Veggies vs Meat

tidmutt

It was me that asked if they considered dogs carnivores, as they also eat plants and grains. Just as humans clearly evolved to eat plants, but can eat meat as well. If it's cooked. I don't believe we digest raw meat very well? That to me would be another factor in favour of us being biological herbivores. Carnivorous species digest meat better when it's raw. We mostly have to have it cooked.

Agreed, I've read that we don't digest raw meat as well as cooked. Cooking food allowed us to extract more energy and nutrition allowing bigger brains, smaller stomachs.

Saying that, stable isotope studies indicate that as far back as 3 million years our ancestors were eating a fair amount of animal flesh. Fossil record also shows evidence of animals skinned using stone age tools as far back as 2.5 million years. Don't have a reference for that right now.

VegesaurusRex

I said that vegetarianism is the most moral way to eat, but I did not say that all vegetarians are more moral than all non vegetarians. See my Hitler example. That is neither a contradiction nor a rationalization. Even though I am a vegetarian, I would have a hard time claiming to be moral if I sold cocaine to children or was a murderer for hire. I don't think that is so hard to understand. And yes, I do believe in saying what I think.

Excluding ANY other aspect of a person's life, do you feel morally superior to someone who eats meat?

First of all, you cannot "exclude any other aspects of a person's life." Again, see my Hitler example. Second , as I also said, it would be presumptuous to make any such claims, and I never would. Do I fee good about eating vegetarian? Yes, of course. Do I feel guilt-free eating vegetarian? Yes of course.

_binary_jester_

I said that vegetarianism is the most moral way to eat, but I did not say that all vegetarians are more moral than all non vegetarians. See my Hitler example. That is neither a contradiction nor a rationalization. Even though I am a vegetarian, I would have a hard time claiming to be moral if I sold cocaine to children or was a murderer for hire. I don't think that is so hard to understand. And yes, I do believe in saying what I think.

Excluding ANY other aspect of a person's life, do you feel morally superior to someone who eats meat?

First of all, you cannot "exclude any other aspects of a person's life." Again, see my Hitler example. Second , as I also said, it would be presumptuous to make any such claims, and I never would. Do I fee good about eating vegetarian? Yes, of course. Do I feel guilt-free eating vegetarian? Yes of course.

The only reason I ask for clarification is because many times I when I have talked to a vegan, I sense a air of superiority or smugness. No, not all, so I doubt this is coming from me. But your reasoning simply confirms what I observe.

AnarchoGen

Wow, so many pages... why don't you all stop arguing and go burn some calories. Go for a walk, lift some weights - GET OFF YOUR A$$E$ and GO DO SOMETHING .. I just burned 951 calories and I'm about to go burn some more. & if you go to www.veganbodybuilding.com - you will see that people get the same results whether or not they eat meat - it doesn't matter.

_binary_jester_

Wow, so many pages... why don't you all stop arguing and go burn some calories. Go for a walk, lift some weights - GET OFF YOUR A$$E$ and GO DO SOMETHING .. I just burned 951 calories and I'm about to go burn some more. & if you go to www.veganbodybuilding.com - you will see that people get the same results whether or not they eat meat - it doesn't matter.

But this is the internet. Someone is always wrong.

VegesaurusRex

It was me that asked if they considered dogs carnivores, as they also eat plants and grains. Just as humans clearly evolved to eat plants, but can eat meat as well. If it's cooked. I don't believe we digest raw meat very well? That to me would be another factor in favour of us being biological herbivores. Carnivorous species digest meat better when it's raw. We mostly have to have it cooked.

Agreed, I've read that we don't digest raw meat as well as cooked. Cooking food allowed us to extract more energy and nutrition allowing bigger brains, smaller stomachs.

Saying that, stable isotope studies indicate that as far back as 3 million years our ancestors were eating a fair amount of animal flesh. Fossil record also shows evidence of animals skinned using stone age tools as far back as 2.5 million years. Don't have a reference for that right now.

The Australopithecines (A. anamensis, A. afarensis, A africanus, A. robustus, and A. Boisei) all had dentition that would indicate they were plant eaters, i.e., massive back teeth, jaws, and facial and cranial structures, suggesting a diet demanding excessive grinding and powerful crushing. The timeline for Australopithecines is to about one million years ago.Homo also had robust dentition. Again, when the Australoithecines or Homo could scavange a kill, I am sure they ate meat. Also, creatures such as worms were probably also on the diet. I would resist any claim that our ancestors, prior to Anatomically Modern Humans, approximately 150,000 years ago had a diet consisting largely of meat.

fteale

You may or may not know that Hitler was a vegetarian (for health, not ethical reasons), and he was obviously far from moral.

MYTH! There are letters he wrote talking about how sausages were his favourite food. I have no idea where the myth comes from, but myth indeed it is. He wasn't teetotal either.

VegesaurusRex

You may or may not know that Hitler was a vegetarian (for health, not ethical reasons), and he was obviously far from moral.

MYTH! There are letters he wrote talking about how sausages were his favourite food. I have no idea where the myth comes from, but myth indeed it is. He wasn't teetotal either.

I saw a documentary on him which said , as you said that he loved meat, particularly pheasant, but that he had some severe gastro-intestinal anomalies that made him violently ill when he ate meat. So, let's just say that for an evil SOB he ate a lot of veggies.

tidmutt

Wow, so many pages... why don't you all stop arguing and go burn some calories. Go for a walk, lift some weights - GET OFF YOUR A$$E$ and GO DO SOMETHING .. I just burned 951 calories and I'm about to go burn some more. & if you go to www.veganbodybuilding.com - you will see that people get the same results whether or not they eat meat - it doesn't matter.

Sometimes we need to exercise our muscles and other times our brains. You should try the later every now and then. JK!

tidmutt

It was me that asked if they considered dogs carnivores, as they also eat plants and grains. Just as humans clearly evolved to eat plants, but can eat meat as well. If it's cooked. I don't believe we digest raw meat very well? That to me would be another factor in favour of us being biological herbivores. Carnivorous species digest meat better when it's raw. We mostly have to have it cooked.

Agreed, I've read that we don't digest raw meat as well as cooked. Cooking food allowed us to extract more energy and nutrition allowing bigger brains, smaller stomachs.

Saying that, stable isotope studies indicate that as far back as 3 million years our ancestors were eating a fair amount of animal flesh. Fossil record also shows evidence of animals skinned using stone age tools as far back as 2.5 million years. Don't have a reference for that right now.

The Australopithecines (A. anamensis, A. afarensis, A africanus, A. robustus, and A. Boisei) all had dentition that would indicate they were plant eaters, i.e., massive back teeth, jaws, and facial and cranial structures, suggesting a diet demanding excessive grinding and powerful crushing. The timeline for Australopithecines is to about one million years ago.Homo also had robust dentition. Again, when the Australoithecines or Homo could scavange a kill, I am sure they ate meat. Also, creatures such as worms were probably also on the diet. I would resist any claim that our ancestors, prior to Anatomically Modern Humans, approximately 150,000 years ago had a diet consisting largely of meat.

So I remembered where I saw those claims and found the discussion paper. It's a debate between Loren Cordain and Campbell (how appropriate). Here is a page that hosts the PDF containing the debate (you can find it around the web by googling for it as well):

http://crossfitbirmingham.ning.com/forum/topics/the-protein-debate-loren

Oddly, Campbell makes almost no citations. Cordain's citation list is huge. Just saying.

tidmutt

Wow, so many pages... why don't you all stop arguing and go burn some calories. Go for a walk, lift some weights - GET OFF YOUR A$$E$ and GO DO SOMETHING .. I just burned 951 calories and I'm about to go burn some more. & if you go to www.veganbodybuilding.com - you will see that people get the same results whether or not they eat meat - it doesn't matter.

But this is the internet. Someone is always wrong.

Yeah, so much to do...

infamousmk

Ten pages and we're still actually debating the original topic? SMH .... If my friends were here, this thread would actually be full of "fun and games".

ilookthetype

Ten pages and we're still actually debating the original topic? SMH .... If my friends were here, this thread would actually be full of "fun and games".

Agreed. Let's go get some meat. Polish or Italian sausage for you, dear?

fteale

Ten pages and we're still actually debating the original topic? SMH .... If my friends were here, this thread would actually be full of "fun and games".

Agreed. Let's go get some meat. Polish or Italian sausage for you, dear?

fnarr fnarr

infamousmk

Ten pages and we're still actually debating the original topic? SMH .... If my friends were here, this thread would actually be full of "fun and games".

Agreed. Let's go get some meat. Polish or Italian sausage for you, dear?

Polish! And then some Italian!

kbarry1127

Amen to that.

_VoV

Ten pages and we're still actually debating the original topic? SMH .... If my friends were here, this thread would actually be full of "fun and games".

Agreed. Let's go get some meat. Polish or Italian sausage for you, dear?

fnarr fnarr

No fears, fteale. The day is drawing nearer when animal husbandry--a most inefficient way to feed our population--will be unsustainable. The crops we now feed farm animals will go to feed people directly. In the process of this, meat will increase in price to such an extent that most people will find it unaffordable. Right now, in the US, government subsidies make meat and dairy possible for the average person to buy. Without those subsidies, the cost of these animal products would make them treats, not mainstays. Sorry, sausage eaters...you will need to find new amusements.

CakeFit21

Ten pages and we're still actually debating the original topic? SMH .... If my friends were here, this thread would actually be full of "fun and games".

Agreed. Let's go get some meat. Polish or Italian sausage for you, dear?

Polish! And then some Italian!

I'm not picky about what country my sausages are from.

_VoV

Ten pages and we're still actually debating the original topic? SMH .... If my friends were here, this thread would actually be full of "fun and games".

Agreed. Let's go get some meat. Polish or Italian sausage for you, dear?

Polish! And then some Italian!

I'm not picky about what country my sausages are from.

I'm glad I went through middle school so I understand this pun. It almost went over my head, but PHEW!!, I finally figured it out. Yay, me!

skywa

i think a balanced diet is best. you should be eating both meat and veggies. >~< thats how we've been eating for thousands of years. what makes one suddenly decide that cutting out a food group is a good idea? thats just obsurd.