Vegan vs Health

sashy19

[quote

secretlobster

If you are looking to make a lifestyle change for your health and not for moral reasons, I wonder why you would choose a vegan diet. I have no idea why anyone would actually believe that eating meat, eggs, and fish is unhealthy. You can read all the vegan propaganda you want, but I really think you should talk to a nutritionist before you make a decision based on what's best for you physically.

sashy19

[quote

sashy19

If you are looking to make a lifestyle change for your health and not for moral reasons, I wonder why you would choose a vegan diet. I have no idea why anyone would actually believe that eating meat, eggs, and fish is unhealthy. You can read all the vegan propaganda you want, but I really think you should talk to a nutritionist before you make a decision based on what's best for you physically.

Plenty of studies have shown it can in fact be quite unhealthy to eat such a diet, especially ones high in red, fatty meats. Of course with moderation many can live quite healthfully eating such things. Science isn't propaganda. Seems much more propaganda/lobbying comes from the dairy and meat industries.

Marll

If you are looking to make a lifestyle change for your health and not for moral reasons, I wonder why you would choose a vegan diet. I have no idea why anyone would actually believe that eating meat, eggs, and fish is unhealthy. You can read all the vegan propaganda you want, but I really think you should talk to a nutritionist before you make a decision based on what's best for you physically.

Plenty of studies have shown it can in fact be quite unhealthy to eat such a diet, especially ones high in red, fatty meats. Of course with moderation many can live quite healthfully eating such things. Science isn't propaganda. Seems much more propaganda/lobbying comes from the dairy and meat industries.

Veganism is all about propoganda. It's the "morally" superior diet, it's "better" for the environment, and supposedly better for health, though it ignores all those pesky things like the fact that there is no natural way to get B12 (an essential vitamin, of which a severe deficiency can KILL YOU) except by eating animals.

You can spin it any way that you want, but a diet that requires you to supplement and fortify every food with a processed version of VITAL nutrients, is at it's very core flawed. I've never met more unhealthy, sickly looking people than vegans, except those that love to stave themselves lean as a substitute for eating.

FlaxMilk

One of the reasons for B-12 deficiency ironically has to do with how clean our food is. It also occurs in yeast. I agree that vegans need to supplement it, and that they could not get enough of the vitamin from eating the yeast, but a great deal of animal product eaters must also supplement like crazy. A great many obese Americans are malnourished. If B-12 is the only argument against veganism, I'll stay the course. I don't mind supplementing it. For a good deal of reasons, a good amount of people, regardless of diet, would not hit 100% of each and every vitamin value without supplementing. I've been vegan for a long time, and I don't look sick. And ALL of my blood levels at my blood test at my last physical were at a minimum in the healthy range and many were in the "phenomenal" range.

pdworkman

B12 does not occur naturally in yeast. Nutritional yeast is sometimes fortified with B12.

One of the reasons for B-12 deficiency ironically has to do with how clean our food is. It also occurs in yeast. I agree that vegans need to supplement it, and that they could not get enough of the vitamin from eating the yeast, but a great deal of animal product eaters must also supplement like crazy. A great many obese Americans are malnourished. If B-12 is the only argument against veganism, I'll stay the course. I don't mind supplementing it. For a good deal of reasons, a good amount of people, regardless of diet, would not hit 100% of each and every vitamin value without supplementing. I've been vegan for a long time, and I don't look sick. And ALL of my blood levels at my blood test at my last physical were at a minimum in the healthy range and many were in the "phenomenal" range.

FlaxMilk

My bad! But from my understanding, animals obtain their B-12 that meat eaters get from the same way vegan B-12 supplements are formed--from bacteria. Not some inherent animal magic.

pdworkman

Yes, animals get b12 from eating plants with the bacteria that produce it or by eating other animals.

My bad! But from my understanding, animals obtain their B-12 that meat eaters get from the same way vegan B-12 supplements are formed--from bacteria. Not some inherent animal magic.

sashy19

Veganism is all about propoganda. It's the "morally" superior diet, it's "better" for the environment, and supposedly better for health, though it ignores all those pesky things like the fact that there is no natural way to get B12 (an essential vitamin, of which a severe deficiency can KILL YOU) except by eating animals.

You can spin it any way that you want, but a diet that requires you to supplement and fortify every food with a processed version of VITAL nutrients, is at it's very core flawed. I've never met more unhealthy, sickly looking people than vegans, except those that love to stave themselves lean as a substitute for eating.

Some argue that there are ways to get B12 without animal products, but regardless, I'm not sure what the problem is with eating fortified cereal for example. Think of all of the fortified animals products such as milk that non-vegans eat as a part of their regular diets. That's not any different. Also, it's definitely not necessary to "supplement and fortify every food." Many doctors recommend a multi-vitamin for everyone anyway since few eat a perfect diet.

I have also yet to see how a vegetarian diet would be worse for the environment at the moment. The current agricultural system we have, especially with factory farming, is not sustainable.

Further, nearly all of the "unhealthy, sickly looking" people you speak of are those using the term "vegan" as a cover for an eating disorder. I was a strong, healthy D1 college athlete. I've never been sickly looking. Vegans come in all shapes and sizes, as do people on most diets. Pretty harsh blanket statement. There are plenty of unhealthy people who eat animal products. Think of the increasing rates of obesity and heart disease in this country which has doubled its meat consumption since the '50s.

BLy82

If you are looking to make a lifestyle change for your health and not for moral reasons, I wonder why you would choose a vegan diet. I have no idea why anyone would actually believe that eating meat, eggs, and fish is unhealthy. You can read all the vegan propaganda you want, but I really think you should talk to a nutritionist before you make a decision based on what's best for you physically.

There actually is research that shows that people on a balanced vegan diet are as a group generally both skinnier and healthier than the typical person who eats meat as a part of the standard american diet.

I've never actually seen a study where someone had compared people who eat vegan to omnivorous eaters in the same living environment who eat exclusively meat from healthy and well cared for animals (not at all available in your typical supermarket, but possible to get with some effort). It's not outside the realm of possibility that people who eat some meat would be healthier if they only eat good meat, and therefore minimized their exposure to things like BSE, salmonella, e.coli, industrial toxins in animal fat, PCBs, etc. Still, such a study would not be awfully relevant to whether it's a good idea health-wise to eat the animal products you can get at an ordinary grocery store -- which is what people who attack veganism as a health approach are eating in every case I've ever encountered at least.

BLy82

Further, nearly all of the "unhealthy, sickly looking" people you speak of are those using the term "vegan" as a cover for an eating disorder.

This is true in many cases, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable going quite so far as saying 'nearly all'. There are some people out there who are genuinely trying, but really somehow don't get the idea that not washing your vegetables is not an adequate way of getting B-12. There are also people who are eating vegan for 100% purely ethical reasons without a huge interest in health information who just eat all of their old dietary favorites, while substituting in fake meats for the meat. That probably is generally going to be a slight health improvement, but if it means you're constantly eating pasta and never going near a vegetable other than tomatoes that have been cooked into sauce, your health is still going to be pretty questionable.

Just as a purely personal theory... I think that some of the imagery of the sickly Vegan probably goes back a decade or more, before the amount of information on cooking and good eating available on the Internet was really exploding, and people who were wanting to eat Vegan for ethical reasons didn't have as much access to the sort of resources that make it clear that not eating meat doesn't mean you're off the hook on the whole 5-9 servings of fruits and vegetables per day thing if you want to be healthy.

The quality and availability of information for beginners has gone up a lot in the last few years, I think, and the massive growth of social network sites has given people a lot more access to a community where they can say "I'm eating x, y, and z. Does that sound about right?" to get easy feedback. Sure, there were books even a couple decades ago to help, but caring deeply about animals doesn't necessarily mean a person is a big fan of reading, you know?

EmilyTwist1

I'm not vegan, and it is not a lifestyle I would recommend for most people, due to the amount of work it takes to maintain proper nutrition. However, you're an adult and it's your decision to make.

As others have said, B12 supplements are a must! Prolonged B12 deficiency can result in irreversible neurological damage. If you're not eating meat or dirt (so far there are no known plant sources of B12), take supplements.

Protein is also important. Having all the amino acids is necessary to repair muscle after exercise and injuries. Most plants only have a few amino acids. The key to getting enough protein is variety. Don't rely on just soy. More variety will get you a better variety of nutrients. And this goes for omnivores as well.

Vegan can be healthy, but it takes work. And really, the same goes for just about any diet. In our society, many people do not pay attention to proper nutrition, and when someone like that becomes vegan, they often take their bad habits with them. In that situation, a vegan diet will be unhealthy (though such a person would have been unhealthy as an omnivore anyway). Whatever diet you choose, balance, variety, and awareness are your friends.

tigersword

I really would like to start eating vegan. It may be a stupid situation, but my family thinks it's unhealthy because they say we need certain amino acids that can be found only in meat and blablabla...
Is vegan really that bad? To me it seems very healthy
How can I change their minds?
Thanks

To be blunt, eating vegan is not any more or less healthy than any other way of eating. It's just a very restrictive way of eating. There are plenty of unhealthy vegan foods. Soda is vegan, for example. If you have strong reasons for doing it, and you can make the drastic lifestyle changes and sacrifices necessary to do it, by all means go for it. However, if you want to do it just because you think it will automatically make you healthy, I'd caution against it, because it won't automatically make you healthy, anymore than your current diet makes you healthy or not.

thelovelyLIZ

As long as you make sure you are getting the proper nutrition, than being vegan can be healthy and you can meet all your dietary needs. I eat vegetarian at least two meals a day, and my mom has expressed concern I'm not getting "complete proteins" which... is kind of a load of hooey.

You just have to really watch your intake and be aware of what you're putting in your body.

tigersword

Veganism is all about propoganda. It's the "morally" superior diet, it's "better" for the environment, and supposedly better for health, though it ignores all those pesky things like the fact that there is no natural way to get B12 (an essential vitamin, of which a severe deficiency can KILL YOU) except by eating animals.

You can spin it any way that you want, but a diet that requires you to supplement and fortify every food with a processed version of VITAL nutrients, is at it's very core flawed. I've never met more unhealthy, sickly looking people than vegans, except those that love to stave themselves lean as a substitute for eating.

Some argue that there are ways to get B12 without animal products, but regardless, I'm not sure what the problem is with eating fortified cereal for example. Think of all of the fortified animals products such as milk that non-vegans eat as a part of their regular diets. That's not any different. Also, it's definitely not necessary to "supplement and fortify every food." Many doctors recommend a multi-vitamin for everyone anyway since few eat a perfect diet.

I have also yet to see how a vegetarian diet would be worse for the environment at the moment. The current agricultural system we have, especially with factory farming, is not sustainable.

Further, nearly all of the "unhealthy, sickly looking" people you speak of are those using the term "vegan" as a cover for an eating disorder. I was a strong, healthy D1 college athlete. I've never been sickly looking. Vegans come in all shapes and sizes, as do people on most diets. Pretty harsh blanket statement. There are plenty of unhealthy people who eat animal products. Think of the increasing rates of obesity and heart disease in this country which has doubled its meat consumption since the '50s.

Hey look, vegan propaganda. This country has nowhere near "doubled its meat consumption since the 1950's." Per capita consumption of all meat products has stayed roughly the same, and even gone down between 1950 and 2009. I think you just proved the point that was being made.

v70t5m

According to this article published by the National Institutes of Health, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3045642/

U.S. meat consumption rose by a factor of 1.5x per person between 1961 and 2003.

USDA reports that total meat consumption rose by a factor of 2x per person between 1909 and 2007.

The article also reports a slight decline in red meat consumption, but a large increase in poultry consumption.


Quote from article "Evidence suggests vegetarians may be at lower risk for CVD, hypertension, diabetes mellitus, obesity, and cancer." No indication is made of their definition of "vegetarian."

tigersword

Actually, the USDA does not report meat consumption has risen that much, it reports availability has risen that much. When you adjust for loss and actual consumption, Americans are consuming approximately 4 pounds more meat per person than they were 50 years ago.

And the first article you linked to based their information on the same USDA information you quoted.

And vegetarian means vegetarian, not vegan. Most studies I've looked at actually show slightly lower rates of heart disease in younger vegetarians, that diminishes with age until it's the same as meat eaters, and they also tend to show that vegans actually have the same overall health risks as meat eaters, there is no health advantage either way.

There's also the caveat that most meat eaters tended to also have other behaviors, like drinking and smoking that could have led to higher disease rates, there hasn't been any kind of causal proof in any study.

In other words, it's all personal preference, no one way of eating is better than any other.

micls

'There actually is research that shows that people on a balanced vegan diet are as a group generally both skinnier and healthier than the typical person who eats meat as a part of the standard american diet. '

Correlation vs causation.

While excess red meat can lead to poorer health there's no direct evidence that eating vegan is better/healthier than eating a well balanced omniverous diet.

tigersword

Correlation vs causation.

v70t5m

Vegetarian is actually a large umbrella term - all vegans are vegetarians, but not all vegetarians are vegan.

Ovo-Veggie

Lacto-Veggie

Ovo-lacto-Veggie

Pescetarian

And then some Buddhist vegetarians eat shellfish while others do not.



There are several studies that indicate long-term vegetarians have lower: oxidative stress, risk of some cancers (such as colon), body fat, and cholesterol levels than their non-vegetarian counterparts (once again, no definition of "vegetarian").

One can be healthy or unhealthy on just about any kind of diet, our bodies are remarkably adaptable - look at how much change is wrought by exercise and weight lifting!


What does always surprise me (time and time again) is how much of a personal affront is experienced by omnivores when someone mentions choosing a vegetarian diet. An individual's decision to embrace vegetarian eating (even veganism) has no impact on you at all ... a personal diet, a personal decision. Look at it this way, one fewer inividual eating less meat makes for more meat available to the omnivore.

I do realize that we have all run into the vegetarian proselyter, preaching to the unwilling, and leaving a bad taste behind. But do not paint all vegetarians with that brush, and we will attempt to not lump all omnivores into a negative category in return.

jerseyj23

there are some great books that have a lot of really good strong points on being vegan which you can share with them i suggest skinny *****, eat to live, the kind diet

Destinie589

Naaaaah you're fine.
I've been vegetarian my entire life and aside from (obviously) being over weight my body is SUPER healthy.
I've been vegan for a smidge over a year now and it's gotten me to be even more healthy.

I would STRONGLY suggest you slowly go vegan. I've had friends who got very ill from switching like that. So maybe do pescitarian, vegetarian, vegan. And that really only applies if you eat a lot of meat and are still learning as to what types of foods you need to be eating in that lifestyle.

Good luck =]

This! Transition is key. You could also just flat out get frustrated if switched over without a transition phase. And the transition will allow you time to learn how to cook certain foods properly and add them together to create balance. And as everyone mentioned just do some research. http://www.vegancoach.com/

CountryMom03

I concur with most the people here. Don't try to convince anyone. If you do it, and do it right, you can be healthy, and that will make an argument louder than words.

My wife and I have been on a whole-food, plant-based diet for over 7 months now, and we feel better than ever. You can do it!

This! ^^ Although I am not vegan, I admire people that are. It truly is the optimal health route! We watched a documentary that was done by some locals docs here in town called..."Forks Over Knives" and it was SO eye opening! I think Netflix has it! We got to watch it and then discuss it with the docs afterwards. I would love to go Vegan simply for all the health benefits of it but there is just some things I cant let go of yet lol.

If you truly do eat whole foods, plant based with EVERYTHING then you wont have any problem with nutrients, every nutrient you need is in some kind of plant or whole food. That being said...where there becomes a problem is when a person who is vegan only eats certain things or not a whole lot of something, etc and thats when they become defificient in vits and nutrients. If your going to go vegan, you need to be open to lots of things and be able to get used to certain foods even if you dont necessarily like them.

But doing this, you can actually reverse health ailments that you have had for yrs! I suggest watching that documentary, its really good and has lots of studies and such in it. Good Luck!:) :flowerforyou: ...maybe Ill have the courage to do it one day also hehe

secretlobster

You can't change their minds because they're right.

Sorry. I completely respect veganism for moral reasons but it's not a healthier way to live.

Bunnybeesweet

It takes time and energy and practice to do anything well. Becoming vegan is no different...but it can be more than worth the effort. I've gotten really good at meeting my nutritional needs...which are now those of an athlete!

Thrive by Brendan Brazier, and his Vega nutrition line are great vegan resources too.

VeganJamiOnAMission

If you really want to become vegan, you MUST read labels carefully. You would be shocked about how many animal products that are in your food, shampoos, cosmetics, etc. Check out this website for an A - Z list of all the animal ingredients that are hidden under different names. http://www.happycow.net/health-animal-ingredients.html Also, you mentioned that are taking a multivitamin. If it doesn't specifically say Vegan it has animal ingredients in it. Deva Vegan is a great line of Vegan vitamins and supplements. Like everyone else on here says, you can totally be a healthy Vegan. Hang in there and don't let your family discourage you. Some people just don't understand, but they will eventually stop pestering you about it.

wild_wild_life

I have been vegetarian for 22 years and vegan off and on for ethical reasons. I don't know if a vegetarian or vegan diet is more healthy than a diet that includes meat -- I'm sure it depends how you do it.

I understand the importance of having family on board with and supportive of, or at least not disapproving of, your diet. I disagree with those who say not to worry about what they think. I think what you need to do is figure out exactly what your reasons are and explain them as well as you can to your family. If they have objections on certain points, do the research and see if you can find evidence to the contrary. This will show them that you enter into it responsibly and have weighed the pros and cons. I hope that the respect is there between you and your family that they will respect your well informed decision.

It helped me a lot that my mom went vegetarian with me when I was 16 -- she has gone back and forth a few times but remained supportive and recently went back to it after reading the omnivore's delimma. I think having the support of your family is important. Feel free to friend me if you want support elsewhere!

msps1973

I am currently a pescetarian but was vegan for about 8 months (going to switch back slowly this summer). I don't eat a lot of dairy or eggs. I did a lot of research- 30 day vegan challenge, The Kind Life, etc. are all good books to read. My husband and friends gave me a lot of crap but my family was ok with it since my sister has been veggie for about 18 years and was vegan for a while. I had gone back and forth to veggie the past 20 years as well. I recently had blood tests done and everything was normal. I take a vegan pre-natal, flaxseed oil and a probiotic. Vega vanilla protien powder is awesome (but expensive) and Garden of Life Raw protein powder is good too!!! I have a "green monster" everyday for breakfast or after I run or lift. This is how I get the bulk of my protein for the day.

Try not to rely on meat substitutes as they are highly processed. I try to only eat them a few times a week (ie; when I am too lazy to cook!!!). All the nutrients you need are found in veggies, fruits and grains. Quinoa is the best thing to eat. And you can make it savory or sweet. Nutritional yeast is a yummy way to get some extra B12 or you can take a supplement.

www.ohsheglows.com is full of great recipes without meat substitues. That is where I found the green monster. theppk.com is good to and chocolate covered katie has great dessert recipes.

The best way to deal with the family is to have them try some of your food!!! And once they see how healthy you are they will realize that your decision was a good one. I definetly feel better and my body processes food better (if you catch my drift).

Good luck!!!

geekyjock76

Just out of curiosity, if I went vegan, what kinds of foods and how much quantities would I need to eat to meet my macros and TDEE with the following info:
2150 calorie TDEE
Protein: 225g 42%
Carbs: 123g 23%
Fat: 92g 35%

Note: I'm low-carb currently following a modified primal diet and max my carbs at 125g.

Truly high-protein veggies I thought of: Chickpeas and Mung beans...

Foods to avoid: all soy-based products.