lifting weights

taso42

Since we're on a forum I'll add to this that if you're lifting more than once a week you're wasting your time. And if you're doing more than one set you're not working to true failure. High Intensity Training works and I think everyone should put their lifting routines away for two weeks, read the book by Dr. Ellington Darden called "The New High Intensity Training" and experience your true genetic potential in less time. Doubt this? Ever see a lion doing push-ups? A cheeta jogging? A gorilla doing pull-ups? Fact is most lifting is over done and sleep is lacking. Enjoy the read...otherwise, enjoy your time in the gym.

No, but I've never seen them sit at a desk punching at keys on a keyboard all day either. If I were still a wild thing in my natural habitat I wouldn't have to exercise because my lifestyle would show on my body, but as it stands I have to earn money which means sitting on my *kitten* all day, so I have 1 hour per day to get in what my ancestors would do to survive. The arguement goes both ways and I don't think it holds much water.

Our body only builds slightly more muscle than it thinks we need for the next of life's challenges. But it can't fully recouperate if you're unwilling/unable to give it the week off it needs for a full recovery. Much of what our ancestors did in a day required little exertion...tending to children, livestock/farming (fast forward a few thousand years), walking, stalking the next kill, etc. Relying upon calorie dense foods from a kill (mammoth, buffalo, etc.), meant hunts didn't happen every day, and not every hunt was successful. Which is why our bodies got so damn good at storing food on our bodies...when we had extras it KEPT it. Which is why we need MFP to eat ONLY what we truly need in order to get back to a healthy weight.

So champion body builders and powerlifters are doing it wrong then?

jjblogs

Hmmm...I think we need a body comparison here boys....Let's see all those muscles and judge who's doing it *right*...;P

19danno77

Like I suggested: read the book and give it a try. Works for me and ANYONE else I've ever talked to who has tried it. It worked for Duke, the Army, the many who've trained under this regimen including Casey Vitore...I'm busy. I'm adding reps and/or weight to every exercise, every week based on the notion we're not giving muscles adequate time to recouperate. Nature hedges her bets...if you break your body down with failure sets your body builds back because it FAILED...not because it got close. Once you fail there's no point in returning to that exercise...move on to the next muscle group. Then LEAVE the gym and go about your life. There's no reason to spend countless hours in a gym unless you just want to take in the sights/smells and strut your stuff.

Trust me when I say I've researched this (along with other like Dogg Crap training) before you were 5 years old. Even guys like Dorian Yates who believe in high intensity exercise do more than one set.

http://www.trulyhuge.com/dorian_yates_workout.html


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There's good anecdotal evidence supporting the theory behind HIT by Nassim Taleb...he coined the term antifragility. It's an alternative...a viable one at that. It's certainly not the only one out there. But it's one of the only ones asking NOT to send the founder a check. And for most of our musclar needs, it's more than enough development. I've tried other programs but this one fits my life now...and takes away one of the most common excuses: T-I-M-E.

mandasimba

Since we're on a forum I'll add to this that if you're lifting more than once a week you're wasting your time. And if you're doing more than one set you're not working to true failure. High Intensity Training works and I think everyone should put their lifting routines away for two weeks, read the book by Dr. Ellington Darden called "The New High Intensity Training" and experience your true genetic potential in less time. Doubt this? Ever see a lion doing push-ups? A cheeta jogging? A gorilla doing pull-ups? Fact is most lifting is over done and sleep is lacking. Enjoy the read...otherwise, enjoy your time in the gym.

What about a monkey doing a push up?

http://youtu.be/W_-BVg0VIyo

ninerbuff

Our body only builds slightly more muscle than it thinks we need for the next of life's challenges. But it can't fully recouperate if you're unwilling/unable to give it the week off it needs for a full recovery. Much of what our ancestors did in a day required little exertion...tending to children, livestock/farming (fast forward a few thousand years), walking, stalking the next kill, etc. Relying upon calorie dense foods from a kill (mammoth, buffalo, etc.), meant hunts didn't happen every day, and not every hunt was successful. Which is why our bodies got so damn good at storing food on our bodies...when we had extras it KEPT it. Which is why we need MFP to eat ONLY what we truly need in order to get back to a healthy weight.

Philosophies differ along with results since genetics do play a role. I currently train each body part once a week with high intensity to build and retain muscle with great results for the past 25 years. While I do believe a bout of "total" failure occasionally worked to increase my strength, I did uptake the Darden/Jones technique for 2 months back in the late 80's with very minor results with the exception of increased strength. Since my goal was to put on mass, this method didn't work for me. Traditional bodybuilding approach did.
So if your approach is to just keep your strength and/or increase it and get plenty of rest, then this may work for you. However, I would venture to say that most people here are set on improving their physiques.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

19danno77

So champion body builders and powerlifters are doing it wrong then?

HIT practioners would make this assertion...but then again the body chemistry of "champion" lifters and athlets are often chemically modified. It's an efficient, common-sense alternative...that's all I'm saying. In a world of gimicks for sale, this one is free, saves time and works for the people that are willing to give it a try. I haven't met a person for whom it has failed. I get cardio and strength in one quick workout, I'm making faster progress than ever, and my bulging lumbar disc (from my desk job!) and rotator cuff problems (from waterskiing and headfirst slide impacts in baseball) have NEVER been less apparent. I'm not also suggesting that this is how a champion bodybuilder should do it...they aren't on this list for the most part...this list if FILLED with people, like me, busy, tired, over-worked, out of money, but sick and tired of being overweight. MFP is free. HIT is free. The correlation is there so I thought some here might find the connection and give it a try...the book's been around. If you're willing to try a free app, I would hope you'd have a mind open enough to try something else your peers have found to work.

19danno77

Hmmm...I think we need a body comparison here boys....Let's see all those muscles and judge who's doing it *right*...;P

LOL! I've been bugging my wife to repeat my P90X before after series to include a shot of me post MFP...I've never been leaner. I was stronger in college but damage to my body since then will forever limit my shoulder/chest strength. When I get the pics I'll toss one up here. But since I P90X didn't focus on big numbers in weights, and HIT doesn't care none of my numbers will impress anyone. I'm pretty excited though to be 40 lbs lighter than post P90X weight, and I didn't have to spend a dime to get there...in fact, eating less costs less...so MFP has saved me loads of money--I will be forever grateful for their product. I preach MFP to those interested in weight loss, and HIT to those interested in sustainable, practical muscularity. No financial stake for either founder, nor me...I just want to see others succeed and feel as good about theirselves as I do today.

ninerbuff

HIT practioners would make this assertion...but then again the body chemistry of "champion" lifters and athlets are often chemically modified. It's an efficient, common-sense alternative...that's all I'm saying. In a world of gimicks for sale, this one is free, saves time and works for the people that are willing to give it a try. I haven't met a person for whom it has failed. I get cardio and strength in one quick workout, I'm making faster progress than ever, and my bulging lumbar disc (from my desk job!) and rotator cuff problems (from waterskiing and headfirst slide impacts in baseball) have NEVER been less apparent. I'm not also suggesting that this is how a champion bodybuilder should do it...they aren't on this list for the most part...this list if FILLED with people, like me, busy, tired, over-worked, out of money, but sick and tired of being overweight. MFP is free. HIT is free. The correlation is there so I thought some here might find the connection and give it a try...the book's been around. If you're willing to try a free app, I would hope you'd have a mind open enough to try something else your peers have found to work.

I will state that it is a time saver and can be efficient. However, everything comes with issues and safety here would be one. I don't believe in taking on any lifting exercise (especially at max weight) without a proper warmup.
Unless someone is well experienced in lifting correctly, this is NOT a program for a beginner since it would only take one exercise (squats or rows for example) to cause a major injury.
All programs have their place in exercise. I think people should choose a philosophy that they can do for life and can do safely.

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taso42

So champion body builders and powerlifters are doing it wrong then?

HIT practioners would make this assertion...but then again the body chemistry of "champion" lifters and athlets are often chemically modified. It's an efficient, common-sense alternative...that's all I'm saying. In a world of gimicks for sale, this one is free, saves time and works for the people that are willing to give it a try. I haven't met a person for whom it has failed. I get cardio and strength in one quick workout, I'm making faster progress than ever, and my bulging lumbar disc (from my desk job!) and rotator cuff problems (from waterskiing and headfirst slide impacts in baseball) have NEVER been less apparent. I'm not also suggesting that this is how a champion bodybuilder should do it...they aren't on this list for the most part...this list if FILLED with people, like me, busy, tired, over-worked, out of money, but sick and tired of being overweight. MFP is free. HIT is free. The correlation is there so I thought some here might find the connection and give it a try...the book's been around. If you're willing to try a free app, I would hope you'd have a mind open enough to try something else your peers have found to work.

I would take a look at it some time. But I have no reason to change what I'm doing. My goals may be different from yours. I am after building as much strength as possible and building a certain physique.

Your approach may be working for your goals, and that is fantastic. But I think this claim you made is just outright false:
"Since we're on a forum I'll add to this that if you're lifting more than once a week you're wasting your time."

I would not be progressing at the rate that I am, lifting once per week. If I felt that any aspect of what I do in regarding my health and fitness was a waste of time, I would change it immediately.

And I don't have to send anyone a check for this either.

ArroganceInStep

So champion body builders and powerlifters are doing it wrong then?

HIT practioners would make this assertion...but then again the body chemistry of "champion" lifters and athlets are often chemically modified. It's an efficient, common-sense alternative...that's all I'm saying. In a world of gimicks for sale, this one is free, saves time and works for the people that are willing to give it a try. I haven't met a person for whom it has failed. I get cardio and strength in one quick workout, I'm making faster progress than ever, and my bulging lumbar disc (from my desk job!) and rotator cuff problems (from waterskiing and headfirst slide impacts in baseball) have NEVER been less apparent. I'm not also suggesting that this is how a champion bodybuilder should do it...they aren't on this list for the most part...this list if FILLED with people, like me, busy, tired, over-worked, out of money, but sick and tired of being overweight. MFP is free. HIT is free. The correlation is there so I thought some here might find the connection and give it a try...the book's been around. If you're willing to try a free app, I would hope you'd have a mind open enough to try something else your peers have found to work.

With this clarification, congratulations on your success and I'm glad your routine is working for you.

jacksonpt

So champion body builders and powerlifters are doing it wrong then?

HIT practioners would make this assertion...but then again the body chemistry of "champion" lifters and athlets are often chemically modified. It's an efficient, common-sense alternative...that's all I'm saying. In a world of gimicks for sale, this one is free, saves time and works for the people that are willing to give it a try. I haven't met a person for whom it has failed. I get cardio and strength in one quick workout, I'm making faster progress than ever, and my bulging lumbar disc (from my desk job!) and rotator cuff problems (from waterskiing and headfirst slide impacts in baseball) have NEVER been less apparent. I'm not also suggesting that this is how a champion bodybuilder should do it...they aren't on this list for the most part...this list if FILLED with people, like me, busy, tired, over-worked, out of money, but sick and tired of being overweight. MFP is free. HIT is free. The correlation is there so I thought some here might find the connection and give it a try...the book's been around. If you're willing to try a free app, I would hope you'd have a mind open enough to try something else your peers have found to work.

A few things...

First, didn't you say earlier to "buy the book, give it a try"? Then it's not free.

Second, there are lots of effective, efficient routines out there. The thing that makes one better than another is not the specific routine, it's the dedication someone can give to it and how well it matches their goals. If you are so over worked and over stressed and tired and poor that all you can manage is 1 workout a week, and this works for you, then great. I'm happy that you found something that works and are making good progress. But that doesn't mean that all other routines are a "waste of time". There are several reasons why someone might prefer to workout multiple times per week.

Last, while I agree that some people (myself included, probably) over work and under rest their bodies, to say "if you're working out more than once a week you're wasting your time" is a bold and blanket statement that doesn't apply to all situations.

kgordon7

THIS

This is an FYI as I see this misconception all over the boards...

Just because you have weights in your hands doesn't mean you are lifting weights.

Lifting weights as a strength training exercise involves heavy weight and low reps. If you're doing more than 12-15 reps, it's a cardio exercise. If you can 10 reps fairly easily, you're not lifting heavy enough.

19danno77

I would take a look at it some time. But I have no reason to change what I'm doing. My goals may be different from yours. I am after building as much strength as possible and building a certain physique.

Your approach may be working for your goals, and that is fantastic. But I think this claim you made is just outright false:
"Since we're on a forum I'll add to this that if you're lifting more than once a week you're wasting your time."

I would not be progressing at the rate that I am, lifting once per week. If I felt that any aspect of what I do in regarding my health and fitness was a waste of time, I would change it immediately.

And I don't have to send anyone a check for this either.

But you just can't know 'til you try...but as you said, no need to try if you're happy with what you've been accomplishing...BTW congrats there! I knew my opening sentence would get me in trouble...which is why I phrased it the way I did. :laugh: It was to match the bold assertion by the OP that his way was right. It makes no sense to talk that way...there are many ways to meet our goals. It's awesome when we're able to do that...it's equally awesome that today we're able to quickly share our stories for others to evaluate. I've had a fragile body and was frequently dealing with injuries of one sort or another which is further reason I want to tout this philosophy...on weight machines you can very safely do failure sets, but this is where the "free" part ends unless you already have access to machines.

19danno77

A few things...

First, didn't you say earlier to "buy the book, give it a try"? Then it's not free.

Second, there are lots of effective, efficient routines out there. The thing that makes one better than another is not the specific routine, it's the dedication someone can give to it and how well it matches their goals. If you are so over worked and over stressed and tired and poor that all you can manage is 1 workout a week, and this works for you, then great. I'm happy that you found something that works and are making good progress. But that doesn't mean that all other routines are a "waste of time". There are several reasons why someone might prefer to workout multiple times per week.

Last, while I agree that some people (myself included, probably) over work and under rest their bodies, to say "if you're working out more than once a week you're wasting your time" is a bold and blanket statement that doesn't apply to all situations.

I also mentioned the library...anyone who's tried it can give you the deal on HIT in 5 minutes, and that's free. Google it...the jist can be had for free.

jacksonpt

I would take a look at it some time. But I have no reason to change what I'm doing. My goals may be different from yours. I am after building as much strength as possible and building a certain physique.

Your approach may be working for your goals, and that is fantastic. But I think this claim you made is just outright false:
"Since we're on a forum I'll add to this that if you're lifting more than once a week you're wasting your time."

I would not be progressing at the rate that I am, lifting once per week. If I felt that any aspect of what I do in regarding my health and fitness was a waste of time, I would change it immediately.

And I don't have to send anyone a check for this either.

But you just can't know 'til you try...but as you said, no need to try if you're happy with what you've been accomplishing...BTW congrats there! I knew my opening sentence would get me in trouble...which is why I phrased it the way I did. :laugh: It was to match the bold assertion by the OP that his way was right. It makes no sense to talk that way...there are many ways to meet our goals. It's awesome when we're able to do that...it's equally awesome that today we're able to quickly share our stories for others to evaluate. I've had a fragile body and was frequently dealing with injuries of one sort or another which is further reason I want to tout this philosophy...on weight machines you can very safely do failure sets, but this is where the "free" part ends unless you already have access to machines.

As the OP... I'll ask WTF are you talking about?

What bold assertion?

Maybe my point wasn't as clear as I thought it was, or maybe it gets lost on people for whom my post strikes a nerve? I never said anything was better than another, I merely said that strength training (i.e. training for strength gains) requires low weight and high reps. I'm never said cardio doesn't have it's place in getting healthy. Nor did I say high reps low weight was worthless.

19danno77

As the OP... I'll ask WTF are you talking about?

What bold assertion?

Maybe my point wasn't as clear as I thought it was, or maybe it gets lost on people for whom my post strikes a nerve? I never said anything was better than another, I merely said that strength training (i.e. training for strength gains) requires low weight and high reps. I'm never said cardio doesn't have it's place in getting healthy. Nor did I say high reps low weight was worthless.

No nerves struck...and I agree with your assertion regarding gains and reps. In general, a good strength workout should be a somewhat (if not outright) unpleasant but very rewarding experience, right?

Regarding the OP and what goaded me into chiming in at all follow below:
-Heavy is a relative term and can intimidate those who are insecure about the numbers and depends on the lifter's strength
-Strength is also a relative term and subject to a lifter's abilities and goals
->12-15 may not be optimal for strength gains but that doesn't make it cardio
-lifting heavy weights with minimal rest will maintain a cardio-like heart rate through the duration of the workout...these forms of exercise are not mutually exclusive

Gyms are filled with know-it-alls and that's part of the reason novices often wash out...they see in the mirror as some jerk judges their poor technique rather than offering assistance. Something in their hands and the fact that they are trying is better than nothing and can lead to transformational change. Beginners have to start somewhere, and often, to develop safe/proper technique, HEAVY weights aren't in their best interest. And with certain lift techniques (extreme range of motion, failure sets, etc.) the number on the weight isn't the goal...nor was the terminous number in the set. Strength can be achieved many ways.

taso42

@aydx0001 You said it yourself - strength is relative and heavy is relative. Everyone starts somewhere. At the very beginning, the focus is on making sure form is correct. Once form is worked out, then yes, one should lift heavy (relative to their capabilities), in order to become stronger (relative to their current strength).

If one wants to become "very strong" (i.e., squatting 1.5-2x bodyweight and then some), low reps heavy weight (and progressively increasing the weight) is the way to get there. Around 3 times a week.

If one wants to become "pretty fit", then there are many, many ways to skin that cat.

mbrou28

Bump!

TourThePast

Study after study show that challenging muscle with overload will yield better results compared to using lighter loads with higher repetitions.

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I agree.

What is your advice for people just starting out, overload straight away, or lighter weights with more reps to strengthen joints first?

Genuine question btw, only asked because one of the first responses on here was from someone saying "great to know, I'm starting out" and I wondered what your advice would be.

taso42

Study after study show that challenging muscle with overload will yield better results compared to using lighter loads with higher repetitions.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

I agree.

What is your advice for people just starting out, overload straight away, or lighter weights with more reps to strengthen joints first?

Genuine question btw, only asked because one of the first responses on here was from someone saying "great to know, I'm starting out" and I wondered what your advice would be.

[I'm not a certified personal trainer but....]

When starting out, the main emphasis should be on form, and getting familiar with the exercises. Many of us will have enough trouble just putting our bodies in the right position and developing the flexibility just to hold the bar in the right place, etc. At that point in the game, # of reps don't matter too much. Perhaps more reps are actually better at this stage, as this will give more practice to learning the motions. After a couple of weeks of just getting some basics of form down, the beginner can start one of these programs in earnest, at a pretty light weight (just the bar, say). And then gradually increase the loads each session or each week. This should give enough time for the the body to get comfortable with the motions before getting to really heavy weight.

For the exercises that are especially difficult to get the hang of, there is no shame in keeping the weight low and really learning the form before proceeding. Form is everything.

If it hurts, it's too heavy. If form suffers, it's too heavy. Otherwise, it's good.

ninerbuff

Study after study show that challenging muscle with overload will yield better results compared to using lighter loads with higher repetitions.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

I agree.

What is your advice for people just starting out, overload straight away, or lighter weights with more reps to strengthen joints first?

Genuine question btw, only asked because one of the first responses on here was from someone saying "great to know, I'm starting out" and I wondered what your advice would be.

[I'm not a certified personal trainer but....]

When starting out, the main emphasis should be on form, and getting familiar with the exercises. Many of us will have enough trouble just putting our bodies in the right position and developing the flexibility just to hold the bar in the right place, etc. At that point in the game, # of reps don't matter too much. Perhaps more reps are actually better at this stage, as this will give more practice to learning the motions. After a couple of weeks of just getting some basics of form down, the beginner can start one of these programs in earnest, at a pretty light weight (just the bar, say). And then gradually increase the loads each session or each week. This should give enough time for the the body to get comfortable with the motions before getting to really heavy weight.

For the exercises that are especially difficult to get the hang of, there is no shame in keeping the weight low and really learning the form before proceeding. Form is everything.

If it hurts, it's too heavy. If form suffers, it's too heavy. Otherwise, it's good.

Great reply Taso. With any new client, when I start out, it's form first and how to BREATHE correctly. Repetition will build habit so for about 2 weeks I have them do 10-12 reps so they can acclimate to the exercise and soreness and to get into habit of good form.
Progressively from there I increase weight and lower the reps.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

TourThePast

Study after study show that challenging muscle with overload will yield better results compared to using lighter loads with higher repetitions.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

I agree.

What is your advice for people just starting out, overload straight away, or lighter weights with more reps to strengthen joints first?

Genuine question btw, only asked because one of the first responses on here was from someone saying "great to know, I'm starting out" and I wondered what your advice would be.

[I'm not a certified personal trainer but....]

When starting out, the main emphasis should be on form, and getting familiar with the exercises.

For the exercises that are especially difficult to get the hang of, there is no shame in keeping the weight low and really learning the form before proceeding. Form is everything.

Thanks, that's my view too. I had a rather dodgy knee when I started my weight training, fortunately I had a clued up fitness instructor but it worried me to think of people right at the start of a new fitness regime trying to work their muscles "to failure" straight away.

Obviously that's the goal, but doing it on your first workout sounds like a recipe for disaster to me!