Giving up Meat

GymBunnyDG

I didnt call vegitarimism stupid, I said any OTHER reason than that then it would be stupid. To give up meat for the love of animals is a great thing, to give up meat for the avoidance of cancer or to simply lose weight is not good.

No good certified personal trainer will advise you to give up all meat in the intention of losing weight, and they are the specialists in weight loss, not Dr's - they may know what's good for your nutrition but do not specialise in losing weight - and considering that's the whole point in this, I would have thought you would want advise on what's good for losing weight.

And for the record I didn't call you stupid, I was merely stating that it would be a stupid idea.

Before you go ahead and attack me next time, realise you were the one looking for advice, that was my advice - take it or leave it, whatever works for you.

daffodilsoup

I didnt call vegitarimism stupid, I said any OTHER reason than that then it would be stupid. To give up meat for the love of animals is a great thing, to give up meat for the avoidance of cancer or to simply lose weight is not good.

No good certified personal trainer will advise you to give up all meat in the intention of losing weight, and they are the specialists in weight loss, not Dr's - they may know what's good for your nutrition but do not specialise in losing weight - and considering that's the whole point in this, I would have thought you would want advise on what's good for losing weight.

And for the record I didn't call you stupid, I was merely stating that it would be a stupid idea.

Before you go ahead and attack me next time, realise you were the one looking for advice, that was my advice - take it or leave it, whatever works for you.

Easy there. It was just confusing because "vegetarianism" refers to someone who excludes meat from their diet, not just for people who choose not to eat animals for ethical reasons. Most people [including me] probably just misunderstood what you meant.

GymBunnyDG

Lol I see what you mean, I could have been clearer. My apologies.

I do think it's fine to give up certain meats, mainly red meat, it wouldn't hurt, just think to give up ALL meat for the wrong reasons is a big decision.

Raclex

This is my choice!! Thanks for your input but you don't have to be negative!! : )

Unfortunately, that's the way it is... But don't let those posts get you down or discourage you. Some don't answer your question; they simply give you their personal opinion or two cents about why you should eat meat. As a matter of fact, they simply don't care about the poster's question. They care about preaching what THEY think is right.

So in the end, do what you want to do for YOU, from YOU, to YOU!

Keep in mind that there are also great suggestions here from healthy vegetarians and vegans that have been, by choice, for many years! So befriend them and share recipes, lifestyles and learn lots! I sure have ;-)

Haven74

I'm wanting to know where the evidence about "meat causing cancer" info came from. If the OP doesn't want to eat meat, that's a personal choice, but to say that it's linked to cancer (meaning some here may think it actually causes it) isn't very responsible unless there are several peer reviewed clinical studies to actually show it.


A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
[/quote]

Maybe you missed my other post...

I don't remember the specific wording of the OPs reply to someone who asked why they decided to give up meat, but I do remember OP saying something about either preventing or reducing risks of cancer(s). Saying meats cause cancer and not eating meat will prevent cancer is indeed inaccurate, but to say that meats are not a cause of *certain* cancers is also inaccurate. Yes, there are several types of cancers, and several ways to be susceptible to any number of those cancers, just as there are ways to REDUCE (not eliminate) your risks of developing certain types of cancer.

I'm not trying to say this to be argumentative, rather giving some clarification on the matter.
Eating a vegetarian diet will not prevent cancer, but reducing or eliminating your consumption of meats can reduce the risks to certain types of cancers.

Here are a few reputable articles regarding this matter -
http://preventcancer.aicr.org/site/PageServer?pagename=elements_red_processed_meat

http://www.cancerproject.org/survival/cancer_facts/meat.php

http://www.cancer.org/Healthy/EatHealthyGetActive/ACSGuidelinesonNutritionPhysicalActivityforCancerPrevention/acs-guidelines-on-nutrition-and-physical-activity-for-cancer-prevention-diet-cancer-questions

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/293/2/172.abstract

ninerbuff

I don't remember the specific wording of the OPs reply to someone who asked why they decided to give up meat, but I do remember OP saying something about either preventing or reducing risks of cancer(s). Saying meats cause cancer and not eating meat will prevent cancer is indeed inaccurate, but to say that meats are not a cause of *certain* cancers is also inaccurate. Yes, there are several types of cancers, and several ways to be susceptible to any number of those cancers, just as there are ways to REDUCE (not eliminate) your risks of developing certain types of cancer.

I'm not trying to say this to be argumentative, rather giving some clarification on the matter.
Eating a vegetarian diet will not prevent cancer, but reducing or eliminating your consumption of meats can reduce the risks to certain types of cancers.

Here are a few reputable articles regarding this matter -
http://preventcancer.aicr.org/site/PageServer?pagename=elements_red_processed_meat

http://www.cancerproject.org/survival/cancer_facts/meat.php

http://www.cancer.org/Healthy/EatHealthyGetActive/ACSGuidelinesonNutritionPhysicalActivityforCancerPrevention/acs-guidelines-on-nutrition-and-physical-activity-for-cancer-prevention-diet-cancer-questions

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/293/2/172.abstract

While I do agree less meat consumption can help to reduce the risk of cancer, it should be looked at objectively. You can definitely reduce risk of death from not driving or flying, but would completely abstaining from flying or driving be beneficial? Probably not.
It's a matter of personal preference, that I'm sure we agree on, but like any other food, if meat is consumed responsibly, then it can be part of a good diet.


A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

caisara

I have slowly been giving up meet since August. I gave up red meat and starting today, all meat together. I have never been one to really enjoy any bean recipes, but I am willing to give it a try!! If you know any great vegetarian dishes or ways to get more protein, please share!!

The trick is to NOT do meat substitutes. Treat tofu/seitan/etc. as their own entities.

The chefs who own Horizons Restaurant in Philadelphia have a really good cookbook that comes from this philosophy. The meals take a bit of preparation, but they're definitely worth it -- especially if you like Mexican or Brazilian food. It's not available through Amazon, so you have to email them directly for it.

If you're Western, you should probably avoid traditional Asian food. They view tofu differently than we do -- the ideal is to have something tasteless but with texture.

G'luck!

As for the questions about meat's relationship to cancer, it's a huge field. Here are some things to get you started:
https://www.who.int/cancer/prevention/en/
http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/Red-meat-and-colon-cancer.shtml
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/jul/01/vegetarians-blood-cancer-diet-risk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_meat#Other_Cancers

But personally, I don't think that's why you should forego meat. I think the cruelty to animals and carbon footprint arguments are much stronger.

tam120

One thing that I really don't understand, and probably never will, is people's incessant need to be troll-like when it comes to things they don't fully understand, or want to participate in for themselves.

If you have no supportive, encouraging words to say, or no recipes to share, there is no need to bash this person's decisions. Just because eating meat is "the norm" according to society, and you don't agree with vegetarianism for YOUR PERSONAL decisions in life, then don't be a vegetarian, but don't go around bashing those who choose this lifestyle. Didn't anyone ever tell you "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all?"... This is supposed to be a SUPPORTIVE community. So BE SUPPORTIVE!"

this ^^^ she didn't ask for opinions on her choice!
Seriously! Why is it necessary to tell her she's wrong. People live veg every day - LIVE, I say! There's nothing wrong with deciding to not eat meat.

The book I found most helpful was Vegan on the Cheap... it's vegan but if you don't want to give up dairy/eggs you can add those things. It gives you recipes for seitan, vegan "mayo" and vegan "sour cream" which I find is much better tasting that "cower cream".

fteale

And yet our teeth bear more resemblance to herbivores than other omnivore species........ Look at rats.


If they have incisors and canines they have an evolutionary history of eating meat. Trust me on this one lol.

Don't be naive. Guinea pigs have incisors. And vegetarian monkey species have canines.

I have studied human evolution at degree level including paleopathology. I don't need to trust you on this one. I know what I am talking about.

msarro

I was a vegetarian for about 4 years, and this past year switched to being a "localvore." I don't cook meat in my home, and I won't get meat unless I know the place where it came from, and have seen it with my own eyes - or if it is wild game. That limits me to about 3 restaurants in my area (all stick with sustainable meat supplies, and use local sources for meat), and a few close friends who hunt and from whom I'll buy some select cuts.

I originally went veg for financial reasons, and stuck with it for health. Now I avoid meat for ethical reasons. Driving by a factory meat plant every day is a sore reminder of some harsh realities on where 99% of meat comes from, and how the animals are treated.

As for replacing protein - you have a bunch of options -
Complete proteins:
dairy
eggs
soy (tofu, tempeh)

Incomplete proteins (eat combinations of these guys throughout the day):
Whole grains
Beans
Gluten (seitan)
Nuts

Altogether its really not that hard to get a decent level of protein. It just takes a little education. I highly recommend black bean chili, tofu parm, or seitan sausages. They're simple and delicious.

fteale

I can't give up meet; that's insulting to God.
If God did not want us eating animals, why did He make them out of meat?

Uh, humans are made of meat. So are dogs. God must want you to be a dog-eating zombie cannibal.

Humans are omnivores, as proven by our teeth. We can survive without meat, but we evolved eating both.

So? How does that matter? Humans used to be cave-dwellers once. Should that inform our dwelling choices now?

Being an omnivore means you can eat a whole spectrum of foods. Why not choose the best foods among them? Humans have the power of reason and discernment, so why not use it?

If you read breaking nutrition news, the overwhelming evidence is that a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is optimal for more reasons than I can list. At best, these studies indicate if there is any meat in the diet at all, that it should be treated like a condiment.

Take it easy, I was just telling the above guy I originally quoted that we evolved eating both. And yes, as far as your comment on dwelling goes, we still live in safest homes available to us....

Okay....I just thought we were on the cusp of the predictable 'But, what about our canine teeth?' thing. Glad we aren't.

This is such a murky area, I just read in New Scientist about the latest analysis of the preserved remains of a male hunter gatherer. When looking at the contents of his stomach they found it filled with meat and his gallbladder also indicated that he ate large amounts of fat. I should mention that he lived in a cold climate. If anyone is interested I can dig up the details and maybe find a link. It's in last week's New Scientist.

I believe the remains you are referring to are those of Otze man, who, while a very interesting example of an amazingly well preserved human doesn't tell us anything at all about what humans EVOLVED to eat because firstly, he was only from around 2000BC, which is negligible in evolutionary terms. He had tools on him, and was wearing clothing, he was already an advanced modern human, at a time 2000 years after the construction of the pyramids and 3000 or more years after the first towns, cities and complex social and farming hierarchies were in place. Secondly, he was making a long journey in a completely snow bound landscape. What plants do you think would have been available? None. He would have eaten what he could hunt and scavenge.
If you would like to compare his diet to other men from a similar time, have a look at studies of bog bodies. They are exclusively found to have stomachs and guts containing grains.

Extreme preservation environments are fascinating, and what I wrote my undergraduate thesis on. But are totally irrelevant to any argument about human dietary evolution.

NakedLunchTime

I can't give up meet; that's insulting to God.
If God did not want us eating animals, why did He make them out of meat?

Uh, humans are made of meat. So are dogs. God must want you to be a dog-eating zombie cannibal.

Humans are omnivores, as proven by our teeth. We can survive without meat, but we evolved eating both.

So? How does that matter? Humans used to be cave-dwellers once. Should that inform our dwelling choices now?

Being an omnivore means you can eat a whole spectrum of foods. Why not choose the best foods among them? Humans have the power of reason and discernment, so why not use it?

If you read breaking nutrition news, the overwhelming evidence is that a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is optimal for more reasons than I can list. At best, these studies indicate if there is any meat in the diet at all, that it should be treated like a condiment.

Um, I think he was just trying to be funny? lol

bcattoes

Giving up meat is 100% the worst thing you can do for a diet! Clean protein like chicken and white fish is the best thing for you whislt dieting - give up carbs if you are serious about dieting and want to change your diet. Giving up all meat (for any reason other than vegetarianism) is very very stupid.

So very not true.

fteale

Giving up meat is 100% the worst thing you can do for a diet! Clean protein like chicken and white fish is the best thing for you whislt dieting - give up carbs if you are serious about dieting and want to change your diet. Giving up all meat (for any reason other than vegetarianism) is very very stupid.

So very not true.

I was once told by a tricologist that vegetarianism was the very worst thing for you hair. Which is also so very very not true.

DeathIsMyGift

Good luck! I started eating less meat about a month ago. I'm not going to label myself a "vegetarian" because I still eat eggs and seafood from time to time. However, I'd say about 85% of my diet is meatless. I eat lots of black and pinto beans with brown rice and random veggies. It's a lot easier once you get a few go-to meals to choose from.

jenocelot

Congratulations! This is one of the best things you can do for your health! And, the cancer-causing research is undeniable. You will learn to love legumes and beans. Lentils are a good start because they cook up quickly and taste so good. I've been vegetarian fro 25 years; have never been overweight, run marathons, get plenty of protein. : ) Recipes and ways to go about vegetarianism are all over the net and bookstores. And hey, one of the first things I noticed when i stopped eating meat (in my twenties) -- you poop easier! ha it's true

msarro

Congratulations! This is one of the best things you can do for your health! And, the cancer-causing research is undeniable. You will learn to love legumes and beans. Lentils are a good start because they cook up quickly and taste so good. I've been vegetarian fro 25 years; have never been overweight, run marathons, get plenty of protein. : ) Recipes and ways to go about vegetarianism are all over the net and bookstores. And hey, one of the first things I noticed when i stopped eating meat (in my twenties) -- you poop easier! ha it's true

Just a heads up, not all lentils cook quickly Toor dal is a pain in the butt, you need a pressure cooker for it. But the plus side is it tastes AWESOME!

danniellexxx

I am a vegetarian just of family choice.... so I cannot really give advice, but I have never wanted to try meat, so I don't really have any advice for you

anewdeb2012

I encourage you to watch a few documentaries. One is called Fat, Sick and nearly dead and the other is called Forks over knives. These will give you great insight into the big myth surrounding protein and that if you don't eat meat, you are lacking protein. There is another one out there but I forget the name of it. these two guys tested their strands of hair and found themselves to be over 90% corn. our cows are fed corn, not grains, our food is laden with HFCS, and oh the list goes on and on and on. Oh, one last documentary called Food, Inc...it explains a lot. Good luck to you. I have been vegetarian for 24 years.

_VoV

I can't give up meet; that's insulting to God.
If God did not want us eating animals, why did He make them out of meat?

Uh, humans are made of meat. So are dogs. God must want you to be a dog-eating zombie cannibal.

Humans are omnivores, as proven by our teeth. We can survive without meat, but we evolved eating both.

Um, I think he was just trying to be funny? lol

Upon rereading this, he was. I think I just had a knee-jerk response.

I've been a vegetarian for almost 40 years, and when I start hearing about teeth in relationship to vegetarianism, it makes me a little crazy. This is from countless arguments I have had on what constitutes the natural diet for humans. When I think I recognize the beginnings of this argument taking shape again, my eye starts twitching, my nostrils flare, and if I'm really stupid, I start typing or talking. Always a mistake. Sorry.

anewdeb2012

our teeth have little to do with meat eating in these times. Meat in our ancestors days was pure, natural and not laden with growth hormones or fed only corn. A lot has changed in our food industry since our teeth were created.

anewdeb2012

I can't give up meet; that's insulting to God.
If God did not want us eating animals, why did He make them out of meat?

Uh, humans are made of meat. So are dogs. God must want you to be a dog-eating zombie cannibal.

Humans are omnivores, as proven by our teeth. We can survive without meat, but we evolved eating both.

So? How does that matter? Humans used to be cave-dwellers once. Should that inform our dwelling choices now?

Being an omnivore means you can eat a whole spectrum of foods. Why not choose the best foods among them? Humans have the power of reason and discernment, so why not use it?

If you read breaking nutrition news, the overwhelming evidence is that a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is optimal for more reasons than I can list. At best, these studies indicate if there is any meat in the diet at all, that it should be treated like a condiment.

Um, I think he was just trying to be funny? lol

God did not want us "messing" with our meat like we do today. He made it pure and wholesome as it was. Our industry is the one who messed it up with growth hormones and unnaturally feeding it.

tidmutt

I can't give up meet; that's insulting to God.
If God did not want us eating animals, why did He make them out of meat?

Uh, humans are made of meat. So are dogs. God must want you to be a dog-eating zombie cannibal.

Humans are omnivores, as proven by our teeth. We can survive without meat, but we evolved eating both.

So? How does that matter? Humans used to be cave-dwellers once. Should that inform our dwelling choices now?

Being an omnivore means you can eat a whole spectrum of foods. Why not choose the best foods among them? Humans have the power of reason and discernment, so why not use it?

If you read breaking nutrition news, the overwhelming evidence is that a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is optimal for more reasons than I can list. At best, these studies indicate if there is any meat in the diet at all, that it should be treated like a condiment.

Take it easy, I was just telling the above guy I originally quoted that we evolved eating both. And yes, as far as your comment on dwelling goes, we still live in safest homes available to us....

Okay....I just thought we were on the cusp of the predictable 'But, what about our canine teeth?' thing. Glad we aren't.

This is such a murky area, I just read in New Scientist about the latest analysis of the preserved remains of a male hunter gatherer. When looking at the contents of his stomach they found it filled with meat and his gallbladder also indicated that he ate large amounts of fat. I should mention that he lived in a cold climate. If anyone is interested I can dig up the details and maybe find a link. It's in last week's New Scientist.

I believe the remains you are referring to are those of Otze man, who, while a very interesting example of an amazingly well preserved human doesn't tell us anything at all about what humans EVOLVED to eat because firstly, he was only from around 2000BC, which is negligible in evolutionary terms. He had tools on him, and was wearing clothing, he was already an advanced modern human, at a time 2000 years after the construction of the pyramids and 3000 or more years after the first towns, cities and complex social and farming hierarchies were in place. Secondly, he was making a long journey in a completely snow bound landscape. What plants do you think would have been available? None. He would have eaten what he could hunt and scavenge.
If you would like to compare his diet to other men from a similar time, have a look at studies of bog bodies. They are exclusively found to have stomachs and guts containing grains.

Extreme preservation environments are fascinating, and what I wrote my undergraduate thesis on. But are totally irrelevant to any argument about human dietary evolution.

I did mention that he was in a cold climate, I apologize if it wasn't obvious that I was implying that it meant limited access to plants, but that was my intention when I mentioned it. Yes, there have been other findings suggesting our ancestors consumed grain even prior to agriculture but that hardly refutes the hypothesis on which most Paleo diets are based given the amount consumed would have been tiny compared to what is available now. There are also the arguments that grain has changed in modern times due to human intervention and we also eat highly processed grain. The article I read indicated it supported the hypothesis for high saturated fat consumption on the part of our earlier ancestors but I admit to being lazy and not drilling down on it yet. Thanks for the clarification.

I believe in this case the gallbladder remains indicated long term fat consumption but again, if he lived in a cold climate year round then this isn't surprising. Given, as you say the time period of the remains is after the invention of agriculture then it's not surprising that other remains from the same period show grain consumption. Regardless, one data point based on a single preserved remain is insufficient anyway, I mentioned it only because I thought it was interesting, as you said, it's a fascinating area. Personally, I think it's fairly obvious that we could not have eaten grain in the quantities we now do (and are encouraged to do) for most of our evolution.

tidmutt

I encourage you to watch a few documentaries. One is called Fat, Sick and nearly dead and the other is called Forks over knives. These will give you great insight into the big myth surrounding protein and that if you don't eat meat, you are lacking protein. There is another one out there but I forget the name of it. these two guys tested their strands of hair and found themselves to be over 90% corn. our cows are fed corn, not grains, our food is laden with HFCS, and oh the list goes on and on and on. Oh, one last documentary called Food, Inc...it explains a lot. Good luck to you. I have been vegetarian for 24 years.

I've watched both, the first one was moving and interesting but provides little evidence to support eliminating meat. The second one is based on the China Study which is a classic example of how a good scientist should understand that correlation does not equal causation. The study has been pulled apart by numerous people and shown to be inconsistent and misleading. I don't care that much about correlations, find and prove the physical mechanism that leads to disease then I'm interested. The correlations are only a starting point.

Food Inc. was depressing but you can find sources of meat that are raised humanely and are more nutritious. The options are growing as more people realize how corrupted the food supply is.

dnoel22

Yay Vegetarians!!

jadedone

I know you said you're not big into bean recipes, but the other night we had taco night at my parents house and I replaced the meat in my taco with black beans. IT WAS DELICIOUS.

Of course it wasn't the healthiest choice (beans, lettuce, cheese, and sour cream in a tortilla), but if you can ever afford to splurge a bit I seriously suggest black bean tacos.

I made some excellent veggie soft tacos with corn tortillas:
roasted winter squash or sweet potatoes , sauteed spinach or chard, beans, salsa and avocado (optional) with queso fresco or a very sharp cheese. You don't need much cheese if it is really sharp. Anyway this was an excellent combo, very filling and covered 3-4 servings of veggies!

FORKDOWN

Whew............... was afraid my Wife posted this.

veganbaum

Food Inc. was depressing but you can find sources of meat that are raised humanely and are more nutritious. The options are growing as more people realize how corrupted the food supply is.

OP - I sincerely apologize for being a part of this hijack of your thread. I hope you have found helpful information for recipes from the suggestions that have been provided.

In terms of this post - it's important to note that there is no one definition of humane, so that is debatable. And, most labels that say "humane" allow for the continuation of modern practices. So, really, unless you can visit the farm yourself, you can be fairly certain you are contributing to intense farming animal practices. Last I checked, the only label that allowed only independent farmers to apply (and I think, though I may be wrong, also does not allow common husbandry practices) is Animal Welfare Approved:
http://www.animalwelfareapproved.org/consumers/food-labels/

jadedone

Meatless suggestions:
Indian, Latin, Middle Eastern and African cuisins have tons of meatless options check out some cookbooks from the library to get recipe ideas.

If you can find fresh tofu, it is worth it. It is infinitely better tasting than the regular stuff. There is also a tofu byproduct called "yuba." This has great meaty texture and can bu used in all kinds of dishes. Tofu is a sponge, it soaks up the flavor of its neighbors. So keep that in mind if you are cooking with it.

Good luck!

CallmeSbo

bump