, you lose muscle and fat. Leaving yourself smaller and weaker. Weight training will help keep as much muscle possible, while maximizing fat loss. So more of your 'mass' lost is muscle...vs fat. Leaving a more toned look, because you kept the muscle that's been hiding under the fat.

You won't gain muscle while losing weight, but you'll keep a lot more of the underlying muscle you already have.

deathstarclock

What the hell does "wake up muscle" mean? Are you referring to using muscles that you're not accustomed to? These are generally stabilizing muscles that you probably don't use in daily normal activity.

Gigi_licious

I asked one of my smart people friends a question similar to this last week. From my understanding, when you are eating at a deficit and doing strength training you are conditioning your muscles that are already there and already exist. While you're conditioning them, they can become stronger as your fat decreases so you would still be toned once the fat is gone. When people "build" muscle, they are eating at a surplus when they lift. Not sure that helped you at all. I'm still really new at this, so smart people are more than welcome to chime in and correct me.....Joe, Strout, Acg, Eric....???

vim_n_vigor

What the hell does "wake up muscle" mean? Are you referring to using muscles that you're not accustomed to? These are generally stabilizing muscles that you probably don't use in daily normal activity.

I wasn't sure what 'waking up muscles' meant. I saw it in a post at the end of last week that I wasn't able to respond to. I couldn't ask what that poster meant about 'waking' them up. Sorry.

McKayMachina

You can gain 'strength' without gaining muscle. Basically..say you can lift about 100lbs right now...you may not be using your muscle/strength to its full potential. It may or not be your MAX lift, but for the most part you can't lift anymore.

Through better training and practice, you can start utilizing your muscles better and start using the same amount of muscle, to push a bit more weight. The muscles don't get bigger, you just use them and push them to get a little more out. Think of yourself using 90% of your power currently..then being pushed even futher, gaining 'strength' because now you've taught yourself to use your muscles better.


The benefits for weight-training during a cut? When you lose mass, you lose muscle and fat. Leaving yourself smaller and weaker. Weight training will help keep as much muscle possible, while maximizing fat loss. So more of your 'mass' lost is muscle...vs fat. Leaving a more toned look, because you kept the muscle that's been hiding under the fat.

You won't gain muscle while losing weight, but you'll keep a lot more of the underlying muscle you already have.

While this sounds nice, it doesn't actually answer OP's question. You just said the same thing a few different times in different words.

How is it possible to start out lifting 10 lbs. and wind up lifting 100 lbs. while in a caloric deficit, actively losing weight, without having built any muscle?

Thanks!

Rae6503

Weight training while in a deficit strengthens and PRESERVES existing muscle. When you lose fat you inevitably lose muscle as well. Exercise and especially strength training preserves as much muscle tissue as possible. Without it your body might start burning more muscle than fat.

deathstarclock

You cannot gain strength without first putting on mass. It just doesn't work that way. Unless you have a basic understanding of exercise physiology, don't try to tackle that one.

Waking up muscle means exercising muscles that you are not accustomed to using on a daily basis. These muscles serve as stabilizing muscles that work with the center of gravity during any action being performed. A perfect example is your TVA, your transverse abdominis. This muscle assists in stabilizing your trunk along with your erector spinae and obliques. You contract this muscle to suck in your stomach and create a "block" to stabilize your spine from flexing or extending too much. Think of it as a natural weight belt.

Some activities will make you use muscles you didn't know you had. These muscles serve as "antagonists" to muscles performing work, or "agonists."

Tiffany1221

what does "bump" mean?

H_Factor

you can add some muscle while burning fat on a caloric deficit. If you can't, then I need to check myself into the hospital and find out why its happening to me. I do agree that you're not going to be able to enter any bodybuilding competitions on a caloric deficit...but you can add lean muscle mass

deathstarclock

you can add some muscle while burning fat on a caloric deficit. If you can't, then I need to check myself into the hospital and find out why its happening to me. I do agree that you're not going to be able to enter any bodybuilding competitions on a caloric deficit...but you can add lean muscle mass

Have you been measuring yourself? Could it be that you're losing fat around your muscles, and in fact being more defined versus building? You only build muscle through hypertrophy training. And you need to be in positive caloric balance to achieve mass.

Unless you're just a freak of nature.

H_Factor

you can add some muscle while burning fat on a caloric deficit. If you can't, then I need to check myself into the hospital and find out why its happening to me. I do agree that you're not going to be able to enter any bodybuilding competitions on a caloric deficit...but you can add lean muscle mass

Have you been measuring yourself? Could it be that you're losing fat around your muscles, and in fact being more defined versus building? You only build muscle through hypertrophy training. And you need to be in positive caloric deficit to achieve mass.

Unless you're just a freak of nature.

nope...not measuring myself. and, sure, a lot of it is losing the fat around my muscle. but I can tell you that there are muscles that were not developed before I started my fat loss mission. for example, the upper chest area has muscle now where it wasn't developed before. there is no doubt that my legs are stronger. and I'm pretty sure the muscles in my arms are more developed. oh, and the pull-ups are doing something to my back besides burning fat. again, I'm not about to enter a bodybuilding competition or anything, but there are changes besides fat loss.

bizco

Lifting heavy weights while operating at a calorie deficit will help minimize muscle loss. The weight you lose will be more fat tissue, not muscle tissue.

Lifting heavy weights has the added benefit of increasing your strength. This helps you perform everyday tasks. You'll be able to lift and move heavy things with ease and without injury.

deathstarclock

:drinker:

Sidesteal

Last time I tackled this I got flamed but I'm going to post again so my fellow bodybuilders can disagree again

It is very, very difficult (next to impossible) to gain lean mass in a deficit. However, Lyle McDonald has an article that discusses (this is ANECDOTAL, keep that in mind) circumstances under which people can make small gains while cutting. Muscle memory would be one indicator, and I can present photo examples of before/afters where I am gaining measurements and arm size while decreasing bodyweight. I was not in a surplus during this period, but I have muscle memory on my side as I used to be in shape.

Now let me make one big distinction: Do I think people regularly gain lean muscle on a cut? No. I just concede that it isn't impossible. It is very unlikely, and it's not something people should expect, nor is it a strategy to attempt (If you want to gain muscle you should be at a small surplus) but the commonly mentioned "noob gains" as well as people who used to be in shape and got out of shape, have shown this to exist.

Lastly, if you believe that strength gains cannot occur while in a deficit, AND lean mass cannot be gained in a deficit, then something must be wrong. My lifts are increasing from Sept to current, and I've been running a steady deficit and leaning out. I do not think I'm gaining lean mass -- it's because a portion of strength is neurological adaption.

lisaisso

bump

liftingbro

OK, here's the deal and hopefully this will clear up the mass amounts of incorrect info in this thread:

#1- You can lift more with same amount of muscle, it's called training and there are two factors in that:

A) Improving techinique can increase lift numbers without increasing mucle mass. Most people will naturally improve form as they learn to lift.

There are fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers. Fast twitch muscle fibers are responsible for sudden powerful movements like lifting weights, sprinting...ect. Slow twitch muscle are used in repeated endurance motions with relatively light load on the muscle like long distance running, walking, normal movements throughout the day. When large enough load is placed on the muscle (~60% of the max you can lift) you begin to recruit fast twitch muscle fibers. The more fast twitch muscle fibers you recruit, the more you can lift. With good training your body adapts and learns to adapt fast twitch muscle fibers more efficiently, thus increasing lifting ability without increased muscle mass. Of course, the more muscle you have, the more fast twitch fibers you will have but gains in lifting are both increased muscle mass and more efficient recruitment of fast twitch muscle fibers. In fact big increases in lifting abilty can be had without mass gains.

#2- You can't gain muscle mass and increase lifts on a calorie deficit.

While this is generally true of people that are conditioned to weight lifting and are fairly lean already, it's not completely true of overweight people that are just starting to lift. There is such a thing as newbie gains. However, they are not as significant as people think. As noted above you will increase lifts without gaining muscle mass due to becoming more efficient at recruiting fast twitch muscle fibers and this happens at a higher rate for those that are untrained (inexperience in lifting). So, judging whether or not you gained muscle mass or not by looking at your lifting stats are not very valid, particularly for a newbie lifter. The fact is that new lifters will gain a small amount of muscle mass while on a calorie deficit under proper conditions.

A) You will likely need to have a high % of BF. The more fat you have the more muscle sparing the conditions are.
You will need to lift and lift heavy.
C) You will need to take in plenty of protein (1-1.5g per pound)

Under these conditions you will probably experience large increases in lifting stats and a small increase in muscle mass (perhaps 2 pounds in the first couple months) while in a deficit.

The "waking up muscle" mostly refers to the body learning to recruit fast twitch muscle fibers more efficiently. A similar term "muscle memory" is normally used for those that once did lift frequently but had a long layoff and go back to lifting. In the case of "Muscle memory" the body already efficiently recruits FT muscle fibers so they gain strength back at a higher rate.

ahavoc

It's my understanding that when you Strength train, you actually tear muscle fibers in your muscle, Then, when you rest, your body rebuilds the muscle fibers only stronger. So strength training stimulates muscle fibers. Losing muscle under calorie restriction won't be an issue as long as you are doing resistance training at least 3 times per week. Your body has mechanisms in place to preserve muscle mass as long as it believes there is need for that muscle. If you are eating a low calorie diet and not training, there is a chance that you will lose muscle and that's why strength training is recommended.

And remember, there's a difference between weight lifting and strength training. Weight lifting builds muscle, and body builders have their own diet regimen for getting their muscle bulk happening. Strength training you are on lower weights and you do your reps, although you should work towards failure, so you do need to challenge yourself, but do it slowly. If 5 lb weights are easy, move to 8 or 10, and push yourself a bit. More muscle fibers = increased fiber size, and burns more calories.

So, cardio basically burns the calories while you are doing it, and helps burn fat and increase endurance and flexibility and is great for the cardio/vascular system. Strength training increases muscle fiber size. Once muscle fibers enlarge, they consume more energy - which boosts our metabolisms and burns more calories.

Win/win.

luvgreen25

what does "bump" mean?

I was wondering this same thing.

ahavoc

what does "bump" mean?

I was wondering this same thing.

It bumps the topic up to the top of the list. Get it? "bump"

Sidesteal

OK, here's the deal and hopefully this will clear up the mass amounts of incorrect info in this thread:

#1- You can lift more with same amount of muscle, it's called training and there are two factors in that:

A) Improving techinique can increase lift numbers without increasing mucle mass. Most people will naturally improve form as they learn to lift.

There are fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers. Fast twitch muscle fibers are responsible for sudden powerful movements like lifting weights, sprinting...ect. Slow twitch muscle are used in repeated endurance motions with relatively light load on the muscle like long distance running, walking, normal movements throughout the day. When large enough load is placed on the muscle (~60% of the max you can lift) you begin to recruit fast twitch muscle fibers. The more fast twitch muscle fibers you recruit, the more you can lift. With good training your body adapts and learns to adapt fast twitch muscle fibers more efficiently, thus increasing lifting ability without increased muscle mass. Of course, the more muscle you have, the more fast twitch fibers you will have but gains in lifting are both increased muscle mass and more efficient recruitment of fast twitch muscle fibers. In fact big increases in lifting abilty can be had without mass gains.

#2- You can't gain muscle mass and increase lifts on a calorie deficit.

While this is generally true of people that are conditioned to weight lifting and are fairly lean already, it's not completely true of overweight people that are just starting to lift. There is such a thing as newbie gains. However, they are not as significant as people think. As noted above you will increase lifts without gaining muscle mass due to becoming more efficient at recruiting fast twitch muscle fibers and this happens at a higher rate for those that are untrained (inexperience in lifting). So, judging whether or not you gained muscle mass or not by looking at your lifting stats are not very valid, particularly for a newbie lifter. The fact is that new lifters will gain a small amount of muscle mass while on a calorie deficit under proper conditions.

A) You will likely need to have a high % of BF. The more fat you have the more muscle sparing the conditions are.
You will need to lift and lift heavy.
C) You will need to take in plenty of protein (1-1.5g per pound)

Under these conditions you will probably experience large increases in lifting stats and a small increase in muscle mass (perhaps 2 pounds in the first couple months) while in a deficit.

The "waking up muscle" mostly refers to the body learning to recruit fast twitch muscle fibers more efficiently. A similar term "muscle memory" is normally used for those that once did lift frequently but had a long layoff and go back to lifting. In the case of "Muscle memory" the body already efficiently recruits FT muscle fibers so they gain strength back at a higher rate.

Great post.

deathstarclock

Yeah I just realized we are not discussing what I thought we were discussing :drinker:

jarrettd

"bump" is a way of bookmarking a thread so you can find it under the "My Topics" tab later.

Jesung

Not sure what 'waking up' your muscles means but weight training on a calorie deficits have the following advantages
1. You continue to make strength gains by being able to recruit more muscle fibers at once
2. You preserve your muscle mass while losing fat

when you're in maintenance, your overall body weight will not change but you may see some changes in body composition. i.e. lose fat and gain muscle

when you're in a surplus, weight training ensures that your body is building muscle with those extra calories, not storing it as fat.

vim_n_vigor

So, if I were a person that chose to stay on a caloric deficit, losing muscle mass and fat as part of that loss, is it more difficult then to build that muscle back up (I am assuming on some level that a caloric surplus would be needed because of the muscle loss)?

How much of a muscle loss can we assume for an obese person losing weight?

Again - I am all for weight loss. I am just trying to understand here.

tigersword

I'm going to use my "ropes and box" example. You have 4 ropes attached to a pulley and a heavy box. You hook one of the four ropes to the box and try and lift it, but can't. Then you hook the other 3 ropes to the box and lift it successfully. Both times you had the same amount of rope (so the rope didn't get heavier or bigger) but the second time you used all the ropes effectively and succeeded in lifting the box.

This is what happens when you train muscles. Think of them as bands of ropes. When a muscle is untrained, only some of the ropes are actually working, the rest are just there. As you strength train, you use more of the fibers you already have and get more efficient, and stronger. That's how you can get stronger without gaining muscle.