Giving up Meat

tidmutt

I can't give up meet; that's insulting to God.
If God did not want us eating animals, why did He make them out of meat?

Uh, humans are made of meat. So are dogs. God must want you to be a dog-eating zombie cannibal.

Humans are omnivores, as proven by our teeth. We can survive without meat, but we evolved eating both.

So? How does that matter? Humans used to be cave-dwellers once. Should that inform our dwelling choices now?

Being an omnivore means you can eat a whole spectrum of foods. Why not choose the best foods among them? Humans have the power of reason and discernment, so why not use it?

If you read breaking nutrition news, the overwhelming evidence is that a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is optimal for more reasons than I can list. At best, these studies indicate if there is any meat in the diet at all, that it should be treated like a condiment.

Evolutionary biology is a useful tool to help us frame our approach to nutrition but I agree that it should be informed by science and our understanding of the optimal mix of macro nutrients. We shouldn't dogmatically only eat what we evolved to eat if science tells us eating XYZ is actually more optimal. There is no reason to say that some particular food that may not have been accessible to us prior to agriculture might not be the ultimate health food, however, that food doesn't seem to exist yet, at least based on my experience. So I'm agreeing with you in part, but please if you are going to make scientific claims then back them up with some links to published research or articles citing published research. You may believe that the evidence is overwhelming but that doesn't mean I should believe you.

_VoV

I can't give up meet; that's insulting to God.
If God did not want us eating animals, why did He make them out of meat?

Uh, humans are made of meat. So are dogs. God must want you to be a dog-eating zombie cannibal.

Humans are omnivores, as proven by our teeth. We can survive without meat, but we evolved eating both.

So? How does that matter? Humans used to be cave-dwellers once. Should that inform our dwelling choices now?

Being an omnivore means you can eat a whole spectrum of foods. Why not choose the best foods among them? Humans have the power of reason and discernment, so why not use it?

If you read breaking nutrition news, the overwhelming evidence is that a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is optimal for more reasons than I can list. At best, these studies indicate if there is any meat in the diet at all, that it should be treated like a condiment.

Take it easy, I was just telling the above guy I originally quoted that we evolved eating both. And yes, as far as your comment on dwelling goes, we still live in safest homes available to us....

Okay....I just thought we were on the cusp of the predictable 'But, what about our canine teeth?' thing. Glad we aren't.

tidmutt

I can't give up meet; that's insulting to God.
If God did not want us eating animals, why did He make them out of meat?

Uh, humans are made of meat. So are dogs. God must want you to be a dog-eating zombie cannibal.

Humans are omnivores, as proven by our teeth. We can survive without meat, but we evolved eating both.

So? How does that matter? Humans used to be cave-dwellers once. Should that inform our dwelling choices now?

Being an omnivore means you can eat a whole spectrum of foods. Why not choose the best foods among them? Humans have the power of reason and discernment, so why not use it?

If you read breaking nutrition news, the overwhelming evidence is that a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is optimal for more reasons than I can list. At best, these studies indicate if there is any meat in the diet at all, that it should be treated like a condiment.

Take it easy, I was just telling the above guy I originally quoted that we evolved eating both. And yes, as far as your comment on dwelling goes, we still live in safest homes available to us....

Okay....I just thought we were on the cusp of the predictable 'But, what about our canine teeth?' thing. Glad we aren't.

This is such a murky area, I just read in New Scientist about the latest analysis of the preserved remains of a male hunter gatherer. When looking at the contents of his stomach they found it filled with meat and his gallbladder also indicated that he ate large amounts of fat. I should mention that he lived in a cold climate. If anyone is interested I can dig up the details and maybe find a link. It's in last week's New Scientist.

_VoV

I can't give up meet; that's insulting to God.
If God did not want us eating animals, why did He make them out of meat?

Uh, humans are made of meat. So are dogs. God must want you to be a dog-eating zombie cannibal.

Humans are omnivores, as proven by our teeth. We can survive without meat, but we evolved eating both.

So? How does that matter? Humans used to be cave-dwellers once. Should that inform our dwelling choices now?

Being an omnivore means you can eat a whole spectrum of foods. Why not choose the best foods among them? Humans have the power of reason and discernment, so why not use it?

If you read breaking nutrition news, the overwhelming evidence is that a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is optimal for more reasons than I can list. At best, these studies indicate if there is any meat in the diet at all, that it should be treated like a condiment.

Evolutionary biology is a useful tool to help us frame our approach to nutrition but I agree that it should be informed by science and our understanding of the optimal mix of macro nutrients. We shouldn't dogmatically only eat what we evolved to eat if science tells us eating XYZ is actually more optimal. There is no reason to say that some particular food that may not have been accessible to us prior to agriculture might not be the ultimate health food, however, that food doesn't seem to exist yet, at least based on my experience. So I'm agreeing with you in part, but please if you are going to make scientific claims then back them up with some links to published research or articles citing published research. You may believe that the evidence is overwhelming but that doesn't mean I should believe you.

I agree with you. I worked as a health sciences librarian for 20 years, and I have great respect for the scientific literature. My comments are impressionistic. I read Science News for breaking nutrition news every day. Most of the research only looks at specific foods or nutrients in isolation which doesn't help form a holistic dietary imperative. But, it does appear that many fruits and vegetables alone or in combination have amazing health benefits.

tidmutt

I can't give up meet; that's insulting to God.
If God did not want us eating animals, why did He make them out of meat?

Uh, humans are made of meat. So are dogs. God must want you to be a dog-eating zombie cannibal.

Humans are omnivores, as proven by our teeth. We can survive without meat, but we evolved eating both.

So? How does that matter? Humans used to be cave-dwellers once. Should that inform our dwelling choices now?

Being an omnivore means you can eat a whole spectrum of foods. Why not choose the best foods among them? Humans have the power of reason and discernment, so why not use it?

If you read breaking nutrition news, the overwhelming evidence is that a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is optimal for more reasons than I can list. At best, these studies indicate if there is any meat in the diet at all, that it should be treated like a condiment.

Evolutionary biology is a useful tool to help us frame our approach to nutrition but I agree that it should be informed by science and our understanding of the optimal mix of macro nutrients. We shouldn't dogmatically only eat what we evolved to eat if science tells us eating XYZ is actually more optimal. There is no reason to say that some particular food that may not have been accessible to us prior to agriculture might not be the ultimate health food, however, that food doesn't seem to exist yet, at least based on my experience. So I'm agreeing with you in part, but please if you are going to make scientific claims then back them up with some links to published research or articles citing published research. You may believe that the evidence is overwhelming but that doesn't mean I should believe you.

I agree with you. I worked as a health sciences librarian for 20 years, and I have great respect for the scientific literature. My comments are impressionistic. I read Science News for breaking nutrition news every day. Most of the research only looks at specific foods or nutrients in isolation which doesn't help form a holistic dietary imperative. But, it does appear that many fruits and vegetables alone or in combination have amazing health benefits.

That's fair enough, this area is so complex and impossible to really understand completely I think we have to form out own opinions based on a gut feel. My personal approach is to eat loads of vegetables and also clean protein (pastured, grass fed), wild fish etc. for their superior omega 3/6 ratio. This is the essence of Paleo/Primal.

Although if I filled in my food diary for the Christmas period if wouldn't look like that, LOL. We all need a week off I suppose.

traceracer

Oh good Lord!!! Congrats OP on not wanting to eat meat and good luck! Anyone who disagrees should go eat a steak! Worry about yourselves. I guess Im just mad at myself for reading this whole thread....

batalina

melitsace, welcome to the world of no-meat! the welcome-comittee of negative naysayers is an accurate picture of the treatment you can expect in the future, sad to say. i've been vegetarian for nearly 4 years and vegan for 3, and i still encounter comments like these -- people always think they're being so original with the snarky ones, too! luckily we have Defensive Omnivore Bingo... how many of these squares can we mark off just from this thread? http://vegansaurus.com/post/254784826/defensive-omnivore-bingo

anyhow, i really love the site http://vegweb.com/ . pretty much every time i'm like, "how can i make _______ without meat?" i end up here. i've liked this: http://vegweb.com/index.php?topic=5072.0 and i LOVE this: http://vegweb.com/index.php?topic=7578.0 . in general, they have a veg version of just about everything.
other good resources i enjoy are http://fatfreevegan.com/, http://kblog.lunchboxbunch.com/, and http://www.theppk.com/ . i know you said you're not vegan, but the methods of substituting for meat on these sites might be of use to you.

good luck!

You might be surprised that when I tell people I eat Primal/Paleo that I receive similar sorts of treatment. With comments like "you'll die of a heart attack", "you'll get cancer", "have you read The China Study". I try to tell people that I eat more vegetables and fruit that I ever have before but they associate it with Atkins (incorrectly) and then point out (incorrectly) that he diet of a heart attack and then announce to me that we all died young prior to the invention of agriculture (another unfounded belief).

i bet! i have some paleo friends and they get a lot of crap, too. i guess pretty much any diet or lifestyle choice regarding food can draw negativity from people who don't understand!

Myrtlemama4

Ive been a vegetarian for almost 12 years and LOVE the food choices available now. Quorn is a GREAT brand..you can make tacos, chili with the crumbles..the chicken is so good too!

_VoV

Oh good Lord!!! Congrats OP on not wanting to eat meat and good luck! Anyone who disagrees should go eat a steak! Worry about yourselves. I guess Im just mad at myself for reading this whole thread....

Hahahaha!! So to the point!!

And the next time some guy posts a thread called 'I love meat,' maybe I won't just let them just have their fun without my vegetarian slant on the topic. It looks like even when meat-eating isn't being challenged, that some people just can't stay away to defend their love for the flesh.

tidmutt

Oh good Lord!!! Congrats OP on not wanting to eat meat and good luck! Anyone who disagrees should go eat a steak! Worry about yourselves. I guess Im just mad at myself for reading this whole thread....

Hahahaha!! So to the point!!

And the next time some guy posts a thread called 'I love meat,' maybe I won't just let them just have their fun without my vegetarian slant on the topic. It looks like even when meat-eating isn't being challenged, that some people just can't stay away to defend their love for the flesh.

Why the hell not? Start an informed discussion, nothing wrong with a lively debate!

sunnyday789

once more..... just to clarify some of the posts. The OP made claims that eating meat is linked to cancer and was asked to state her sources. She wasn't really being attacked for choosing to not eat meat.

TyatKU

I can't give up meet; that's insulting to God.
If God did not want us eating animals, why did He make them out of meat?

Uh, humans are made of meat. So are dogs. God must want you to be a dog-eating zombie cannibal.

Humans are omnivores, as proven by our teeth. We can survive without meat, but we evolved eating both.

So? How does that matter? Humans used to be cave-dwellers once. Should that inform our dwelling choices now?

Being an omnivore means you can eat a whole spectrum of foods. Why not choose the best foods among them? Humans have the power of reason and discernment, so why not use it?

If you read breaking nutrition news, the overwhelming evidence is that a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is optimal for more reasons than I can list. At best, these studies indicate if there is any meat in the diet at all, that it should be treated like a condiment.

Evolutionary biology is a useful tool to help us frame our approach to nutrition but I agree that it should be informed by science and our understanding of the optimal mix of macro nutrients. We shouldn't dogmatically only eat what we evolved to eat if science tells us eating XYZ is actually more optimal. There is no reason to say that some particular food that may not have been accessible to us prior to agriculture might not be the ultimate health food, however, that food doesn't seem to exist yet, at least based on my experience. So I'm agreeing with you in part, but please if you are going to make scientific claims then back them up with some links to published research or articles citing published research. You may believe that the evidence is overwhelming but that doesn't mean I should believe you.

I agree with you. I worked as a health sciences librarian for 20 years, and I have great respect for the scientific literature. My comments are impressionistic. I read Science News for breaking nutrition news every day. Most of the research only looks at specific foods or nutrients in isolation which doesn't help form a holistic dietary imperative. But, it does appear that many fruits and vegetables alone or in combination have amazing health benefits.

I need to clear this up for everyone.

I have a degree in dental medicine. My education in anthropological genetics has told me that human evolution took off on our ability to cook our MEAT products. By denaturing proteins, vital to our brain development and evolution, we allow them to be absorbed and utilized much easier. Without meat and its high content of protein, our evolutionary history may have looked much different.

As a dentist, I council my patients on their diet and I wouldn't tell any of them to stop eating meat unless they have a sound understanding of what nutrients they need to consume.That being said, a vegetarian and even a vegan diet is a feasible one that allows sufficient nutrient intake to avoid malnutrition and/or undernutrition. It will be more difficult to do so.

I grew up adjacent to a beef-packing plant. I choose to live a healthy lifestyle avoiding meat because I don't approve of the sources that provide us our meat. Everything is good in moderation, including meat.

Sherbog

When I limited my meat intake to tuna, salmon and turkey I experienced an increase in weight loss. I no longer eat prepared food that one purchases. Mostly broth type soups and salads and love it. Steel cut oats for any meal makes me happy.

veganbaum

once more..... just to clarify some of the posts. The OP made claims that eating meat is linked to cancer and was asked to state her sources. She wasn't really being attacked for choosing to not eat meat.

If you look back at her posts she said that her mother's oncologists at least encourage giving up red meat.

veganbaum

Oh good Lord!!! Congrats OP on not wanting to eat meat and good luck! Anyone who disagrees should go eat a steak! Worry about yourselves. I guess Im just mad at myself for reading this whole thread....

Hahahaha!! So to the point!!

And the next time some guy posts a thread called 'I love meat,' maybe I won't just let them just have their fun without my vegetarian slant on the topic. It looks like even when meat-eating isn't being challenged, that some people just can't stay away to defend their love for the flesh.

Why the hell not? Start an informed discussion, nothing wrong with a lively debate!

Go join the debate group and start a debate there. That's what the groups are for, unless someone wants to start a thread on the main board that is open to debate. The OP did not start such a thread. Don't hijack her thread.

tiffanyrose519

Well, I gave up red meat because it really just seems to not be that great for my health. It's been tied to cancer etc. Then, I just decided I wanted to give up the rest of it and really focus on getting a lot more veggies into my diet. I don't know if I will keep it up forever, but I just needed to shake up my diet a bit so I can lose some more. : )

First, I'll recommend a great vegan food blog ohsheglows.com with fantastic recipes! You won't even miss the meat/dairy. But I also want to say that I've come to the conclusion that it isn't eating meat that is unhealthy, but it's the type of meat. I don't eat a lot of meat specifically because I only buy organic, grass-fed beef and organic, free-range poultry. It's the antibiotics and the stuff (like hydrolyzed feathers!) companies give animals to eat that is causing cancer, etc.

It's so nice to see someone who cares about what they are putting into their body! Good luck on your quest!

_VoV

once more..... just to clarify some of the posts. The OP made claims that eating meat is linked to cancer and was asked to state her sources. She wasn't really being attacked for choosing to not eat meat.

Why should the OP have to provide a meta-analysis on the relationship between cancer and meat-eating with powerpoint and funny photos to keep her audience entertained?

It just seemed she was looking for some practical suggestions for meatless eating. I hope she got enough to get her started, and doesn't feel she needs to get a Ph.D. in nutrition biochemistry to feel prepared enough to back up her dietary choices.

And please understand that your 'friendly debate' may be something we have heard dozens, if not hundreds, of times in our lifetimes. It may help you pass the time, but it may make some of us yawn with the predictability of it all.

Beaverton_2015

I'm not totally giving up meat, I'll still have fish and chicken...maybe some turkey once in awhile....:happy:

veganbaum

Nice people don't eat animals

The Post-Punk Kitchen, Oh She Glows and The Vegan Stoner are some great websites to start at. They're mostly vegan recipes, but if you don't want to use the vegan milks, cheeses, etc., you can always replace them with whatever you like. They are easy and delicious!

Also, there are lots of great threads on the MFP boards about animal-free proteins - my biggest faves are seitan, tempeh and tofu, but mushrooms, especially portobellos, have a very "meaty" texture and savory taste.

In a way, I get that some people just don't like the taste of meat. I despise the taste of egg plants, for some reason. Everyone has their weird food preferences.

But in terms of ethics or niceness, from a big picture perspective, there is no way to get around contributing to animal slaughter, even if it's more indirect than a red meat eater or omnivore. Consider the number of sentient creatures that must be killed in order to change an ecosystem into commercial farmland to produce vegetables and grains for sale. In fact, there is a good argument to be made that vegetarianism and veganism unwittingly contribute to more overall animal slaughter than omnivorousness:

http://theconversation.edu.au/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-theres-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands-4659

I don't like how this post is being ignored, so I'm quoting it because it's worthy of discussion.

Yes, living in an industrialized nation it is nearly impossible to avoid animal products altogether - if you own a car, take public transportation, or otherwise use tires, usually animal products were used in the making of the tires. Animal product are used in asphalt, etc. But it would be ridiculous to then conclude that because one cannot entirely avoid contributing to suffering, one should just give up altogether.

To the point here, I did not read the link, but let me provide this from the US EPA:
http://www.epa.gov/agriculture/ag101/cropmajor.html

Over 70 million acres of land are used for corn production, of which 80% goes to feed animals raised for slaughter. The same number of acres is used for soybean production. This link does not provide a percentage of soybeans that is used for animal feed, but I know that is increasing as well. What if that corn was used to feed people, or what if the land was used to grow other crops to feed people? Grain sorghum, mostly used for animal feed, is grown on another nearly 8 million acres.

Additionally, farmland is being encroached upon by development:
"In fact, some 3,000 acres of productive farmland are lost to development each day in this country."
"Development pressure on farmland at the rural-urban interface is posing long-term challenges for production agriculture and for the country as a whole."
http://www.epa.gov/agriculture/ag101/landuse.html

Doesn't seem like people eating more vegetables and grains is the issue in the need for more farmland (and actually, I believe one of those EPA links says that overall farmland has decreased by something like 3%, allowed because of modern farming practices. Of course, this doesn't account for imported food for all types of diets). You can read about the far reaching consequences of our current industrial farmed animal system here:
http://www.pewtrusts.org/uploadedFiles/wwwpewtrustsorg/Reports/Industrial_Agriculture/PCIFAP_FINAL.pdf

ninerbuff

I'm going to guess it's NOT from actual scientific journals.

I concur.


A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

tidmutt

once more..... just to clarify some of the posts. The OP made claims that eating meat is linked to cancer and was asked to state her sources. She wasn't really being attacked for choosing to not eat meat.

Why should the OP have to provide a meta-analysis on the relationship between cancer and meat-eating with powerpoint and funny photos to keep her audience entertained?

It just seemed she was looking for some practical suggestions for meatless eating. I hope she got enough to get her started, and doesn't feel she needs to get a Ph.D. in nutrition biochemistry to feel prepared enough to back up her dietary choices.

And please understand that your 'friendly debate' may be something we have heard dozens, if not hundreds, of times in our lifetimes. It may help you pass the time, but it may make some of us yawn with the predictability of it all.

If she said I am choosing to not eat meat then yes no links are required, however, she mentioned the cancer links at that point I think it's perfectly acceptable for others to debate that point and request where she is getting her information.

tidmutt

once more..... just to clarify some of the posts. The OP made claims that eating meat is linked to cancer and was asked to state her sources. She wasn't really being attacked for choosing to not eat meat.

Why should the OP have to provide a meta-analysis on the relationship between cancer and meat-eating with powerpoint and funny photos to keep her audience entertained?

It just seemed she was looking for some practical suggestions for meatless eating. I hope she got enough to get her started, and doesn't feel she needs to get a Ph.D. in nutrition biochemistry to feel prepared enough to back up her dietary choices.

And please understand that your 'friendly debate' may be something we have heard dozens, if not hundreds, of times in our lifetimes. It may help you pass the time, but it may make some of us yawn with the predictability of it all.

I've seen the debate many times to but I sometimes learn something new...

veganbaum

OP - since the question you asked was actually about vegetarian recipes and more protein . . .

Several good suggestions here. I would also look at thekindlife.com and http://happyherbivore.com/recipes/ for some recipes. Happy Herbivore is vegan, but some very good and simple recipes there. And as someone else said, if you wish you can use cow dairy instead of plant mylks or cheeses. Good luck!

ninerbuff

One thing that I really don't understand, and probably never will, is people's incessant need to be troll-like when it comes to things they don't fully understand, or want to participate in for themselves.

The OP said "I have slowly been giving up meet since August. I gave up red meat and starting today, all meat together. I have never been one to really enjoy any bean recipes, but I am willing to give it a try!! If you know any great vegetarian dishes or ways to get more protein, please share!!" No where in this post did it say "I want your opinions and snarky attitudes towards my decision to try vegetarianism."

If you have no supportive, encouraging words to say, or no recipes to share, there is no need to bash this person's decisions. Just because eating meat is "the norm" according to society, and you don't agree with vegetarianism for YOUR PERSONAL decisions in life, then don't be a vegetarian, but don't go around bashing those who choose this lifestyle. Didn't anyone ever tell you "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all?"... This is supposed to be a SUPPORTIVE community. So BE SUPPORTIVE!"

To the OP, there are loads of websites out there which have some great vegetarian and vegan dishes, but just like any recipe, or purchased foods, you want to check the ingredients list and nutritional information for hidden calories, fats and sugars. Just because it's technically vegetarian, doesn't mean it's always good for you.

I don't remember what all some of the other posters may have listed, but here are a few more sites to get you started...

http://www.eatingwell.com/recipes_menus/collections/healthy_vegetarian_recipes
http://www.jamieoliver.com/recipes/vegetarian-recipes
http://www.vegetariantimes.com/
http://allrecipes.com/recipes/healthy-recipes/main-dishes/vegetarian/
http://www.foodnetwork.com/healthy_eating/healthy-vegetarian-recipes/pictures/index.html
http://www.cookinglight.com/food/vegetarian/

I'm wanting to know where the evidence about "meat causing cancer" info came from. If the OP doesn't want to eat meat, that's a personal choice, but to say that it's linked to cancer (meaning some here may think it actually causes it) isn't very responsible unless there are several peer reviewed clinical studies to actually show it.


A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

daffodilsoup

But it would be ridiculous to then conclude that because one cannot entirely avoid contributing to suffering, one should just give up altogether.

This is such an important and beautiful message.

HealthyAcademic

It would be awesome if people read the entire thread before asserting no one has supported claims. I have been trying to keep up and feel like people are posting without reading.

sally125

My family gave up meat for lots of reasons a few years ago. I agree try stay away from the fake meats etc. but I found there were helpful at the beginning when I wasn't sure what to do. I also have three kids so I until I found a homemade bean burger receipe that everyone liked we ate store bought meatless burgers and until I found a good combo of veggies and hummus wraps that my family liked we ate fake meat. I don't think it is a great long term solution but it help us transition during the first year. If you were like me I ate meat for 36 years before I made the switch be kind to yourself and give yourself sometime to develop new cooking skills and new ideas around what meals should look like.

themedalist

bump

Elizabeth_C34

_VoV

It would be awesome if people read the entire thread before asserting no one has supported claims. I have been trying to keep up and feel like people are posting without reading.

The tenor of this discussion makes me think the OP could provide a 10 page citation list from the best refereed journals in the world, subjected to meta-analysis by the brightest scientific minds in the world, and it wouldn't be enough. Some statements are made casually, but it doesn't mean they aren't true.