What will make you fatter...?

songbyrdsweet

No one ever talks to me on these threads.

grinch031

No one ever talks to me on these threads.

I would if I knew what you were talking about.

TitanGM

Lol... either way is the same. Extra cals go as fat either if that is carbs or fat. Is like saying which is heavier 1 pound of iron or 1 pound of cotton... Tricky question from you

Deathangl13

Both 1,000 calories so it wouldn't matter...

suprfast

Let's assume you are currently maintaining on 2,000 calories a day 50/30/20 C/F/P and you were to overeat consistently by 1,000 calories of either pure carbs or pure fat for a month, which would make you fatter, or would there be no difference and why?

Curious as to what people think. I've seen people state that anything over 15g of cho in a meal will be stored as fat or that fat makes you fat etc etc. So which is worse to overeat, carbs or fats or does it not matter?

Why is your protein so low to begin with? Up that and lower the carbs. Fats might even be a tad low still.

Acg67

In a healthy individual, your body will shift to oxidize whatever you're feeding it. However, obese individuals are metabolically inflexible, meaning they primarily oxidize glucose regardless of whether they're being challenged with a high-fat meal. So those FA's are stored rather than being oxidized.

Interestingly enough in the study posted, fat oxidation did not increase significantly to the fat overfeeding, but CHO oxidation did

ycbrewster

I'm going more with this thought process too. If you spike your sugar level, your body is going to start storing carbs as fat. It's not so much the calories you take in as much as it is the calories you take in and what you BURN...if you peak your sugar levels in essence you're changing your metabolism and burning less...so I'd say the carbs will make you fatter...

Kevww1982

What weighs more a ton of bricks or a ton of feathers?

neanderthin

Acg, another thing I don't understand is why fasting insulin levels were so different in lean individuals on Day 0 between CHO and Fat overfeeders. Wasn't this before the overfeeding began?

That is a good question and isn't brought up in the study, I'll have to think why that could be.

I'm assuming naturally lean individuals have lower and better regulated insulin levels than overweight individuals.

If insulin has nothing to do with obesity, then why would you think that?

And can you answer the question I am still confused about? It seems like CHO overfeeding defies the laws of physics, unless someone can help me explain the discrepancy.

The variances in insulin sensitivity and other personal metabolic behaviours are all taken into account on the outside of the energy balance equation. It's the reason carb sensitive people eat fewer carbs like people that have diabetes, PCOS etc, not to be confused with the thought that somehow lower carbs has a metabolic advantage. I eat few carbs because it helps me regulate my eating patterns so I don't overfeed on carbs I can believe for me that lower carbs have a meaning in my weight loss goal (satiating) and it's a more natural way of eating for me now.

But do you think insulin has anything to do with your eating patterns as it pertains to carbs? The consensus on this forum is that the majority of obese people have no problem with carbs or insulin at all, and that the number of people who do is so small that it shouldn't even be mentioned as a possibility most of the time. Do you take that stance as well?

No, I don't think it has anything to do with insulin but has do do with a multiple of factors that create an overeating situation for any one individual. Insulin sensitivity is easily controlled with diet, but their addiction to carbs and a very poor relationship with food in general is not. Lets face it almost all dieters fail unless there's an asserted effort to completely change their lifestyle.

grinch031

In a healthy individual, your body will shift to oxidize whatever you're feeding it. However, obese individuals are metabolically inflexible, meaning they primarily oxidize glucose regardless of whether they're being challenged with a high-fat meal. So those FA's are stored rather than being oxidized.

Interestingly enough in the study posted, fat oxidation did not increase significantly to the fat overfeeding, but CHO oxidation did

There was no need to increase fat oxidation because there was plenty of glucose available.

Acg67

Acg, another thing I don't understand is why fasting insulin levels were so different in lean individuals on Day 0 between CHO and Fat overfeeders. Wasn't this before the overfeeding began?

That is a good question and isn't brought up in the study, I'll have to think why that could be.

You still haven't answered my other question. Can you explain in your own words why there seems to be a contradiction between Figures 1 and 2 when looking at Table 2. True or false, the dieters gained the same amount of fat mass on both fat and CHO overfeeding? If so, how is it possible that CHO overfeeding led to higher total energy expenditure?

False, more fat was gained witht he fat overfeeding as stated. TEF of CHO > TEF of fat

grinch031

Acg, another thing I don't understand is why fasting insulin levels were so different in lean individuals on Day 0 between CHO and Fat overfeeders. Wasn't this before the overfeeding began?

That is a good question and isn't brought up in the study, I'll have to think why that could be.

I'm assuming naturally lean individuals have lower and better regulated insulin levels than overweight individuals.

If insulin has nothing to do with obesity, then why would you think that?

And can you answer the question I am still confused about? It seems like CHO overfeeding defies the laws of physics, unless someone can help me explain the discrepancy.

The variances in insulin sensitivity and other personal metabolic behaviours are all taken into account on the outside of the energy balance equation. It's the reason carb sensitive people eat fewer carbs like people that have diabetes, PCOS etc, not to be confused with the thought that somehow lower carbs has a metabolic advantage. I eat few carbs because it helps me regulate my eating patterns so I don't overfeed on carbs I can believe for me that lower carbs have a meaning in my weight loss goal (satiating) and it's a more natural way of eating for me now.

But do you think insulin has anything to do with your eating patterns as it pertains to carbs? The consensus on this forum is that the majority of obese people have no problem with carbs or insulin at all, and that the number of people who do is so small that it shouldn't even be mentioned as a possibility most of the time. Do you take that stance as well?

No, I don't think it has anything to do with insulin but has do do with a multiple of factors that create an overeating situation for any one individual. Insulin sensitivity is easily controlled with diet, but their addiction to carbs and a very poor relationship with food in general is not. Lets face it almost all dieters fail unless there's an asserted effort to completely change their lifestyle.

My take is you can optimally control leptin and insulin on a low-carb diet, and exercise is useless when used to burn calories, but effective when used to improve insulin sensitivity. And I think the problem that still remains is food reward, where your brain wants you to cheat and eat those high-carb, low-nutritional value foods. Ultimately I think avoiding those foods makes it easy to create a caloric deficit, but trying to eat them regularly but still within moderation can lead to insulin and leptin to act in ways that will induce over-eating. Of course this is the simplified version.

grinch031

Acg, another thing I don't understand is why fasting insulin levels were so different in lean individuals on Day 0 between CHO and Fat overfeeders. Wasn't this before the overfeeding began?

That is a good question and isn't brought up in the study, I'll have to think why that could be.

You still haven't answered my other question. Can you explain in your own words why there seems to be a contradiction between Figures 1 and 2 when looking at Table 2. True or false, the dieters gained the same amount of fat mass on both fat and CHO overfeeding? If so, how is it possible that CHO overfeeding led to higher total energy expenditure?

False, more fat was gained witht he fat overfeeding as stated. TEF of CHO > TEF of fat

So why does Table 2 say the following:

Change in fat mass from CHO: 1.48kg

Change in fat mass from Fat: 1.51kg

So they draw this conclusion that fat is bad because of a 0.03kg gain in the fat diet?

songbyrdsweet

In a healthy individual, your body will shift to oxidize whatever you're feeding it. However, obese individuals are metabolically inflexible, meaning they primarily oxidize glucose regardless of whether they're being challenged with a high-fat meal. So those FA's are stored rather than being oxidized.

Interestingly enough in the study posted, fat oxidation did not increase significantly to the fat overfeeding, but CHO oxidation did

A friend!

Ugh, I really do have to look at this study now to give any feedback. But I don't want to. So I will say....

If they were fasted, FA oxidation will increase simply because they were fasted when the measurements were taken
If they were fed, CHO oxidation will increase simply because they were fed etc. as above

If they were obese, they won't see an increase in FA oxidation either way
If they are lean, they should see an increase in the oxidation of whatever macronutrient was the primary source of calories

If they are taking in a caloric excess, FA oxidation will be low (depending on the time of feeding) because you can't oxidize FA's at the same time you're making triglycerides
Same thing goes for carbohydrates

End.

songbyrdsweet

No one ever talks to me on these threads.

I would if I knew what you were talking about.

Haha, my area of study is very new. Hasn't filtered in to mainstream information yet. But I appreciate that! :]

Acg67

Acg, another thing I don't understand is why fasting insulin levels were so different in lean individuals on Day 0 between CHO and Fat overfeeders. Wasn't this before the overfeeding began?

That is a good question and isn't brought up in the study, I'll have to think why that could be.

You still haven't answered my other question. Can you explain in your own words why there seems to be a contradiction between Figures 1 and 2 when looking at Table 2. True or false, the dieters gained the same amount of fat mass on both fat and CHO overfeeding? If so, how is it possible that CHO overfeeding led to higher total energy expenditure?

False, more fat was gained witht he fat overfeeding as stated. TEF of CHO > TEF of fat

So why does Table 2 say the following:

Change in fat mass from CHO: 1.48kg

Change in fat mass from Fat: 1.51kg

So they draw this conclusion that fat is bad because of a 0.03kg gain in the fat diet?

You're projecting, where did anyone or the study conclude fat was bad?

neanderthin

but trying to eat them regularly but still within moderation can lead to insulin and leptin

Your assuming too much with insulin and leptin.....naturally lean individuals can eat whatever they want and still stay lean.........their lifestyle is the key, not their insulin or leptin levels. I eat icecream, pasta, bread, basically all the bad carbs, but not much of them because I'm not predisposed or conditioned to overeat at those obesity levels and I eat them in moderation without thinking about it. If you or anyone else can't then of course they need to be careful.

songbyrdsweet

Actually naturally lean individuals have a different profile of gut bacteria from naturally heavy individuals. That seems to play a larger role than anything else because the gut bacteria can influence hormone levels via the endocannabinoid system. They can do tons of other stuff as well.

hpsnickers1

No one ever talks to me on these threads.

I'll talk to you!

Lean individuals don't necessarily have better insulin sensitivity. There are thin diabetics out there (just like there are obese people that have high blood sugars but will never become diabetic - my grandma was one of them). Most of them are probably undiagnosed because doctors only seem to check blood sugars/inslin when you're obese. I'm pre-diabetic (Reactive Hypoglycemia). I have insulin resistance and I've had it my whole life - I just thought the blood sugar crash was hunger. -Yes part of that is genetic but genetics aren't destiny. There has got to be a defining mechanism. I wish I could've started life eating like a diabetic should but my parents didn't know any better. Thin offspring of diabetics have more insulin resistance than "normal" people.

I'm fat-adapted now so eating too carbs at one time REALLY screws my body up now. My body has no use for all that glucose. My brain even prefers fat.

I'm with you on the gut thing... I think the research being done on Leaky Gut Syndrome is going to get us somewhere - hopefully - it will depend on who does the research. Chris Kresser has discussed this before. Wouldn't it just be a hoot if we found out the pretty much every modern chronic disease is started with a "mess up" in the gut? And when the gut is messed up the brain is messed up. And other systems are messed up. I know this because I have had gut issues my entire life.

I think it's funny how hard people try to stay bacteria-free. Sanitizers, anti-bacterial soaps, etc. There isn't enough sanitizer in world to get rid of all the "germs" on us. Bacteria rule this world and when we are all gone the bacteria will still be here.

grinch031

but trying to eat them regularly but still within moderation can lead to insulin and leptin

Your assuming too much with insulin and leptin.....naturally lean individuals can eat whatever they want and still stay lean.........their lifestyle is the key, not their insulin or leptin levels. I eat icecream, pasta, bread, basically all the bad carbs, but not much of them because I'm not predisposed or conditioned to overeat at those obesity levels and I eat them in moderation without thinking about it. If you or anyone else can't then of course they need to be careful.

I thought it was obvious I was only talking about people with weight problems. Naturally lean individuals will be lean regardless of their lifestyle because they are genetically blessed. Naturally lean individuals can eat ice cream, white bread, and other junk foods and they don't get fat because their body will suppress their appetite to maintain homeostasis and avoid weight gain.

grinch031

Acg, another thing I don't understand is why fasting insulin levels were so different in lean individuals on Day 0 between CHO and Fat overfeeders. Wasn't this before the overfeeding began?

That is a good question and isn't brought up in the study, I'll have to think why that could be.

You still haven't answered my other question. Can you explain in your own words why there seems to be a contradiction between Figures 1 and 2 when looking at Table 2. True or false, the dieters gained the same amount of fat mass on both fat and CHO overfeeding? If so, how is it possible that CHO overfeeding led to higher total energy expenditure?

False, more fat was gained witht he fat overfeeding as stated. TEF of CHO > TEF of fat

So why does Table 2 say the following:

Change in fat mass from CHO: 1.48kg

Change in fat mass from Fat: 1.51kg

So they draw this conclusion that fat is bad because of a 0.03kg gain in the fat diet?

You're projecting, where did anyone or the study conclude fat was bad?

They concluded that dietary fat leads to greater fat accumulation but this table contradicts that conclusion. They go on to criticize high fat diets in general.

sarahc001

I would think that absorption would play a factor here. For some people more carbs = more fiber = less time for food to stay in the digestive tract; therefore less time for it to be absorbed by the body and less retention of the nutrients and calories....I know in my husband's case he can eat tons of crap with impunity because he literally craps several times a day. In his case a high *fat* meal will certainly result in a trip to the restroom within less than an hour of eating. (I suspect in his case he has IBS.) I haven't taken the time to investigate any studies regarding absorption; however I have to think that depending on the person, whatever gets the food out of the body most quickly (and this may very from person to person) and does not allow for absorption would cause the least gain.

nikkijoshua

Overeating anything by 1000 cal/day will make you fatter whether it's carbs, fat, or protein. Just because insulin is released in response to blood glucose doesn't necessarily mean that the glucose is going to be stored as fat. The body breaks down carbs into glucose (blood sugar) to be used for energy. The insulin causes the cells of the body to be able to absorb that glucose for use. If there is more glucose available than the body needs for energy, it is first stored as glycogen in the muscles and liver. If those glycogen stores are full, then the remaining glucose is stored as fat. That's why the type of carbs you eat are so important. Simple carbs like sugar and white flour cause a spike in insulin because all of the glucose from simple carbs enter the blood very quickly and the body may not need that much energy at one time so alot of it is likely to be stored as glycogen and/or fat. The glucose from complex carbs like whole grains, fruits, and vegetables enter the blood more slowly by releasing smaller amounts of glucose at a time into the bloodstream so you're more likely to use that smaller amount of glucose for energy or store it as glycogen before it's stored as fat.