Broscience versus REAL SCIENCE

antoniosmooth

Until posting here in the forums beginning 2 - 3 weeks ago I had no idea I was following "broscience" for years. I began reading Muscle and Fitness in middle school, Men's Health and Men's Fitness 5 years ago. I played organized sports throughout middle school (basketball), high school (basketball, football, and racquetball), and most of my career in the Army (basketball and football).

The principles of nutrition I've been following (reading articles and studies in M&F and Men's Health) I've been following since I began weight training in high school. Such as....

1. Preworkout Whey Protein and Creatine
2. Post workout Whey Protein
3. Before going to bed Casein

Quite a few people here have informed me I've been following broscience and evidently I didn't even know it, (because of the articles I've been reading for years). Even the NBC Show the Biggest Loser follows the principle of Whey Protein after a workout to build muscle for weight loss.

Other than people "saying" those principles are broscience are there any reputable studies and research proving it is USELESS to follow the 3 "broscience" principles above?

The small amount of elementary research I've conducted last weekend basically says "NOBODY REALLY KNOWS" if it's broscience or not

I'm only asking because I'm trying to TRANSFORM my "frame".

tgzerozone

I do:

Pre-workout whey and glucose
During-workout whey and glucose
Post-workout whey and Glucose.

I' picked up 8 pounds of muscle in 8 weeks. Bro science or not, I don't give a crap.

AeolianHarp

Antonio, they aren't completely and absolutely useless but there is a hierarchy of sorts.

Here is a fantastic article that will help you better understand post-workout nutrition:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-growth-and-pos-workout-nutrition.html

The author is a mad genius and a well-respected individual within the fitness and nutrition world.

I do:

Pre-workout whey and glucose
During-workout whey and glucose
Post-workout whey and Glucose.

I' picked up 8 pounds of muscle in 8 weeks. Bro science or not, I don't give a crap.

Delusions! How grand!

Quickster34

1. Preworkout Whey Protein and Creatine
2. Post workout Whey Protein
3. Before going to bed Casein

thats not broscience thats just a pretty solid method to supplemnet your whole food protein sources, obviously this exact method will change depending on your goals but thats pretty much the foundation

tgzerozone

Antonio, they aren't completely and absolutely useless but there is a hierarchy of sorts.

Here is a fantastic article that will help you better understand post-workout nutrition:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-growth-and-pos-workout-nutrition.html

The author is a mad genius and a well-respected individual within the fitness and nutrition world.

I do:

Pre-workout whey and glucose
During-workout whey and glucose
Post-workout whey and Glucose.

I' picked up 8 pounds of muscle in 8 weeks. Bro science or not, I don't give a crap.

Delusions! How grand!

How so?

songbyrdsweet

I do the real (boring) science. This is basic sports nutrition and it's a pretty tried and true method that's been around for a LONNNG time.

tgzerozone

Antonio, they aren't completely and absolutely useless but there is a hierarchy of sorts.

Here is a fantastic article that will help you better understand post-workout nutrition:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-growth-and-pos-workout-nutrition.html

The author is a mad genius and a well-respected individual within the fitness and nutrition world.

I do:

Pre-workout whey and glucose
During-workout whey and glucose
Post-workout whey and Glucose.

I' picked up 8 pounds of muscle in 8 weeks. Bro science or not, I don't give a crap.

Delusions! How grand!

I call it simple maths.

Start lean body weight: 56 kg (123 lbs)
End lean body weight: 63 kg (138 lbs)

subtract 123 lbs from 138.6 pounds and you get 15.6 lbs

divide 15 by 8 and you get 1.8 pounds.

Minus the 800 grams just to be very conservative.

That gives you 15 pounds in 8 weeks and over a pound a week. I like my delusions.

songbyrdsweet

Antonio, they aren't completely and absolutely useless but there is a hierarchy of sorts.

Here is a fantastic article that will help you better understand post-workout nutrition:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-growth-and-pos-workout-nutrition.html

The author is a mad genius and a well-respected individual within the fitness and nutrition world.

I do:

Pre-workout whey and glucose
During-workout whey and glucose
Post-workout whey and Glucose.

I' picked up 8 pounds of muscle in 8 weeks. Bro science or not, I don't give a crap.

Delusions! How grand!

I call it simple maths.

Start lean body weight: 56 kg (123 lbs)
End lean body weight: 63 kg (138 lbs)

subtract 123 lbs from 138.6 pounds and you get 15.6 lbs

divide 15 by 8 and you get 1.8 pounds.

Minus the 800 grams just to be very conservative.

That gives you 15 pounds in 8 weeks and over a pound a week. I like my delusions.

That is pretty reasonable especially if you're an easy gainer, just starting out, just came off a cut, etc. Takes fewer calories to build a lb of muscle than to lose a lb of fat.

tgzerozone

Just starting out yes. 3500-4500 calories a day.

antoniosmooth

I do the real (boring) science. This is basic sports nutrition and it's a pretty tried and true method that's been around for a LONNNG time.

Real science is never boring although I admit I thought it was when I was young. The study you are working on involving probiotics sounds extremely interesting and I'd love to see your results here in the future.

I do:

Pre-workout whey and glucose
During-workout whey and glucose
Post-workout whey and Glucose.

I' picked up 8 pounds of muscle in 8 weeks. Bro science or not, I don't give a crap.

Can't deny those results!! All of the growth I've experienced is due to following a very similar principle. Now that I'm trying to lean out dramatically (my profile pic is summer of last year) I've dropped my protein "timing" since December.

songbyrdsweet

I do the real (boring) science. This is basic sports nutrition and it's a pretty tried and true method that's been around for a LONNNG time.

Real science is never boring although I admit I thought it was when I was young. The study you are working on involving probiotics sounds extremely interesting and I'd love to see your results here in the future.

I do:

Pre-workout whey and glucose
During-workout whey and glucose
Post-workout whey and Glucose.

I' picked up 8 pounds of muscle in 8 weeks. Bro science or not, I don't give a crap.

Can't deny those results!! All of the growth I've experienced is due to following a very similar principle. Now that I'm trying to lean out dramatically (my profile pic is summer of last year) I've dropped my protein "timing" since December.

I'm REALLY bored with it right now lol...writing my lit review as part of my doctorate...UGGGHHH. I have results but I can't say what probiotic I'm using :laugh:

tgzerozone

I do the real (boring) science. This is basic sports nutrition and it's a pretty tried and true method that's been around for a LONNNG time.

Real science is never boring although I admit I thought it was when I was young. The study you are working on involving probiotics sounds extremely interesting and I'd love to see your results here in the future.

I do:

Pre-workout whey and glucose
During-workout whey and glucose
Post-workout whey and Glucose.

I' picked up 8 pounds of muscle in 8 weeks. Bro science or not, I don't give a crap.

Can't deny those results!! All of the growth I've experienced is due to following a very similar principle. Now that I'm trying to lean out dramatically (my profile pic is summer of last year) I've dropped my protein "timing" since December.

You look good in your pic, I'd say whatever you are doing is obviously working for you. Stick with it.

AeolianHarp

Also, here's a great YouTube video where Ian delves deeper into post-workout myths:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqSNOKL5ZkA&feature=plcp&context=C4c8ebf0VDvjVQa1PpcFOxxYsF5LOmIVvKcbwZxZ9v_1_gXoR0Oco%3D

Worth the watch. It's long but bear with it and you'll learn a lot.

How so?

That you attribute your success to your pre-, peri-, and post-workout nutrition.

songbyrdsweet

Also, here's a great YouTube video where Ian delves deeper into post-workout myths:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqSNOKL5ZkA&feature=plcp&context=C4c8ebf0VDvjVQa1PpcFOxxYsF5LOmIVvKcbwZxZ9v_1_gXoR0Oco%3D

Worth the watch. It's long but bear with it and you'll learn a lot.

How so?

That you attribute your success to your pre-, peri-, and post-workout nutrition.

:huh: I'm pretty sure we can assume he was also lifting.

antoniosmooth

I'm REALLY bored with it right now lol...writing my lit review as part of my doctorate...UGGGHHH. I have results but I can't say what probiotic I'm using :laugh:

Just be careful of those probiotic side effects ... especially the side effects from the Dutch study years ago.

tgzerozone

Also, here's a great YouTube video where Ian delves deeper into post-workout myths:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqSNOKL5ZkA&feature=plcp&context=C4c8ebf0VDvjVQa1PpcFOxxYsF5LOmIVvKcbwZxZ9v_1_gXoR0Oco%3D

Worth the watch. It's long but bear with it and you'll learn a lot.

How so?

That you attribute your success to your pre-, peri-, and post-workout nutrition.

Not at all, it fits in with the big picture.

songbyrdsweet

I'm REALLY bored with it right now lol...writing my lit review as part of my doctorate...UGGGHHH. I have results but I can't say what probiotic I'm using :laugh:

Just be careful of those probiotic side effects ... especially the side effects from Dutch study years ago.

These are actually already approved by the FDA (the only ones). They've been on the market a long time. My lab is interested in intestinal permeability and skeletal muscle metabolism, not really the overall effects of probiotics. Starting human trials this summer and another arm of the mouse trials.

rayleansout

i like the idea of whole foods beeter than powders whenver possibel, but i do use protein powder at least once a day to help keep cals down.

chcken breast - sweet potato - pre workout
Lean meat - banana - post workout
egg whites - before bed

kittyninja

Why do people have to complicate things so much?
I hate to sound cliche or ignorant- I'm not- but why not just follow the basics? Eat clean, train mean, enough protein. That's what I do...

heybales

I call it simple maths.

Start lean body weight: 56 kg (123 lbs)
End lean body weight: 63 kg (138 lbs)

subtract 123 lbs from 138.6 pounds and you get 15.6 lbs

divide 15 by 8 and you get 1.8 pounds.

Minus the 800 grams just to be very conservative.

That gives you 15 pounds in 8 weeks and over a pound a week. I like my delusions.

False foundation.

Lean Body Mass is EVERYTHING except fat. Muscle is obviously a part of that. So is energy storage and water retention.

tgzerozone

I call it simple maths.

Start lean body weight: 56 kg (123 lbs)
End lean body weight: 63 kg (138 lbs)

subtract 123 lbs from 138.6 pounds and you get 15.6 lbs

divide 15 by 8 and you get 1.8 pounds.

Minus the 800 grams just to be very conservative.

That gives you 15 pounds in 8 weeks and over a pound a week. I like my delusions.

False foundation.

Lean Body Mass is EVERYTHING except fat. Muscle is obviously a part of that. So is energy storage and water retention.

Indeed, the numbers aren't 100%. For one thing though, my bones aren't getting bigger so I would say it is safe to leave them out of the equation. I then went and got rid of another 800 grams per week for all the other variables. So the numbers are pretty conservative at that.

heybales

I call it simple maths.

Start lean body weight: 56 kg (123 lbs)
End lean body weight: 63 kg (138 lbs)

subtract 123 lbs from 138.6 pounds and you get 15.6 lbs

divide 15 by 8 and you get 1.8 pounds.

Minus the 800 grams just to be very conservative.

That gives you 15 pounds in 8 weeks and over a pound a week. I like my delusions.

False foundation.

Lean Body Mass is EVERYTHING except fat. Muscle is obviously a part of that. So is energy storage and water retention.

Indeed, the numbers aren't 100%. For one thing though, my bones aren't getting bigger so I would say it is safe to leave them out of the equation. I then went and got rid of another 800 grams per week for all the other variables. So the numbers are pretty conservative at that.

Extra 900 cal to build 1.5 lbs muscle isn't out of the question of course.

myak623

Here is a good read that gets into absorption speed of different types of protein. This is why protein timing pre and post workout isn't really that necessary.

http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/

AeolianHarp

:huh: I'm pretty sure we can assume he was also lifting.

I had assumed we already knew this and took that into account since he felt the need to consume glucose three times around working out.

UponThisRock

How I love a good 'ol bro-down.

OP, the burden of proof is on the party making the assertion. Ask any party that believes any of these myths if that can produce any studies showing that preworkout, postworkout, or prebed whey or casein makes a dimes worth of difference on lean mass gain/retention when daily protein is sufficient and equal in both groups.

I'll give you the cliffs: they can't.

songbyrdsweet

:huh: I'm pretty sure we can assume he was also lifting.

I had assumed we already knew this and took that into account since he felt the need to consume glucose three times around working out.

That would pretty much be the only time you'd want such a large glucose load. Problem?

AeolianHarp

That would pretty much be the only time you'd want such a large glucose load. Problem?

You tell me. You think it makes sense consuming glucose three times as well as whey (which would make up a considerable amount of your daily protein and carbohydrates) pre-, peri-, and post-workout? Not really. If one consumes a whole meal pre-workout then the food is constantly being digested. The need for quick absorbing protein and high glycemic carbohydrates is pretty much moot if a meal is consumed pre-workout. For example, milk digests at around 3.5g protein per hour. Please explain to me why you would need more protein if you have consumed sufficient amount of milk protein pre-workout when it digests at such a slow speed?

Even consider the fact that he's probably not an extremely hard working athlete, one that actually burns considerable amont of calories daily from training multiple times a day. Your average joe doesn't need nutrient timing.

akiramezu

Who cares what people say or what science says, you do what works for you.
I do post workout whey, fasted cardio and use supplements such as L-carnitine that supposedly don't work at all according to science and as the hodge twins say.
DO WHATEVER THE FUC*K YOU WANNA DO

AeolianHarp

Who cares what people say or what science says, you do what works for you.
I do post workout whey, fasted cardio and use supplements such as L-carnitine that supposedly don't work at all according to science and as the hodge twins say.
DO WHATEVER THE FUC*K YOU WANNA DO

So you should do something that makes no difference and waste your money and time? Wow. Well, the Hodge Twins are the epitome of stupidity, so if you wish to be associated with them then power to you!

tgzerozone

:huh: I'm pretty sure we can assume he was also lifting.

I had assumed we already knew this and took that into account since he felt the need to consume glucose three times around working out.

Yup, 150 grams of it. Gives you a buzz.

songbyrdsweet

That would pretty much be the only time you'd want such a large glucose load. Problem?

You tell me. You think it makes sense consuming glucose three times as well as whey (which would make up a considerable amount of your daily protein and carbohydrates) pre-, peri-, and post-workout? Not really. If one consumes a whole meal pre-workout then the food is constantly being digested. The need for quick absorbing protein and high glycemic carbohydrates is pretty much moot if a meal is consumed pre-workout. For example, milk digests at around 3.5g protein per hour. Please explain to me why you would need more protein if you have consumed sufficient amount of milk protein pre-workout when it digests at such a slow speed?

Even consider the fact that he's probably not an extremely hard working athlete, one that actually burns considerable amont of calories daily from training multiple times a day. Your average joe doesn't need nutrient timing.

Maybe it makes him feel good. Maybe it gives him a good pump. This lifestyle is 99% MENTAL. Changes to your body at 80/20 nutrition/exercise. Obviously he's making gains which he needs at 123 lbs (no offense!). Plus whey spikes plasma AA's far more than casein/milk. Also, digestion =/= absorption.