Try this workout. Tell us what you think!

funkycamper

I do a similar workout for my warmup.

If you're doing that for a warm-up and then do a workout after, sorry, but you're not doing a Tabata.

Where in my post did I claim I was doing tabata? I do tabata with battle ropes.

"Argument from Incredulity"

Just because you struggle with 2 minutes of it doesn't mean that this guy can't use it as a warm up.

I've never tried it, but I've done a lot of very similar things, for longer time periods. I think most people who train in any sort of martial arts would look at this as only a small portion of the warm-ups they are currently doing.

That's not to say I don't think it would be hard work and have you out of breath, but to suggest that if you do it properly you shouldn't be able to exercise afterwards is a bit ignorant.

I think it's ignorant to comment on something that you apparently haven't studied. I have spent a fair amount of time reading as much as I can about the Tabata Protocol including the original research results because I find the concept fascinating.

Conditioned athletes at world-class levels are totally bushwhacked after doing a Tabata at the intensity it's designed for. People have been known to puke, or feel like it, from doing them at the intensity-level prescribed. One might be able to do more exercise after a recovery period which, of course, is going to vary a bit from individual-to-individual but not right afterwards. And there is no way that they can do further exercise at a level of intensity to really be worth the time. Sure, you might be able to do a decent walk. But you're not going to be able to lift heavy and meet the same weights/reps/sets as you would normally achieve. And you're not going to be able to go on an hour run.

This isn't my opinion. It's based on the studies.

I'd genuinely like to see these studies. Do you have links? Particularly interested in length of exercises and number of sets/reps.

Incidentally a friend of mine who I was chatting with about the Tabata protocol yesterday who trains in Karate agreed that his standard training included something very similar to this and that it only formed a small part of his training. With no rest period either - rest=running on the spot while your partner does his/her 10 seconds. This for 4 sets of each exercise consisting of situps, squat thrusts, Pressups and Burpees.

Unfortunately, you can only read the full studies if you have a PubMed subscription. Here are the abstracts:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8897392
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9139179
When I was visiting my daughter at her college, I spent some time in the university library and read the studies in the reference center there. I have to admit that I skimmed, focusing on the intro and conclusions, because most of it was too scientific for my non-scientific brain. But this will give you the jist.

This is one of the better explanations I have found online. http://www.cbass.com/SEARCHOF.HTM
Not real detailed but gives you a bit more info.

Please note that Dr. Tabata is quoted as saying "This protocol [was] invented to stress the cardiovascular systems of top Japanese [speed] skaters who got medals in the Olympic games. Therefore, the protocol is very tough. The subjects lay down on the floor after the training."

I still contend, based on my research, that if someone is really doing a full-on, balls-out, Tabata Protocol session, that they will not have the capacity to do a full, intense exercise session afterwards. After a recovery period, that will probably vary based on someone's level of fitness, they can probably do some exercising of some sort but, if weight lifting, their weight/reps/sets is going to be impacted or, if doing cardio, I'm betting that they won't last as long or go as fast. However, I suspect that if they do some kind of replenishing of glycogen stores, i.e. protein shake or a healthy snack during their rest period, they will regain a bit more ability to exercise at closer to their normal levels. But, done at the intensity the protocol calls for, it should wipe out glycogen stores to the point where intense exercise is not possible due to glycogen depletion alone.

Anyway...that's my take on it. I just think those who are exercising fully as normal as some are claiming, that they are really doing a good HIIT session, not Tabata.

chrishgt4

I do a similar workout for my warmup.

If you're doing that for a warm-up and then do a workout after, sorry, but you're not doing a Tabata.

Where in my post did I claim I was doing tabata? I do tabata with battle ropes.

"Argument from Incredulity"

Just because you struggle with 2 minutes of it doesn't mean that this guy can't use it as a warm up.

I've never tried it, but I've done a lot of very similar things, for longer time periods. I think most people who train in any sort of martial arts would look at this as only a small portion of the warm-ups they are currently doing.

That's not to say I don't think it would be hard work and have you out of breath, but to suggest that if you do it properly you shouldn't be able to exercise afterwards is a bit ignorant.

I think it's ignorant to comment on something that you apparently haven't studied. I have spent a fair amount of time reading as much as I can about the Tabata Protocol including the original research results because I find the concept fascinating.

Conditioned athletes at world-class levels are totally bushwhacked after doing a Tabata at the intensity it's designed for. People have been known to puke, or feel like it, from doing them at the intensity-level prescribed. One might be able to do more exercise after a recovery period which, of course, is going to vary a bit from individual-to-individual but not right afterwards. And there is no way that they can do further exercise at a level of intensity to really be worth the time. Sure, you might be able to do a decent walk. But you're not going to be able to lift heavy and meet the same weights/reps/sets as you would normally achieve. And you're not going to be able to go on an hour run.

This isn't my opinion. It's based on the studies.

I'd genuinely like to see these studies. Do you have links? Particularly interested in length of exercises and number of sets/reps.

Incidentally a friend of mine who I was chatting with about the Tabata protocol yesterday who trains in Karate agreed that his standard training included something very similar to this and that it only formed a small part of his training. With no rest period either - rest=running on the spot while your partner does his/her 10 seconds. This for 4 sets of each exercise consisting of situps, squat thrusts, Pressups and Burpees.

Unfortunately, you can only read the full studies if you have a PubMed subscription. Here are the abstracts:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8897392
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9139179
When I was visiting my daughter at her college, I spent some time in the university library and read the studies in the reference center there. I have to admit that I skimmed, focusing on the intro and conclusions, because most of it was too scientific for my non-scientific brain. But this will give you the jist.

This is one of the better explanations I have found online. http://www.cbass.com/SEARCHOF.HTM
Not real detailed but gives you a bit more info.

Please note that Dr. Tabata is quoted as saying "This protocol [was] invented to stress the cardiovascular systems of top Japanese [speed] skaters who got medals in the Olympic games. Therefore, the protocol is very tough. The subjects lay down on the floor after the training."

I still contend, based on my research, that if someone is really doing a full-on, balls-out, Tabata Protocol session, that they will not have the capacity to do a full, intense exercise session afterwards. After a recovery period, that will probably vary based on someone's level of fitness, they can probably do some exercising of some sort but, if weight lifting, their weight/reps/sets is going to be impacted or, if doing cardio, I'm betting that they won't last as long or go as fast. However, I suspect that if they do some kind of replenishing of glycogen stores, i.e. protein shake or a healthy snack during their rest period, they will regain a bit more ability to exercise at closer to their normal levels. But, done at the intensity the protocol calls for, it should wipe out glycogen stores to the point where intense exercise is not possible due to glycogen depletion alone.

Anyway...that's my take on it. I just think those who are exercising fully as normal as some are claiming, that they are really doing a good HIIT session, not Tabata.

You may be right - since I've never actually done, only read (and only since this thread) about Tabata, I can't say with total conviction, it just sounds very similar. Though Tabata does just sound like an extreme HIIT to me.

I'll have a read over those thank you!

aelarek

Bump.

ArroganceInStep

Unfortunately, you can only read the full studies if you have a PubMed subscription. Here are the abstracts:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8897392
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9139179
When I was visiting my daughter at her college, I spent some time in the university library and read the studies in the reference center there. I have to admit that I skimmed, focusing on the intro and conclusions, because most of it was too scientific for my non-scientific brain. But this will give you the jist.

This is one of the better explanations I have found online. http://www.cbass.com/SEARCHOF.HTM
Not real detailed but gives you a bit more info.

Please note that Dr. Tabata is quoted as saying "This protocol [was] invented to stress the cardiovascular systems of top Japanese [speed] skaters who got medals in the Olympic games. Therefore, the protocol is very tough. The subjects lay down on the floor after the training."

I still contend, based on my research, that if someone is really doing a full-on, balls-out, Tabata Protocol session, that they will not have the capacity to do a full, intense exercise session afterwards. After a recovery period, that will probably vary based on someone's level of fitness, they can probably do some exercising of some sort but, if weight lifting, their weight/reps/sets is going to be impacted or, if doing cardio, I'm betting that they won't last as long or go as fast. However, I suspect that if they do some kind of replenishing of glycogen stores, i.e. protein shake or a healthy snack during their rest period, they will regain a bit more ability to exercise at closer to their normal levels. But, done at the intensity the protocol calls for, it should wipe out glycogen stores to the point where intense exercise is not possible due to glycogen depletion alone.

Anyway...that's my take on it. I just think those who are exercising fully as normal as some are claiming, that they are really doing a good HIIT session, not Tabata.

My understanding (and I could be wrong) was that 'Tabata training' was just a specific implementation of HIIT. Like most things, you get out of it what you put in, and while elite athletes may be able to maintain a higher level of intensity throughout the 4 minute time-frame, those who are not would still be doing 'Tabata'. I think it's a difference of semantics, if you have to sustain 170% or greater of your VO2max as in the first study, then you are definitely right that not many people can do Tabata.

I STILL maintain, however, that there is substantial benefit to be had from training when past the state of exhaustion. If you look at the vast majority of martial training, they build foundations on that philosophy. They may not all do Tabata, but I guarantee you a boxer or wrestler or muay thai fighter or MMA fighter will be pushed to that degree of exhaustion and keep going. I am not in the physical shape to maintain 170% V02max for a full Tabata session, but I routinely do conditioning until I can barely stand up and then spar or grapple. I think if I can defend myself when I'm EXHAUSTED, I'll be better equipped to defend myself in a live fight, for as long as I need to. If your contention is that most people are incapable of doing Tabata I accept that, as I accept the fact that doing 'true Tabata' from your definition immediately before a heavy lifting regimen would be dangerous, and lastly if you think that an athlete that completes a full Tabata session and then does something else would risk hypoglycemia I would accept that as a stance (though I'd probably want to see some kind of proof of such). Outside of those three things though, I cannot agree with the concept that after completing 'true Tabata' other exercise is made pointless because your body is exhausted.

funkycamper

I do a similar workout for my warmup.

If you're doing that for a warm-up and then do a workout after, sorry, but you're not doing a Tabata.

Where in my post did I claim I was doing tabata? I do tabata with battle ropes.

"Argument from Incredulity"

Just because you struggle with 2 minutes of it doesn't mean that this guy can't use it as a warm up.

I've never tried it, but I've done a lot of very similar things, for longer time periods. I think most people who train in any sort of martial arts would look at this as only a small portion of the warm-ups they are currently doing.

That's not to say I don't think it would be hard work and have you out of breath, but to suggest that if you do it properly you shouldn't be able to exercise afterwards is a bit ignorant.

I think it's ignorant to comment on something that you apparently haven't studied. I have spent a fair amount of time reading as much as I can about the Tabata Protocol including the original research results because I find the concept fascinating.

Conditioned athletes at world-class levels are totally bushwhacked after doing a Tabata at the intensity it's designed for. People have been known to puke, or feel like it, from doing them at the intensity-level prescribed. One might be able to do more exercise after a recovery period which, of course, is going to vary a bit from individual-to-individual but not right afterwards. And there is no way that they can do further exercise at a level of intensity to really be worth the time. Sure, you might be able to do a decent walk. But you're not going to be able to lift heavy and meet the same weights/reps/sets as you would normally achieve. And you're not going to be able to go on an hour run.

This isn't my opinion. It's based on the studies.

I'd genuinely like to see these studies. Do you have links? Particularly interested in length of exercises and number of sets/reps.

Incidentally a friend of mine who I was chatting with about the Tabata protocol yesterday who trains in Karate agreed that his standard training included something very similar to this and that it only formed a small part of his training. With no rest period either - rest=running on the spot while your partner does his/her 10 seconds. This for 4 sets of each exercise consisting of situps, squat thrusts, Pressups and Burpees.

Unfortunately, you can only read the full studies if you have a PubMed subscription. Here are the abstracts:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8897392
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9139179
When I was visiting my daughter at her college, I spent some time in the university library and read the studies in the reference center there. I have to admit that I skimmed, focusing on the intro and conclusions, because most of it was too scientific for my non-scientific brain. But this will give you the jist.

This is one of the better explanations I have found online. http://www.cbass.com/SEARCHOF.HTM
Not real detailed but gives you a bit more info.

Please note that Dr. Tabata is quoted as saying "This protocol [was] invented to stress the cardiovascular systems of top Japanese [speed] skaters who got medals in the Olympic games. Therefore, the protocol is very tough. The subjects lay down on the floor after the training."

I still contend, based on my research, that if someone is really doing a full-on, balls-out, Tabata Protocol session, that they will not have the capacity to do a full, intense exercise session afterwards. After a recovery period, that will probably vary based on someone's level of fitness, they can probably do some exercising of some sort but, if weight lifting, their weight/reps/sets is going to be impacted or, if doing cardio, I'm betting that they won't last as long or go as fast. However, I suspect that if they do some kind of replenishing of glycogen stores, i.e. protein shake or a healthy snack during their rest period, they will regain a bit more ability to exercise at closer to their normal levels. But, done at the intensity the protocol calls for, it should wipe out glycogen stores to the point where intense exercise is not possible due to glycogen depletion alone.

Anyway...that's my take on it. I just think those who are exercising fully as normal as some are claiming, that they are really doing a good HIIT session, not Tabata.

You may be right - since I've never actually done, only read (and only since this thread) about Tabata, I can't say with total conviction, it just sounds very similar. Though Tabata does just sound like an extreme HIIT to me.

I'll have a read over those thank you!

Yes, you could definitely say that Tabata is an extreme HIIT. Although, I'd say it's an extremely extreme HIIT. :laugh: Most of us really can't do it. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try it once in awhile at the most intense level we can muster. When I do it, it's either because I just can't fit in a workout that day or because I want to test myself to see how close I can get to doing it. Like, can I last longer than previous tries? Can I do each intense session more intensely than I did before? I don't fool myself that I'm actually doing a full Tabata as designed because I know I'm not reaching those levels but I'm still definitely challenging myself and I think it's a good way to test my fitness progress.

funkycamper

Unfortunately, you can only read the full studies if you have a PubMed subscription. Here are the abstracts:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8897392
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9139179
When I was visiting my daughter at her college, I spent some time in the university library and read the studies in the reference center there. I have to admit that I skimmed, focusing on the intro and conclusions, because most of it was too scientific for my non-scientific brain. But this will give you the jist.

This is one of the better explanations I have found online. http://www.cbass.com/SEARCHOF.HTM
Not real detailed but gives you a bit more info.

Please note that Dr. Tabata is quoted as saying "This protocol [was] invented to stress the cardiovascular systems of top Japanese [speed] skaters who got medals in the Olympic games. Therefore, the protocol is very tough. The subjects lay down on the floor after the training."

I still contend, based on my research, that if someone is really doing a full-on, balls-out, Tabata Protocol session, that they will not have the capacity to do a full, intense exercise session afterwards. After a recovery period, that will probably vary based on someone's level of fitness, they can probably do some exercising of some sort but, if weight lifting, their weight/reps/sets is going to be impacted or, if doing cardio, I'm betting that they won't last as long or go as fast. However, I suspect that if they do some kind of replenishing of glycogen stores, i.e. protein shake or a healthy snack during their rest period, they will regain a bit more ability to exercise at closer to their normal levels. But, done at the intensity the protocol calls for, it should wipe out glycogen stores to the point where intense exercise is not possible due to glycogen depletion alone.

Anyway...that's my take on it. I just think those who are exercising fully as normal as some are claiming, that they are really doing a good HIIT session, not Tabata.

My understanding (and I could be wrong) was that 'Tabata training' was just a specific implementation of HIIT. Like most things, you get out of it what you put in, and while elite athletes may be able to maintain a higher level of intensity throughout the 4 minute time-frame, those who are not would still be doing 'Tabata'. I think it's a difference of semantics, if you have to sustain 170% or greater of your VO2max as in the first study, then you are definitely right that not many people can do Tabata.

I STILL maintain, however, that there is substantial benefit to be had from training when past the state of exhaustion. If you look at the vast majority of martial training, they build foundations on that philosophy. They may not all do Tabata, but I guarantee you a boxer or wrestler or muay thai fighter or MMA fighter will be pushed to that degree of exhaustion and keep going. I am not in the physical shape to maintain 170% V02max for a full Tabata session, but I routinely do conditioning until I can barely stand up and then spar or grapple. I think if I can defend myself when I'm EXHAUSTED, I'll be better equipped to defend myself in a live fight, for as long as I need to. If your contention is that most people are incapable of doing Tabata I accept that, as I accept the fact that doing 'true Tabata' from your definition immediately before a heavy lifting regimen would be dangerous, and lastly if you think that an athlete that completes a full Tabata session and then does something else would risk hypoglycemia I would accept that as a stance (though I'd probably want to see some kind of proof of such). Outside of those three things though, I cannot agree with the concept that after completing 'true Tabata' other exercise is made pointless because your body is exhausted.

I don't really disagree with anything you've said. I think pushing yourself to and then through exhaustion while exercising is a great way to increase your fitness. And, of course, the more fit you are, the more often you can do that and recover to do it the next day. Some of us haven't yet achieved a level of fitness to do it consistently but it's a great goal.

As I said previously, I doubt a lifter could lift at their normal levels after doing something as intense as a Tabata (or as close to it as they can get). And there is a lot of evidence out there that this is just plain inconsistent with the goal of building/retaining muscle. That's why many people with a lot more expertise than I have state that weight training and cardio should be done on different days or, if you do cardio on weight training days, at least do it after the weight training and keep it more minimal.

However, if you're working to build both muscle and cardiovascular endurance, there's no reason to not do exactly what you're saying, do an intensive HIIT session and combine it with other prolonged cardio. In fact, go back and forth a bit between the two. Sometimes I do a HIIT session, then do some regular cardio for awhile, and then do another HIIT session to tap myself out. An example of this might be going to the track, doing a short warm-up walk/jog, then doing sprints for 10-15 minutes, alternating with walking to bring my heart rate down, then doing a short run (15-20 minutes), then doing grinders (running up the stairs in the stadium, then walking down) and repeating until I'm so wiped out I just can't climb one more stair, then do a cooling down walk for awhile until my heart rate settles down.

Note, for those who know me, I do have trouble with prolonged running for some reason so, when I say I go for a short 15-20 minute run, it's still more of a jog/walk at this point. I can do elliptical or biking for hours....well, maybe not hours but for a long time, definitely more than an hour....without fatigue, even if I do some HIIT during them but, for some reason, my running sucks. Working on it.

And, like I responded in the above-post to another poster, if you're interested, work on trying to do a real Tabata according to the protocol. I try it once in awhile as a way to test my fitness level and gauge my progress. As time goes on, I'm getting a bit closer to doing a Tabata but I'm still a long way away from doing it at the level called for in the protocol. But it's a fun goal to strive for. I'm probably too old to ever achieve it to the letter of the protocol but, heck, why not test myself once in awhile and see how close I can get? Since you sound both younger and a lot more fit than I am, you might get there. If you do, I'd love to hear how it effects your ability to keep on working out immediately afterwards.

Interesting discussion.