Veggies vs Meat

VegesaurusRex

Okay, another string got hijacked by meat eaters which wasn't fair to the OP who was just trying to get vegetarian recipes. However, my wife did not want to be messed with by the meat lovers so I suggested opening this thread. Let's talk about the merits of vegetarianism, or if you prefer, carnivorism. And let's talk about why we are all vegetarians by design, or if you prefer, carnivores. Let's throw in physiology, anthropology, and paleo-ism. Open team tag match. GO!

_VoV

I'm really not sure THIS is the place for controversial discussions either. I'm going to see where people who enjoy debates go.

UponThisRock

I rest my case.

tidmutt

Okay, VegesarusRexiMaximus, dazzle me with your arguments as to why I should rely on correlations alone when making decisions about my health and well being (and anything else for that matter).

tidmutt

I rest my case.

I want to roll around in it's juices.

tidmutt

Okay, another string got hijacked by meat eaters which wasn't fair to the OP who was just trying to get vegetarian recipes. However, my wife did not want to be messed with by the meat lovers so I suggested opening this thread. Let's talk about the merits of vegetarianism, or if you prefer, carnivorism. And let's talk about why we are all vegetarians by design, or if you prefer, carnivores. Let's throw in physiology, anthropology, and paleo-ism. Open team tag match. GO!

Okay, lets quote the OP of the original thread:

"Well, I gave up red meat because it really just seems to not be that great for my health. It's been tied to cancer etc. Then, I just decided I wanted to give up the rest of it and really focus on getting a lot more veggies into my diet. I don't know if I will keep it up forever, but I just needed to shake up my diet a bit so I can lose some more. : ) "

She didn't just ask for recipes, just to be clear. I think much of the ensuing discussion was perfectly reasonable although some people acted like douches, but then there are always a few on every forum.

weightwatcher4life

I rest my case.

I love meat, I love meat that is well done.. but that just made me want to become a vegetable eater only

VegesaurusRex

Okay, I see you have had Stat 101, correlation vs causation. Since you are making this argument, the burden is on you to show that there is no causation. The argument was made, by the way by a Ph.D, Biochemist who not only knows something about statistics, but who, as part of a sophisticated laboratory has a resident statistician available to check correlations. I don't really expect you will be able to do a regression analysis (for simple data, Stat 102), or Pearson product moment correlation coefficient (Stat 103) I would appreciate it, however if you could give me some RATIONAL explanation of why you think there was correlation without causation. Please, not "common sense."

Thomasm198

Okay, I see you have had Stat 101, correlation vs causation. Since you are making this argument, the burden is on you to show that there is no causation. The argument was made, by the way by a Ph.D, Biochemist who not only knows something about statistics, but who, as part of a sophisticated laboratory has a resident statistician available to check correlations. I don't really expect you will be able to do a regression analysis (for simple data, Stat 102), or Pearson product moment correlation coefficient (Stat 103) I would appreciate it, however if you could give me some RATIONAL explanation of why you think there was correlation without causation. Please, not "common sense."

Can you put that into plain simple English for us normal people?

deeharley

Okay, I have a question about the red meat causing cancer. Was that red meat real red meat or the stuff that America sells and labels USDA approved?

SinIsIn

I like vegetable WITH my meat. :bigsmile:

deeharley

Okay, I see you have had Stat 101, correlation vs causation. Since you are making this argument, the burden is on you to show that there is no causation. The argument was made, by the way by a Ph.D, Biochemist who not only knows something about statistics, but who, as part of a sophisticated laboratory has a resident statistician available to check correlations. I don't really expect you will be able to do a regression analysis (for simple data, Stat 102), or Pearson product moment correlation coefficient (Stat 103) I would appreciate it, however if you could give me some RATIONAL explanation of why you think there was correlation without causation. Please, not "common sense."

Can you put that into plain simple English for us normal people?

I think he just said, "I'm smart and use big words so everyone should be a vegetarian."

Scott613

Okay, I see you have had Stat 101, correlation vs causation. Since you are making this argument, the burden is on you to show that there is no causation. The argument was made, by the way by a Ph.D, Biochemist who not only knows something about statistics, but who, as part of a sophisticated laboratory has a resident statistician available to check correlations. I don't really expect you will be able to do a regression analysis (for simple data, Stat 102), or Pearson product moment correlation coefficient (Stat 103) I would appreciate it, however if you could give me some RATIONAL explanation of why you think there was correlation without causation. Please, not "common sense."

Blah blah blah pass me a steak

HMonsterX

I rest my case.

I love meat, I love meat that is well done.. but that just made me want to become a vegetable eater only

Same here tbh. Im pretty much a carnivore, but it has to be well done, no pinkness etc.

JellyJaks

Okay, I see you have had Stat 101, correlation vs causation. Since you are making this argument, the burden is on you to show that there is no causation. The argument was made, by the way by a Ph.D, Biochemist who not only knows something about statistics, but who, as part of a sophisticated laboratory has a resident statistician available to check correlations. I don't really expect you will be able to do a regression analysis (for simple data, Stat 102), or Pearson product moment correlation coefficient (Stat 103) I would appreciate it, however if you could give me some RATIONAL explanation of why you think there was correlation without causation. Please, not "common sense."

Riiight....so using big words and trying to make other people feel stupid is how you get your jollies. I'm a pescetarian BECAUSE I CHOOSE TO BE. I feel no need to justify it especially to a pompous *kitten*. Have a nice day

VegesaurusRex

Some things cause other things to happen, and some things are either caused by the same thing, or just happen to look like they are related. For example, studies show that Finns who learn to speak other Nordic neighbors have 25% fewer illnesses than those who do not learn other Nordic languages. Can we therefore conclude that learning Swedish will help you stay healthy? Probably not. Most likely this is a correlation not a causation. Perhaps those Finns who learned Swedish were wealthier and better educated, and THAT was the reason why they avoided illnesses, i.e., they took more intelligent care of themselves.

Thomasm198

Meat and Veggies: A burger, bacon and onion rings.

Thomasm198

Some things cause other things to happen, and some things are either caused by the same thing, or just happen to look like they are related. For example, studies show that Finns who learn to speak other Nordic neighbors have 25% fewer illnesses than those who do not learn other Nordic languages. Can we therefore conclude that learning Swedish will help you stay healthy? Probably not. Most likely this is a correlation not a causation. Perhaps those Finns who learned Swedish were wealthier and better educated, and THAT was the reason why they avoided illnesses, i.e., they took more intelligent care of themselves.

EricMurano

Can't I have both?

VegesaurusRex

Okay, a poster raises a statistical objection to T. Colin Campbell's work stating, as he apparently learned in Stat 101 that what Campbell found could be a correlation not a causality. I asked him to state his objection precisely, i.e., was he using statistical methodology, or just "common sense." Now I am getting objections to using the proper statistical terms in stating my questions. I guess my question is, do people on this board want to speak English, or something else?

nukehiker

I like vegetable WITH my meat. :bigsmile:

I choose this method of food consumtion. I like a meat and a vegetable and maybe a starch with my meals. I do love red meats but have choosen to get healthier versions of these and reduce the fat. I try to eat lean proteins. that includes egg whites with breakfast. Not sure if i could ever go vegetarian since i love mean, poultry etc but good luck to those who are.

_VoV

This thread was created when another thread was hijacked by meat-lovers. THAT thread was started by a woman who was looking for some advice for meatless eating. She wasn't interested in debating this question. I would say that trolls are thread disrupters, not people who are putting it out that they like spirited discussion in an honest way.

But there's nothing spirited about pictures of meat. ::yawn::

VegesaurusRex

Stop eating meat, and your veins and arteries will become less occluded, and you will be able to think better, and probably do other things better that you are probably having trouble with right now.

RAFValentina

I rest my case.

This made me want to go out and buy a steak and eat it uncooked from the packet....mmm ...meat... Yum yum yum... I love the texture of rare meat... However... I do love my veggies and try and eat a veggie heavy diet with meat very rarely, however the odd slice of ham with lunch most days so it's all there... I consider myself a nigh on pescetarian as I try to make my diet fish and veggies only. Not even eggs. but need to get the ham slices out!

sdailey4

http://www.dadamo.com/ This site gives a small snip of what you should/should not eat based on your blood type. I find it accurate in our home. My daughter and husband have a really hard time digesting meat, she doesn't really eat any meat, and he seems to do fine as long as it's chicken or turkey (type A's) they do well w/starches/carbs as nutrients. I however crash w/o meat, (I am a type O) which I am sure is the protein source, I don't do well at all w/starches and carbs they just pack the pounds on me, be it whole grain wheat or a red potatoes, but it's easier for me to stick w/what I know how to cook then waste time and money trying to learn how to cook tofu or use nuts as meats etc.

Carl01

JellyJaks

Some things cause other things to happen, and some things are either caused by the same thing, or just happen to look like they are related. For example, studies show that Finns who learn to speak other Nordic neighbors have 25% fewer illnesses than those who do not learn other Nordic languages. Can we therefore conclude that learning Swedish will help you stay healthy? Probably not. Most likely this is a correlation not a causation. Perhaps those Finns who learned Swedish were wealthier and better educated, and THAT was the reason why they avoided illnesses, i.e., they took more intelligent care of themselves.

:laugh: :laugh: It sure is kitty

rrrbecca11

There are intelligent posters here, but most of the vegetarian ones, at least, have learned from experience not to engage for fear of having their jugulars torn open by threatened carnivores.

vsmurrow

One time I was sitting in a group of "proud omnivores" who were exchanging and comparing foods they "couldn't live without".

"Oh gosh, I could never be a vegetarian! I love my bacon too much!"
"Oh I just love steak way too much. And protein. I can't get enough protein, it seems!"
"I know what you mean about the protein! I'm an absolute b*tch if I don't reach my quota!"

And it's not like I was all sweetness and light, sad and contrite. I wasn't pleading with them to remember that "people are starving!" Nah, I was just as bad. I was like, "Puh-thetic..." (How rude, I know).

So I've been a vegan for 14 months.

To prove that I can.

tidmutt

Okay, I see you have had Stat 101, correlation vs causation. Since you are making this argument, the burden is on you to show that there is no causation. The argument was made, by the way by a Ph.D, Biochemist who not only knows something about statistics, but who, as part of a sophisticated laboratory has a resident statistician available to check correlations. I don't really expect you will be able to do a regression analysis (for simple data, Stat 102), or Pearson product moment correlation coefficient (Stat 103) I would appreciate it, however if you could give me some RATIONAL explanation of why you think there was correlation without causation. Please, not "common sense."

Actually, I performed multivariate regression analysis on numerous occasions while at university, but I suppose that's not relevant.

I'm not saying the correlations are not there, I'm sure his resident statistician did his job very well. However, that doesn't change the fact that although for example two variables may be correlated there may actually be another possible explanation for the observed correlation. I don't even know why we are discussing this to be honest, this is hardly controversial.

Here is a very relevant explanation of this phenomenon:

http://stats.org/in_depth/faq/causation_correlation.htm

Actually, the burden is not on me to disprove causation, I'm not the Ph.D who did the study and made the claims. He found the correlations, formed a hypothesis and should do everything he can to attempt to disprove it. I dare say he formed the hypothesis and then found the proof in his correlations...

I noticed you mentioned the Ph.D Biochemist. Many of the arguments I've seen for the China Study often include "he's a super scientist with a Ph.D and a squillion credentials". Seriously? That makes him no less subject to bias than any other human being, in fact, it might make him more susceptible.

Carl01

Look,each to their own,if a person wants to be a vegetarian or vegan that is perfectly fine,each to their own and I have friends here and in real life on all sides of food preferences.
I did not see the first thread so can`t comment on it but in this one you (the op) clearly signed up today with an ax to grind and started a thread for the sole intent of being insulting.
That was shown in your first reply so spare us the woe is me nonsense...the thread has headed exactly where you pointed it.