Cardio after weights to burn fat.

emmab0902

Sure. what is your typical workout routine? Lifting should be good for your bone density.

Days of the week vary as I am a police psychologist and as you can imagine that can be unpredictable.

In general it looks like this as of recently when I changed programme.

Tue/Thu/Sat gym - 5 min cardio warmup then full body strength workout 4sets of 8 reps per exercise, then 10 mins cardio. Looking to possibly up that last cardio hence this question.

One day a week I do a swim - which is about 2.5-3km in 50-60 minutes

My last programme was a circuit type programme which was 10 min running on treadmill, 3x strength exercises but 3 sets of 15 reps lighter weight, then 10 mins elliptical, then 4 more strength same reps etc, then 10 mins rower. I was making little progress as I think that was set more for endurance and I wanted strength gains.

1-2 times a week I do 30DS and/or a long walk and/or elliptical at home.

I work fulltime and have four children and sacked my husband 4 years ago so time management is a challenge.

Jeff92se

Sure. what is your typical workout routine? Lifting should be good for your bone density.

Days of the week vary as I am a police psychologist and as you can imagine that can be unpredictable.

In general it looks like this as of recently when I changed programme.

Tue/Thu/Sat gym - 5 min cardio warmup then full body strength workout 4sets of 8 reps per exercise, then 10 mins cardio. Looking to possibly up that last cardio hence this question.

One day a week I do a swim - which is about 2.5-3km in 50-60 minutes

My last programme was a circuit type programme which was 10 min running on treadmill, 3x strength exercises but 3 sets of 15 reps lighter weight, then 10 mins elliptical, then 4 more strength same reps etc, then 10 mins rower. I was making little progress as I think that was set more for endurance and I wanted strength gains.

1-2 times a week I do 30DS and/or a long walk and/or elliptical at home.

I work fulltime and have four children and sacked my husband 4 years ago so time management is a challenge.

Time is precious. I understand. How about incorporating the lifting and cardio?ie.. weight lift -> 1 min of jumrope, weight lift -> lunges. weight lift -> jumping jacks etc etc etc.

If you're not TOO concerned about upping your strength, then this might give you decent results. Given you want to up the cardio but are time limited. ie.. bascially try to make everything cardio related. Even the lifting phases (well as much as one can make lifiting a cardio activity)

SHBoss1673

what would you like to know?

I would like to know how much of a difference it really makes in the context of overall fat loss.

I presume that things like this (trying to specifically time your cardio relative to your glycogen stores) in the context of overall effectiveness are probably negligable for someone out of shape in the grand scheme of things, and I would also presume that it would only be a tactic that someone who is trying to get contest-lean would even bother to employ, since a good old-fashoined calorie deficit can get you pretty far as is.

But, the above isn't based on fact, I am being presumptuous.

I am skeptical, but definitely enjoy reading peer reviewed research.

I'll see what I can find, but I can tell you that what ends up happening is that the body "compromises" in order to compensate for fatigue factors and hormone response, which means that while you may THINK you're working at a specific rate, you're actually working less (in the cardio phase) and you may THINK you're doing a specific amount of work to build muscle mass (during the weight training phase) you're body will be dividing up resources that should go towards muscle recovery in order to satisfy energy needs for the cardio. The overall result is less than maximal performance for either one.
Flipping them (I.E. doing cardio first then weight training) is even worse actually because before you do the weight training you're flooding your body with cortisol which will cause an even higher anaerobic hormone suppression.

here are some good research studies on FFA's and exercise

http://jap.physiology.org/content/60/3/893.abstract?sid=5dbbd231-0ce6-4199-a62e-7c3124c36afa

http://jap.physiology.org/content/39/3/349.abstract?sid=5dbbd231-0ce6-4199-a62e-7c3124c36afa

http://jap.physiology.org/content/19/3/489.abstract?sid=39b44619-d3be-4fb4-aa18-d729182b77e3


and here are some on the hormones from anaerobic exercise

http://jap.physiology.org/content/101/6/1616.abstract?sid=bb5418db-1b8c-488a-a4bc-517436ce712d

http://jap.physiology.org/content/69/4/1442.abstract?sid=10c2f540-5239-4235-aaa1-5bba1c042463


and finally a few on hormone interaction between cortisol, insulin, and/or testosterone

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/54/1/131.abstract?sid=4b8baf29-db48-4743-a7ac-1549a70e2a91

http://jap.physiology.org/content/84/3/939.abstract?sid=bc16b137-6057-42c3-bee0-4ea7b2a2270a

http://jap.physiology.org/content/100/5/1647.abstract?sid=ccefafbb-3bcc-478d-bf74-70336377d0c8

Jeff92se

what would you like to know?

I would like to know how much of a difference it really makes in the context of overall fat loss.

I presume that things like this (trying to specifically time your cardio relative to your glycogen stores) in the context of overall effectiveness are probably negligable for someone out of shape in the grand scheme of things, and I would also presume that it would only be a tactic that someone who is trying to get contest-lean would even bother to employ, since a good old-fashoined calorie deficit can get you pretty far as is.

But, the above isn't based on fact, I am being presumptuous.

I am skeptical, but definitely enjoy reading peer reviewed research.

I'll see what I can find, but I can tell you that what ends up happening is that the body "compromises" in order to compensate for fatigue factors and hormone response, which means that while you may THINK you're working at a specific rate, you're actually working less (in the cardio phase) and you may THINK you're doing a specific amount of work to build muscle mass (during the weight training phase) you're body will be dividing up resources that should go towards muscle recovery in order to satisfy energy needs for the cardio. The overall result is less than maximal performance for either one.
Flipping them (I.E. doing cardio first then weight training) is even worse actually because before you do the weight training you're flooding your body with cortisol which will cause an even higher anaerobic hormone suppression.

here are some good research studies on FFA's and exercise

http://jap.physiology.org/content/60/3/893.abstract?sid=5dbbd231-0ce6-4199-a62e-7c3124c36afa

http://jap.physiology.org/content/39/3/349.abstract?sid=5dbbd231-0ce6-4199-a62e-7c3124c36afa

http://jap.physiology.org/content/19/3/489.abstract?sid=39b44619-d3be-4fb4-aa18-d729182b77e3


and here are some on the hormones from anaerobic exercise

http://jap.physiology.org/content/101/6/1616.abstract?sid=bb5418db-1b8c-488a-a4bc-517436ce712d

http://jap.physiology.org/content/69/4/1442.abstract?sid=10c2f540-5239-4235-aaa1-5bba1c042463


and finally a few on hormone interaction between cortisol, insulin, and/or testosterone

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/54/1/131.abstract?sid=4b8baf29-db48-4743-a7ac-1549a70e2a91

http://jap.physiology.org/content/84/3/939.abstract?sid=bc16b137-6057-42c3-bee0-4ea7b2a2270a

http://jap.physiology.org/content/100/5/1647.abstract?sid=ccefafbb-3bcc-478d-bf74-70336377d0c8

Well we are all trying to achieve a desired effect in w/o the benefit of a perfect workout schedule. If she's time limited, what would be your recommendations?

Steven

Folks,

I'm going to do some editing of this thread to remove the arguments and preserve the debate.

Please make a point to discuss the merits of the facts, and not the worthiness of other members.

In general posts that contain phrases like "You are [insert adjective or noun]" are going to start getting personal very quickly.

Please remember that one of the forum rules is;

4) Do not attack/slam/insult other users. The forums are here so that members can help support one another. Attacks or insults against each other takes away from the supportive atmosphere and will not be tolerated. You can discuss the message or topic, but not the messenger - NO EXCEPTIONS. If you are attacked by another user, and you reciprocate, YOU will also be subject to the same consequences. Defending yourself, defending a friend, etc. are NOT excuses. Violations of this rule are taken very seriously and may result in being banned without warning! If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

Thanks,
Steven
MyFitnessPal Staff

Timdog57

what would you like to know?

I would like to know how much of a difference it really makes in the context of overall fat loss.

I presume that things like this (trying to specifically time your cardio relative to your glycogen stores) in the context of overall effectiveness are probably negligable for someone out of shape in the grand scheme of things, and I would also presume that it would only be a tactic that someone who is trying to get contest-lean would even bother to employ, since a good old-fashoined calorie deficit can get you pretty far as is.

But, the above isn't based on fact, I am being presumptuous.

I am skeptical, but definitely enjoy reading peer reviewed research.

Yeah, I similarly am interested in the same sort of concept as applied to HIIT (as well as strength training). As far as glycogen stores go, am I depleting them if I lift for an hour intensly? Am I depleting them doing a 10-minute HIIT session?

Based on the answer to those questions, I'd wonder how the depleted (or lack there of) glycogen affects my ability to burn fat.

SHBoss1673

Well we are all trying to achieve a desired effect in w/o the benefit of a perfect workout schedule. If she's time limited, what would be your recommendations?

There's really no shortcut to it. I'm not saying you can't do both at the same time, but you're just not going to see the type of benefits you would from splitting them up.

Now, that being said, I'm talking about TRUE weight training to failure, and cardio long enough and hard enough to elicit strong cortisol responses.

My recommendation is to separate the days, even knowing full well that you are doing more specific work that way.
My reasoning is this:
1) Focusing on one training type allows the body to pool all it's resources toward that goal, for the whole day, both during and after the workout.
2) You really don't need more than 3 days of weight training a week, 4 if you really want to push it and do 2 days on upper body routines and 2 on lower body routines, or 3 total body routines (it's not that difficult to do 12 to 14 exercise types in an hour to 90 minutes if you plan it well, give your body 2 days off (weight training, you can do cardio in between days) between weight training sets and that's really all you need unless you're doing some targeted training in which case you'd already know what you want to do)

Someone else mentioned HIIT training. HIIT training is a special kind of anaerobic work. There is a difference between localized muscular failure and localized muscular fatigue, the former is basically low rep high weight training to failure, the latter is HIIT or high rep. low weight training to muscular fatigue. The difference is, 1 focuses on strength and mass gains, while 1 focuses on muscular endurance and anaerobic threshold. HIIT training is unique in that it also works the cardiovascular system to fatigue as well (I.E. you run out of oxygen well before the muscles run out of fuel to burn with the oxygen), these are all good things, but they don't have the same rules. HIIT training enhances EPOC (Exercise Post-Exercise Oxygen Consumption levels) which means a higher metabolic rate for hours after a workout, it increases your anaerobic threshold allowing you to work at a higher level before going anaerobic, it also burns a ton of calories in a short period of time (that's a side benefit), of course, if you do HIIT right, your time for working out is far lower than SSC (Steady State Cardio).
But make no mistake, just because HIIT is anaerobic, doesn't mean it's traditional muscle building activity, it's truly a hybrid exercise, it forces your body to work harder longer, but doesn't work to failure, only fatigue (which feel very similar, but are very different to your muscle physiology).

istalkzombies

The quick and dirty explanation as I understand it: after weightlifting your body's primary fuel source - glycogen - is depleted. So you are exclusively in fat burning mode when you undertake cardio. Probably works in either order, but more effective if cardio is secondary since you burn more fat with a higher sustained heart rate.

thats what ive heard as well

SHBoss1673

Yeah, I similarly am interested in the same sort of concept as applied to HIIT (as well as strength training). As far as glycogen stores go, am I depleting them if I lift for an hour intensly? Am I depleting them doing a 10-minute HIIT session?

Based on the answer to those questions, I'd wonder how the depleted (or lack there of) glycogen affects my ability to burn fat.

the answer is most likely yes to both of these, now, whether the depletion is complete depends on your level of work. CAN you work to total glycogen depletion in an hour of weight training, probably, but you'd have to be awful dedicated, likewise, CAN you work to total depletion in 10 Minutes of HIIT? Possibly, but more likely you just depleted your ready glycogen (the glycogen at the muscle site) and your body hasn't replaced it with liver glycogen again. This will all depend on a myriad of factors though, like your aerobic fitness level, your muscle size, the percentage of type I, type IIa, and type IIb muscles, your VO2 max (in the case of HIIT training), your anaerobic threshold, what carbohydrate stores you have in your body, the type of exercise, whether you're male or female...etc.

Take tabata protocol as an example. It's only 4 minutes of anaerobic work, but you burn about as much as a 25 to 30 minute steady state session (you wrap 5 minutes of warm up and 5 minutes of cool down around it). But in that 4 minutes, you're pushing your legs to their breaking point (IMHO the ONLY way to truly do tabata is on a spin bike, sorry guys, I've tried other ways, it's just not as good), but even with all this work, I'm only depleting local muscular glycogen, I'm just not working long enough to deplete my liver glycogen, but it sure does increase my VO2 max levels, which allows me to work harder in my SSC in the long term, which means I can work harder without going anaerobic, thus I can sustain a higher aerobic level of fitness.

emmab0902

So my trainer having given me the original programme of cardio alternated with high reps low weight would have been for fat burning etc? Am I going to lose that edge if I have changed it to slightly less cardio but lower reps higher weight. I know ideally I need to split it. It's hard having mixed goals I guess as its hard to find the balance between fat building and strength gain. Really I want definition. Like most of us females!

Azdak

For the average person, when it comes to weight loss, it makes no difference.

Few discussions in fitness generate so much discussion for so little purpose.

SHBoss1673

So my trainer having given me the original programme of cardio alternated with high reps low weight would have been for fat burning etc? Am I going to lose that edge if I have changed it to slightly less cardio but lower reps higher weight. I know ideally I need to split it. It's hard having mixed goals I guess as its hard to find the balance between fat building and strength gain. Really I want definition. Like most of us females!

to your first question, yes and no. Yes, it will be a fat burning routine, but it's also a muscle fatigue routine which would do little to increase your strength, or muscle volume, but would help increase the stamina of those muscles.

Not sure what you mean when you say "lose that edge", it's all about what your goals are. if your goals are to increase strength, then work lower reps, higher weight, if they are to increase specific muscle stamina, higher reps, lower weight, if they are to increase endurance performance, a combination of HIIT and SSC would be what you would focus on, if you just want to lose fat, and keep your body generally balanced, then a mix of all of them will be the best routine. But when I say mix, then I mean set up a routine for a whole week, or 10 day stretch, where each day targets a specific workout type and area of the body.

Definition is a vague term, for some it simply means losing the fat mass under your skin to show the muscles already there, for others it means developing the muscles themselves, for even others it means changing from a high cardio schedule to a balanced schedule or even a heavier resistance schedule. Really, to define the term you need to examine your body and decide what you need, fat loss, muscle gain, or some combination of both.

emmab0902

. Really, to define the term you need to examine your body and decide what you need, fat loss, muscle gain, or some combination of both.

Definitely both! Possibly the body fat is a greater priority - for a not heavy and leanish looking person I have a surprisingly high BF%

Jeff92se

Ah so this thread was related to your goals! j/k

I can say that doing both. ie.. supersetting my lifts with hitt style supersets for 30 min and adding some cardio for 30 min has been successfull SO FAR. But I've been doing this before I joined. I did this for only 2 days a week and it lost the 1st 10 lbs. I joined here and added just polymetrics/cardio to the off days + diet examination for the last 3 weeks and I've started to go down again (slowly- 4 lbs). I had my bodyfat tested last week and I'm at 19%. Will get it done again after I can get to a 7-8lbs loss. Just to see if I can tell what was lost. Bodyfat or muscle mass or both (probably a combo but hope it's mostly bodyfat).

So I hope you can understand I wasn't attacking. Just trying to understand your overall goal. Thus trying to create a better reply

FaithHopeBELIEVE

The times that I have done my strength before my runs I feel like I'm running on empty before I even get into the run. I feel weak and like my stomach is empty (haven't in a day sorta empty) and those runs almost always bonk. The training program I've been usin said to do cardio first, but I'd heard this same thing and had been trying it strength then cardio, but I think I'm gonna listen to the program advice the next few times to see if there's a change in my performance.

same here. I have to do my cardio first or cardio won't happen for me. Plus I seem to burn more calories doing it this way says my HRM.

Jeff92se

The times that I have done my strength before my runs I feel like I'm running on empty before I even get into the run. I feel weak and like my stomach is empty (haven't in a day sorta empty) and those runs almost always bonk. The training program I've been usin said to do cardio first, but I'd heard this same thing and had been trying it strength then cardio, but I think I'm gonna listen to the program advice the next few times to see if there's a change in my performance.

same here. I have to do my cardio first or cardio won't happen for me. Plus I seem to burn more calories doing it this way says my HRM.

Wouldn't that indicate that you should eat somethng before working out? (if in fact you are not eating before working out)

FaithHopeBELIEVE

The times that I have done my strength before my runs I feel like I'm running on empty before I even get into the run. I feel weak and like my stomach is empty (haven't in a day sorta empty) and those runs almost always bonk. The training program I've been usin said to do cardio first, but I'd heard this same thing and had been trying it strength then cardio, but I think I'm gonna listen to the program advice the next few times to see if there's a change in my performance.

same here. I have to do my cardio first or cardio won't happen for me. Plus I seem to burn more calories doing it this way says my HRM.

Wouldn't that indicate that you should eat somethng before working out? (if in fact you are not eating before working out)

Actually it doesn't matter what time of day I do this. I am too tired after weightlifting to even get my usual 30-45 minutes of cardio in. Experimenting with my HRM it always has more cals burned (for me) if I do cardio first then strength vs the other way. That's just my body and my HRM.

Jeff92se

Understood. Everybody is different and some things work out better than others.

emmab0902

Funny how we are all different - I have a non gym day today and just did a weird combo of 30DS plus elliptica and randomabs. Did 5 mins on the elliptical, then the strength bits of 30DS (which is really more endurance as it's low weights high reps). Jumped back on the elliptical for the cardio parts of the dvd (avoiding high impact at present as have shin splints) then did today's randomabs.com routine at the end.

Soaked with sweat and feel great. Am thinking if I do this 2-3 days a week and the heavier lifting on other days that will give me the mix I need.

Off for my 2.5km swim later on.

Jeff92se

Funny how we are all different - I have a non gym day today and just did a weird combo of 30DS plus elliptica and randomabs. Did 5 mins on the elliptical, then the strength bits of 30DS (which is really more endurance as it's low weights high reps). Jumped back on the elliptical for the cardio parts of the dvd (avoiding high impact at present as have shin splints) then did today's randomabs.com routine at the end.

Soaked with sweat and feel great. Am thinking if I do this 2-3 days a week and the heavier lifting on other days that will give me the mix I need.

Off for my 2.5km swim later on.

I was thinking if you were able to throw another 60 min of swimming that would be a ton of calories burnt. And I assume woudl ease up on your body.