Veggies vs Meat

savage22hp

I'm a meat eater...always will be! BTW, meat just tastes better when you kill it yourself :happy:

So , you are the one killing the animals behind the restaurant .....

VegesaurusRex

What exactly is paleo/primal? I have heard that term but do not know what it refers to.

It's an approach to nutrition based on eating what we supposedly ate for the majority of our evolution, at least in our current form. There are various forms including Paleo which often excludes dairy and Primal which allows diary if you tolerate it. Personally I subscribe to Primal which allows for a greater emphasis on n=1 and I feel is not as dogmatic. It's difficult to lock down exactly what our Paleolithic diet is since it would have varied greatly depending on geographic location but in a nutshell it focuses on whole foods, a good amount of vegetables and fruits, animal protein, fat and little processed carbohydrates. Animal protein such as beef should come from pastured, grass fed animals for it's superior omega 3/6 ratio.

Saturated fat is the most controversial aspect of Primal (some versions of Paleo are leaner) and is what often causes dieticians to have fits and start speaking in tongues (my sister included).

Okay, thanks for the explanation. What period of human evolution do you revert to? Anatomically modern Humans? Archaic homo? Australopithecine? Their diets all varied and they were all forms of humans. They were, by and large, mostly vegetarian, and scavanged, eating what they could catch like worms, slugs, and mostly plants.

fteale

What exactly is paleo/primal? I have heard that term but do not know what it refers to.

It's an approach to nutrition based on eating what we supposedly ate for the majority of our evolution, at least in our current form. There are various forms including Paleo which often excludes dairy and Primal which allows diary if you tolerate it. Personally I subscribe to Primal which allows for a greater emphasis on n=1 and I feel is not as dogmatic. It's difficult to lock down exactly what our Paleolithic diet is since it would have varied greatly depending on geographic location but in a nutshell it focuses on whole foods, a good amount of vegetables and fruits, animal protein, fat and little processed carbohydrates. Animal protein such as beef should come from pastured, grass fed animals for it's superior omega 3/6 ratio.

Saturated fat is the most controversial aspect of Primal (some versions of Paleo are leaner) and is what often causes dieticians to have fits and start speaking in tongues (my sister included).

Okay, thanks for the explanation. What period of human evolution do you revert to? Anatomically modern Humans? Archaic homo? Australopithecine? Their diets all varied and they were all forms of humans. They were, by and large, mostly vegetarian, and scavanged, eating what they could catch like worms, slugs, and mostly plants.

I believe most base it on a human diet around 6-10000 years ago, which seems arbitrary to me, and not indicative of what we evolved to eat, as that is incredibly recent in evolutionary terms, but that seems to be the gist of it.

Of course, back then humans breastfed up to 5 or 6 years old, so children were getting milk, just not from cows. And in many nomadic societies it is still completely normal for all members of the family to drink a lactating mother's milk once the child is no longer exclusively breastfed. Milk isn't the enemy, but I can see the issue with COW milk.

tidmutt

So the burden is on the POSTER to prove why a study is flawed because a guy with a Ph.D. only found CORRELATION and not causation.
If you're going to make assumptions and blanket statements based off of a CORRELATION, then the study is obviously flawed. That's Stats 101, right there. Data Interpretation.

Yup. He is the one claiming the study is flawed. His reason: common sense. If you truly buy that as a legitimate criticism, then you didn't learn much from your statistics course.

Wow, way to misconstrue. My reason as to why I did not put much faith in the conclusions from the study was that correlation <> causation. I said that this is common sense, and I believe it is. One doesn't need to be a statistician to know that correlations can be found just about anywhere, especially if you are looking.

Okay, if I misunderstood, what PRECISELY were you objecting to in the Campbell study. I have the book right here so if you want to cite page numbers, that would be fine.

I've given you all the specifics you need. He found correlations, that's not sufficient evidence to draw a conclusion. By all means investigate those correlations further using better tools like randomized, controlled studies. Don't expect me to believe his personal conclusions based just on those correlations.

I guess I am asking you WHAT correlations you are referring to. Clearly there was a correlation found in several parts of China between the percentage of plants in the population's diet, and the health benefits in terms of chronic disease. The population was large and was followed for ten years. What exactly are you saying that Campbell missed?

Any number of confounding variables. Nutrient density in the soil that those plants were grown in, the fact that those that ate more plants may also have had other lifestyle habits that are protective. He also correlated animal protein consumption with cholesterol levels and claimed this increased risk of heart disease. Why not correlate with actual incidents of CHD?

fteale

I apologise if I sound like I am criticising the concept of palaeo eating. I think it is a far more honest way to eat than the majority of people who just want food that looks like it came from a packet.

I just think from what I have seen of it in practice, it seems to be based on a very narrow and not necessarily accurate picture of a specific period of history, and not on actual biology. But still way better than thinking McDonalds is food, for sure.

tidmutt

I believe most base it on a human diet around 6-10000 years ago, which seems arbitrary to me, and not indicative of what we evolved to eat, as that is incredibly recent in evolutionary terms, but that seems to be the gist of it.

Of course, back then humans breastfed up to 5 or 6 years old, so children were getting milk, just not from cows. And in many nomadic societies it is still completely normal for all members of the family to drink a lactating mother's milk once the child is no longer exclusively breastfed. Milk isn't the enemy, but I can see the issue with COW milk.

Please, lets not complicate this thread with a debate on the merits of the Paleo diet. LOL

But just to clarify, it's an attempt to recreate the nutritional profile consumed prior to agriculture, hence why processed grain is usually eliminated with some recognition that some processes used to remove anti-nutrients such soaking, fermenting etc. make it more acceptable.

There is some great research in this area, I can't do it justice, feel free to google for more information and draw your own conclusions.

tidmutt

I apologise if I sound like I am criticising the concept of palaeo eating. I think it is a far more honest way to eat than the majority of people who just want food that looks like it came from a packet.

I just think from what I have seen of it in practice, it seems to be based on a very narrow and not necessarily accurate picture of a specific period of history, and not on actual biology. But still way better than thinking McDonalds is food, for sure.

Well, there are many "camps". Some are far less dogmatic and attempt to use Primal/Paleo as a foundation but informed by science. That's what I like about it.

VegesaurusRex

So the burden is on the POSTER to prove why a study is flawed because a guy with a Ph.D. only found CORRELATION and not causation.
If you're going to make assumptions and blanket statements based off of a CORRELATION, then the study is obviously flawed. That's Stats 101, right there. Data Interpretation.

Yup. He is the one claiming the study is flawed. His reason: common sense. If you truly buy that as a legitimate criticism, then you didn't learn much from your statistics course.

Wow, way to misconstrue. My reason as to why I did not put much faith in the conclusions from the study was that correlation <> causation. I said that this is common sense, and I believe it is. One doesn't need to be a statistician to know that correlations can be found just about anywhere, especially if you are looking.

Okay, if I misunderstood, what PRECISELY were you objecting to in the Campbell study. I have the book right here so if you want to cite page numbers, that would be fine.

I've given you all the specifics you need. He found correlations, that's not sufficient evidence to draw a conclusion. By all means investigate those correlations further using better tools like randomized, controlled studies. Don't expect me to believe his personal conclusions based just on those correlations.

I guess I am asking you WHAT correlations you are referring to. Clearly there was a correlation found in several parts of China between the percentage of plants in the population's diet, and the health benefits in terms of chronic disease. The population was large and was followed for ten years. What exactly are you saying that Campbell missed?

Any number of confounding variables. Nutrient density in the soil that those plants were grown in, the fact that those that ate more plants may also have had other lifestyle habits that are protective. He also correlated animal protein consumption with cholesterol levels and claimed this increased risk of heart disease. Why not correlate with actual incidents of CHD?

Boy, you are really asking for a lot of variables. You are correct in that the PERFECT Study would be to have hundreds and possibly thousands of variables. But that is not really practical As for CHD, do you realize how long you would have to follow a population to say anything about the nutrient density of the soil and heart disease?

_VoV

I apologise if I sound like I am criticising the concept of palaeo eating. I think it is a far more honest way to eat than the majority of people who just want food that looks like it came from a packet.

I just think from what I have seen of it in practice, it seems to be based on a very narrow and not necessarily accurate picture of a specific period of history, and not on actual biology. But still way better than thinking McDonalds is food, for sure.

I found your comments interesting, and agree that, strictly from a nutritional standpoint, I think paleo is a more honest way of eating than the typical highly processed Western diet. I still think it could come over to the green side, and be even better!

_Timmeh_

Ultimately this thread has little to do with continuing the scientific debate around meat consumption that started in the other thread. It's about the persecution complex that many vegetarians suffer from. I sympathize with them, it's tough to go against social norms. I experience the same push back when I tell people I eat Paleo/Primal, people often look at me in horror and tell me I'm going to die of a heart attack, they often clutch their chests too. Very dramatic.

I have nothing against vegetarians, I never said anything negative about them, I respect your choices even if I don't agree with them.

Actually, huge efforts were made to continue that debate. That's actually what I found interesting on the other thread, but thought that was the wrong venue. But, some people complained about the big words. Others posted pictures of bloody meat on a plate. That was not what this thread was created for. Bring on the debate...

Yes debate, not make it personal and discredit someone for their accomplishments.

_VoV

Ultimately this thread has little to do with continuing the scientific debate around meat consumption that started in the other thread. It's about the persecution complex that many vegetarians suffer from. I sympathize with them, it's tough to go against social norms. I experience the same push back when I tell people I eat Paleo/Primal, people often look at me in horror and tell me I'm going to die of a heart attack, they often clutch their chests too. Very dramatic.

I have nothing against vegetarians, I never said anything negative about them, I respect your choices even if I don't agree with them.

Actually, huge efforts were made to continue that debate. That's actually what I found interesting on the other thread, but thought that was the wrong venue. But, some people complained about the big words. Others posted pictures of bloody meat on a plate. That was not what this thread was created for. Bring on the debate...

Yes debate, not make it personal and discredit someone for their accomplishments.

What ARE you talking about?????

MaximalLife

If you're a male and your partner doesn't eat meat, you need to find a new partner.

You got that right!

If my wife gave up meat, it's time to hit the bricks.

tlsegar

However, studies show that consuming large quantities of red meat, preserved meats, salt-preserved meats, and salt probably increases the risk of stomach and colorectal cancers. Research also shows that a diet high in fruits and vegetables may decrease the risks of these cancers. And calorie restriction has been shown to reduce cancer risk for several cancer types.

Eat a healthy calorie-restricted diet rich in whole grains, fruits, and vegetables. Avoid consuming large amounts of fatty foods, red meats, salt, or salt-preserved food.

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/understandingcancer/environment/page1/AllPages

Note that it says LARGE quantities of red meat, salt and salt preserved food. Lol, but Asians have been eating SPAM since it's inception!

Asians have some of the highest rates of stomach cancer...

rico1923

One time I was sitting in a group of "proud omnivores" who were exchanging and comparing foods they "couldn't live without".
...
So I've been a vegan for 14 months.

To prove that I can.

Being an omnivore to me has been best. I have studied how to use medicinal herbs, roots and fungi through a school run by Michael Tierra and one of the first things he brings up in his writings is, "Name one nation where the population were mostly vegans that has pushed civilization forward". For every George Bernard Shaw and Gloria Swanson there are vegans that died in their 40's. On the flip side the western world's primeval hot-wiring to like meat and processed foods has caused a sharp rise in obesity, type 2 diabetes, colon cancer and other illnesses that some current doctors like to call 'food borne illness'; I regard only bacterial (e. coli) or toxin (botulism) based disease as 'food borne illness' but until there is a better definition I'll go with that. Removing meat/dairy entirely from your diet means you must have enough sources of B-12, Omega-3 fatty acids, complementary proteins, calcium, manganese, niacin and a host of other nutrients from the food available to you to keep your body running properly. Without the ability to get that variety year 'round some meat in your diet is probably able to take up the slack.

I am content eating at most 2-4 oz. of meat a day; and I am content that the minimum 92% of the rest of my diet consisting of fat free yogurt, 1 oz. portions of various cheeses, seeds, grains, nuts, pseudo cereals, greens, legumes, pulses, fruits, vegetables, etc. supplies over 90g of protein, plenty of fiber, minerals and micro-nutrients I need to feel my best. More power to anyone who looks at a protein shake as a meal but that ain't me; more power to anyone who can eat that 16 oz. porterhouse steak dinner or those 2 lbs. of chicken wings; more power to the raw foodists who usually own more kitchen gadgets than someone who cooks; I'm the guy stuck explaining to co-workers that just because I choose to eat a meal sized salad doesn't mean I'm on a vegetarian diet or getting told by the vegan Gestapo that eating meat causes illness and more pollution than all the cars of the world put together. I'm just the guy who enjoys eating actual food and uses my food choices to keep my blood's PH more on the alkaline side, my cholesterol on the right side of 180, gives me the best shot at keeping my lifestyle long term and allows me to keep my energy up all day with little help from caffeine.

ARDuBaie

Both manners of eating have their virtues:

Carnivore:
Pros - Nice, easy protein source. Protein staves off hunger longer. Excellent for those people who need lots of protein (weight lifters). Meat is not the only source of protein. Eggs and diary products can also supply protein.
Con - When meat is metabolized, it's waste product binds to calcium in order to be cleared from the body. This can lead to osteoporosis. Americans eat way too much meat. Men need only about 53 grams of protein, women 45. If lifting weights or doing manual labor, the need increases. Most Americans do not lift weights or do manual labor that stresses the muscles, yet they consume over 100 grams of protein a day. This taxes the kidneys and can lead to obesity, hypercholestremia, and other diseases. Although commercials insist drinking milk will prevent osteoporosis, research does not support this. Milk is like meat, needing to bind to calcium to be removed from the body. On a side note, eggs are not as high in cholesterol as once thought and really do not have as many bad affects on the body as other animal protein sources.

Vegetarian/Vegan:
Pros - Most who follow this diet have very low cholesterol labs and rarely are they afflicted with diabetes. This is due to the fact that most true vegetarians/vegans are not overweight. This diet is easy on the digestive system, often helpful with irritable bowel disease.
Cons - Requires careful planning to get adequate vitamins and minerals, as well as protein. Many have trouble getting enough B12, Iron, and D in their diets. Those who do not plan carefully or use a protein shake have problems getting adequate amounts of protein. Additionally, there are some who are 'vegetarian' that exist on a diet of donuts, potato chips, and other junk food. That is not healthy and is not being a vegetarian. That is being a junk-aholic.

I will not get into the ethical considerations, but when it comes to meat please consider that animals raise in any manner other than free-ranges are going to be loaded with antibiotics, hormones, and disease. That is not a healthy environment for animals. I used to work for the FDA, testing slaughterhouses and feedlots. I will not go into what I saw, but rest assure that my meat comes from an organic, free-range farm where I was allowed to walk the fields, see the animals and how they were treated, and even feed and care for them. Yes, it is more expensive, but if you are going through all this work to lose weight and get healthy, why only go half-way.

When I get my act together again, I want to go back to being a vegetarian. My labs were so much better and I felt so good that I really miss it. That is my primary goal - to eventually be vegetarian again.

Steven

My apologies to anyone who missed this thread when it disappeared yesterday. I was up to my neck in moderation requests and did not have time to purge the violations and borderline-violations from the thread, so I took the extreme shortcut of simply removing it. Clearly it was missed, and I've restored it this morning after finding the time to edit as necessary.

Sorry for the bait-and-switch routine. Definitely not up to my normal standards of moderation.

Happy New Year,
Steven
MyFitnessPal Staff

fteale

Cons - Requires careful planning to get adequate vitamins and minerals, as well as protein. Many have trouble getting enough B12, Iron, and D in their diets. Those who do not plan carefully or use a protein shake have problems getting adequate amounts of protein. Additionally, there are some who are 'vegetarian' that exist on a diet of donuts, potato chips, and other junk food. That is not healthy and is not being a vegetarian. That is being a junk-aholic.

Not true. We produce our own vitamin D in our bodies, through exposure to sunlight. It isn't something we require in our diet.

fteale

My apologies to anyone who missed this thread when it disappeared yesterday. I was up to my neck in moderation requests and did not have time to purge the violations and borderline-violations from the thread, so I took the extreme shortcut of simply removing it. Clearly it was missed, and I've restored it this morning after finding the time to edit as necessary.

Sorry for the bait-and-switch routine. Definitely not up to my normal standards of moderation.

Happy New Year,
Steven
MyFitnessPal Staff

Thanks for returning it. I only wish you had removed the disgusting raw meat picture while editing! It turns my stomach every time I flick through the thread.

savage22hp

Cons - Requires careful planning to get adequate vitamins and minerals, as well as protein. Many have trouble getting enough B12, Iron, and D in their diets. Those who do not plan carefully or use a protein shake have problems getting adequate amounts of protein. Additionally, there are some who are 'vegetarian' that exist on a diet of donuts, potato chips, and other junk food. That is not healthy and is not being a vegetarian. That is being a junk-aholic.

Not true. We produce our own vitamin D in our bodies, through exposure to sunlight. It isn't something we require in our diet.

Tell that to all those who have low vitamin D as determined by blood test .

fteale

Cons - Requires careful planning to get adequate vitamins and minerals, as well as protein. Many have trouble getting enough B12, Iron, and D in their diets. Those who do not plan carefully or use a protein shake have problems getting adequate amounts of protein. Additionally, there are some who are 'vegetarian' that exist on a diet of donuts, potato chips, and other junk food. That is not healthy and is not being a vegetarian. That is being a junk-aholic.

Not true. We produce our own vitamin D in our bodies, through exposure to sunlight. It isn't something we require in our diet.

Tell that to all those who have low vitamin D as determined by blood test .

People with low vitamin D levels are those who have too little sun exposure. It is a major issue amongst Muslim women, for instance, as they have almost no exposure to daylight wearing a hijab. We need a certain amount of fat in our diet to produce vitamin D. Generally the best sources are butter and whole grains. But we synthesise vitamin D ourselves. Unlike vitamin C, which along with guinea pigs and fruit bats (note, frugivore species!) we are alone in the animal kingdom in NOT being able to produce ourselves.

_VoV

My apologies to anyone who missed this thread when it disappeared yesterday. I was up to my neck in moderation requests and did not have time to purge the violations and borderline-violations from the thread, so I took the extreme shortcut of simply removing it. Clearly it was missed, and I've restored it this morning after finding the time to edit as necessary.

Sorry for the bait-and-switch routine. Definitely not up to my normal standards of moderation.

Happy New Year,
Steven
MyFitnessPal Staff

I do think that picture of the very rare steak is unnecessary, and perhaps intended to taunt and incite. But, it does neither to me. Words are far more powerful than pictures, in my opinion. These pictures are just silly.

Thanks for returning it. I only wish you had removed the disgusting raw meat picture while editing! It turns my stomach every time I flick through the thread.

_VoV

My apologies to anyone who missed this thread when it disappeared yesterday. I was up to my neck in moderation requests and did not have time to purge the violations and borderline-violations from the thread, so I took the extreme shortcut of simply removing it. Clearly it was missed, and I've restored it this morning after finding the time to edit as necessary.

Sorry for the bait-and-switch routine. Definitely not up to my normal standards of moderation.

Happy New Year,
Steven
MyFitnessPal Staff

I do think that picture of the very rare steak is unnecessary, and perhaps intended to taunt and incite. But, it does neither to me. Words are far more powerful than pictures, in my opinion. These pictures are just silly.

Thanks for returning it. I only wish you had removed the disgusting raw meat picture while editing! It turns my stomach every time I flick through the thread.

I somehow messed up that last edit job. Just to say again: words are more powerful than pictures here to me. Since I have never eaten steak my whole life, seeing that doesn't convince me I'm missing anything. I just feel a little sad when people feel they need to communicate with pictures.

rml_16

I rest my case.

OK, so the problem for me is that I see that and all I can think of is the cow that died to make it.

I used to LOVE my steak, but guilt has gotten the better of me. You can eat it all you want, though. Even in front of me. :-) I can live vicaroiously.

ericabrothers

So you are blaming meat for people having high cholesterol? That doesn't exactly make a lot of sense to me. Especially after watching supersize me. Pretty sure there was a guy in there that ate the Big Mac's (or one of the burgers) every day and he was way healtheir that the guy doing the study. Their conclusion was eating the fries made the big difference. I for one LOVE eating meat and I don't believe it's had an adverse effect on me. Eating other junk; however, has. Teeth shape alone tell you that you were ment to consume some sort of meat.

DrG3n3

Beautiful steak! That's how we should eat them. I stopped reading since there weren't any more gorgeous pictures. But I have to agree with the omnivores. I personally think a combo of both meat and veg is good for me. But more power to however you want to eat. Just be healthy about it.

ADobs

I have been a pescatarian for about a year now. Before then, I ate primarily chicken only. Then I read the book Skinny ***** and although I did read it with an open mind and knowing that it promoted a vegan lifestyle, it opened my mind to many different things. I realized that I don’t “need” meat in my diet to survive as whatever nutrients you get from meat, you can find elsewhere. I did give up all meat at first but then noticed the changes in my hair, nails, body, health, etc. so instead of taking vitamins and going for tests, I decided to put fish back in my diet. My diet was never full of meats prior to making this decision so it was an easy transition. I never “crave” meat and never really have. I prefer veggie burgers even to fish.

The only downfall is both my parents (European) and my husband’s family eat meat like it’s going out of style and it’s almost like they don’t believe me that I don’t eat meat and they don’t really go out of their way to prepare something separate for me, which I don’t expect anyways. But just having to tell people I don’t eat meat, it gets annoying.
All in all, I’m pretty happy with my decision to eat this way.

Not sure what I will do when we decide to have a baby, as I can’t be eating that much salmon.

bcattoes

Everything can be expressed in simpler terms. An inability to simplify the material is more an indication of a lack of understanding of the subject.

As one of my lecturers in college always said; "if you can't explain something in another way, then you don't know what you are actually speaking about".

Most things can be expressed in simpler terms. There would, of course, come a point at which you can not simplify something more without losing the meaning. But some people just talk more technically than others, and not always simply to show that they can. I work with a gentlemen who is both an MD and a PhD. He always talks very technically, especially about medicine. Once I asked him "couldn't you just say <whatever> and he just laughed and said "I thought I just did". He's just used to speaking that way in lectures and when writing articles so it's natural for him. Then there are others that are just being arogant.

TeeJayBee_xo

The main reason I don't eat meat now is because I'm used to being vegetarian.
It initially started when I was a baby/toddler because I didn't like the texture or taste of the meat.
As I got older, by about the age of 4-6 my reason was because I was a bit of an animal fan.

I hated meat before I could even feed myself, my parents would try & feed me food with meat & I would simply push it back out of my mouth with my tounge & cry.
They then tried me on it again with finger food when I was a toddler & although I loved sausages, I wouldn't eat chicken etc. I then ate meat up until the age of 6 when I finally realised where sausages came from pigs (I'd figured the link between chicken meat & chicken animals pretty quickly)

Since then, I haven't eaten meat at allll. I still eat fish (well, some - I only eat cod, tuna & haddock) as a source of protein.
Admittedly my diet isn't great atm as I don't often eat much over 500 calories a day... but before this started, my meals would consist mainly of: vegetables, Quorn (or other meat-free alternatives like Tofu), lentils, fruit, eggs & fish, with potatoes or rice.

.....


SO BASICALLY, all this stuff about vegetarians not being healthy is absolute rubbish.
We don't ALL live off 'carb heavy diets' & lack protein, just as you meat-eaters don't ALL live off greasy Mcdonalds burgers & tons of bacon butties..

Bottom line is, there are SMART, HEALTHY vegetarians, just as there is SMART, HEALTHY meat-eaters. (:

THANKYOU & GOODNIGHT. xoxo

batalina

I'm a vegan, and will have been so for 3 years this March. I gave up animal products for ethical reasons -- mainly that I just didn't feel right with where it all came from. I could never seem to ignore the fact that i was eating somebody, ever since I was a child and I asked my mom where meat comes from, and she told me it was the muscles of animals.
I've been doing great since I gave all that stuff up. I've had friends who went vegan and didn't last long, and they blame the veganism, but I blame the fact that they were barely eating (or really trying to eat an improperly-planned Raw diet), and not taking supplments. I take supplements. People say you don't have to... but... I have to, as I've gotten low on B12 a couple times. Which, by the way, I don't understand why people see as a fatal flaw in veganism. Supplements exist, in general, to add to your diet whatever you're not getting otherwise, or need more of, and people of all diet types take them, so I don't see why "and then you have to take a B12 supplement" makes it a no-go for some people (if someone who could explain why they feel that way, feel free to!)
I do eat a lot of junk food. I love my sugar cereals and my french fries and my vegan cakes and cookies. But I also love my broccoli and my brown rice and my whole grains and beans and fruits and vegetables. I usually eat a TON of fiber, and not a lot of fat.
And all of that is my choice. And I try to respect your choices. Hell, if you're cooking bacon, I might even tell you it smells good! (I'm a vegan, not a Martian!). But scientific studies about this-that-and-the-other don't sway me. They can be so contradictory, and this doctor say this, while that doctor says that... I'll stick to making choices for myself based on what feels right to me.

DrG3n3

I'm a vegan, and will have been so for 3 years this March. I gave up animal products for ethical reasons -- mainly that I just didn't feel right with where it all came from. I could never seem to ignore the fact that i was eating somebody, ever since I was a child and I asked my mom where meat comes from, and she told me it was the muscles of animals.
I've been doing great since I gave all that stuff up. I've had friends who went vegan and didn't last long, and they blame the veganism, but I blame the fact that they were barely eating (or really trying to eat an improperly-planned Raw diet), and not taking supplments. I take supplements. People say you don't have to... but... I have to, as I've gotten low on B12 a couple times. Which, by the way, I don't understand why people see as a fatal flaw in veganism. Supplements exist, in general, to add to your diet whatever you're not getting otherwise, or need more of, and people of all diet types take them, so I don't see why "and then you have to take a B12 supplement" makes it a no-go for some people (if someone who could explain why they feel that way, feel free to!)
I do eat a lot of junk food. I love my sugar cereals and my french fries and my vegan cakes and cookies. But I also love my broccoli and my brown rice and my whole grains and beans and fruits and vegetables. I usually eat a TON of fiber, and not a lot of fat.
And all of that is my choice. And I try to respect your choices. Hell, if you're cooking bacon, I might even tell you it smells good! (I'm a vegan, not a Martian!). But scientific studies about this-that-and-the-other don't sway me. They can be so contradictory, and this doctor say this, while that doctor says that... I'll stick to making choices for myself based on what feels right to me.

I enjoyed that last paragraph. Totally agree. Do what's right for each of us