is a calorie just a calorie?

earlyxer

Joejccva -

Okay, Joe, you're 100% correct. Eat those 14 Twinkies a day. Have some Ring Dings too, okay? I don't know what your goals are, but really - I'm 14% body fat right now. Where are you? Looking at your photo, I'd put you at 22%. Maybe higher.

I don't ask homeless people for financial advice, if you get my meaning.

Do you think you're in the position to insult other people's physiques?

Not a bit, I'm not a body builder. Never claimed to be, I only started serious exercise at 44 so I never will be either, Sidesteal. But Joe can defend himself.

earlyxer

Acg7 - I never said anything of the sort (that you would get fatter), if you go back to Page 1. I said a calorie wasn't a calorie and that you would not reach your goals (unless they are very modest goals) on the Twinkie Diet. I also advocated high protein meats/eggs and fibrous vegetables as the basis of a good fat loss diet.

Acg67

Acg7 - I never said anything of the sort (that you would get fatter), if you go back to Page 1. I said a calorie wasn't a calorie and that you would not reach your goals (unless they are very modest goals) on the Twinkie Diet. I also advocated high protein meats/eggs and fibrous vegetables as the basis of a good fat loss diet.

And what did you mean by the below, particularly the bolded?

I'd like YOU tell me how juicing an orange versus eating an orange is the same thing, because it's not. That's like saying eating boiled wheat is the same as eating wheat flour of the same portion. How your body has to process food has a huge impact on whether you store it as fat or use it as fuel. Every time you process it, sugar/carbs go up, fiber goes down, and nutrition is lost, regardless of whether you are in calorie surplus or deficit.

ahsats

You boys are catty little things.

earlyxer

Acg7 - I never said anything of the sort (that you would get fatter), if you go back to Page 1. I said a calorie wasn't a calorie and that you would not reach your goals (unless they are very modest goals) on the Twinkie Diet. I also advocated high protein meats/eggs and fibrous vegetables as the basis of a good fat loss diet.

And what did you mean by the below, particularly the bolded?

I'd like YOU tell me how juicing an orange versus eating an orange is the same thing, because it's not. That's like saying eating boiled wheat is the same as eating wheat flour of the same portion. How your body has to process food has a huge impact on whether you store it as fat or use it as fuel. Every time you process it, sugar/carbs go up, fiber goes down, and nutrition is lost, regardless of whether you are in calorie surplus or deficit.

Acg67 -

I think the bolded portion is self explanatory, so I'm not quite certain what you would like me to expound. What I am saying is that if you take a whole food, for example an apple, and you make from it apple cider and drink it, all the cells have been opened and all the liquid (essentially sugar water) has been released. This is different than you eating the apple, where chunks of it enter your gut and your body is then required to expend energy to release the sugars, therefore reducing net calories that are available to you. Therefore, eating the apple is better for fat loss than drinking the cider (not that fruit is wonderful for fat loss, but you get the point). Basically, the calories are time-released to your system instead of coming in bursts.

In the same vein, a whole grain is better than a whole flour is better than a white flour. The more complex the carb, the better it is for fat loss, and every time you process it before you eat it, you make it easier for your body to get the calories - which is inimical to calorie control and weight loss. Even cooking a food breaks it down so that your body digests it more easily.

Is that more clear?

AllTehBeers

You boys are catty little things.

Isn't it great? *watches all the abs fill up the thread*

Acg67

Acg7 - I never said anything of the sort (that you would get fatter), if you go back to Page 1. I said a calorie wasn't a calorie and that you would not reach your goals (unless they are very modest goals) on the Twinkie Diet. I also advocated high protein meats/eggs and fibrous vegetables as the basis of a good fat loss diet.

And what did you mean by the below, particularly the bolded?

I'd like YOU tell me how juicing an orange versus eating an orange is the same thing, because it's not. That's like saying eating boiled wheat is the same as eating wheat flour of the same portion. How your body has to process food has a huge impact on whether you store it as fat or use it as fuel. Every time you process it, sugar/carbs go up, fiber goes down, and nutrition is lost, regardless of whether you are in calorie surplus or deficit.

Acg67 -

I think the bolded portion is self explanatory, so I'm not quite certain what you would like me to expound. What I am saying is that if you take a whole food, for example an apple, and you make from it apple cider and drink it, all the cells have been opened and all the liquid (essentially sugar water) has been released. This is different than you eating the apple, where chunks of it enter your gut and your body is then required to expend energy to release the sugars, therefore reducing net calories that are available to you. Therefore, eating the apple is better for fat loss than drinking the cider (not that fruit is wonderful for fat loss, but you get the point). Basically, the calories are time-released to your system instead of coming in bursts.

In the same vein, a whole grain is better than a whole flour is better than a white flour. The more complex the carb, the better it is for fat loss, and every time you process it before you eat it, you make it easier for your body to get the calories - which is inimical to calorie control and weight loss.

Is that more clear?

Not really, when does it get stored as fat in a hypocaloric state and your assertion that complex carbs are better for weight loss doesn't appear to be true. Low GI carbs are associated with being more complex, right? Well...

An 18-mo randomized trial of a low-glycemic-index diet and weight change in Brazilian women

http://www.ajcn.org/content/86/3/707.abstract

Conclusions: Long-term weight changes were not significantly different between the HGI and LGI diet groups; therefore, this study does not support a benefit of an LGI diet for weight control. Favorable changes in lipids confirmed previous results.

Reduced glycemic index and glycemic load diets do not increase the effects of energy restriction on weight loss and insulin sensitivity in obese men and women.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16177201

In summary, lowering the glycemic load and glycemic index of weight reduction diets does not provide any added benefit to energy restriction in promoting weight loss in obese subjects.

Long-term effects of 2 energy-restricted diets differing in glycemic load on dietary adherence, body composition, and metabolism in CALERIE: a 1-y randomized controlled trial

http://www.ajcn.org/content/85/4/1023.abstract?ijkey=57903af923cb2fcdc065ffd37b00a32e22f4c5cf&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

Conclusions:These findings provide more detailed evidence to suggest that diets differing substantially in glycemic load induce comparable long-term weight loss.

No effect of a diet with a reduced glycaemic index on satiety, energy intake and body weight in overweight and obese women.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17923862

CONCLUSION:
This study provides no evidence to support an effect of a reduced GI diet on satiety, energy intake or body weight in overweight/obese women. Claims that the GI of the diet per se may have specific effects on body weight may therefore be misleading.

Diaz EO et. al. Glycaemic index effects on fuel partitioning in humans. Obes Rev. (2006) 7:219-26.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-789X.2006.00225.x/full

Summary
The purpose of this review was to examine the role of glycaemic index in fuel partitioning and body composition with emphasis on fat oxidation/storage in humans. This relationship is based on the hypothesis postulating that a higher serum glucose and insulin response induced by high-glycaemic carbohydrates promotes lower fat oxidation and higher fat storage in comparison with low-glycaemic carbohydrates. Thus, high-glycaemic index meals could contribute to the maintenance of excess weight in obese individuals and/or predispose obesity-prone subjects to weight gain. Several studies comparing the effects of meals with contrasting glycaemic carbohydrates for hours, days or weeks have failed to demonstrate any differential effect on fuel partitioning when either substrate oxidation or body composition measurements were performed. Apparently, the glycaemic index-induced serum insulin differences are not sufficient in magnitude and/or duration to modify fuel oxidation.

NeverGivesUp

I have thought about this question a lot. The way I see it is that no it is not. If you eat metabolism boosting, vitamin packed foods then you are much better off. Not only are you getting all your nutrients from your food, but you are also helping your body to function at it's full capability. Not only that, but many of these vitamin packed foods help with cancer prevention too which is an added benefit.

2monthstogo

Out of all the posts, this one is actually the most accurate. Eating certian foods is vital to a healthy weight loss. His example with the organes was absolutely bang on!

juliet81

This is all vey interesting.............

Regarding piont 6- as well as repair muscle, Your body will use more calories to digest protien as it is harder to break down, this is why it keeps you fuller for longer, thus promotig matabolism ticking over thoughout the day. lots of protien wont be stored as fat but will be chained up for amino acids.......however to much protien can be bad for the kidneys (everything in moderation).

I am loving this thread

My Tip of the day is to have a protein shake before bed- I do this for recovery through the night, my matabolism will be working no point starving it for 8 hours oh!!! and as i said before protien takes longer to break down this = burning more calories as I sleep

JU

HonkyTonks

hit macros/cals. Eat a variety of foods to cover micronutrients.

All good

^^ This. You don't need to eat lettuce leaves all day to be healthy. If you want a muffin for 200 calories that's fine, just don't eat muffins to make up your whole calorie goal.

earlyxer

Not really, when does it get stored as fat in a hypocaloric state and your assertion that complex carbs are better for weight loss doesn't appear to be true. Low GI carbs are associated with being more complex, right? Well.

I don't agree - while broccoli, which I think I eat at least twice a day (and is the first veg I mentioned in my initial post) has a GI of 15, right at the bottom of the GI scale with all the others ( beans, asparagus, cauliflower, spinach). However, the point I am making is that they are fibrous AND they have a low caloric density. You can eat a ton of broccoli and not risk exceeding your calorie goal for the day (or meal). Try doing that with a high density food, like bacon.

Acg67

Not really, when does it get stored as fat in a hypocaloric state and your assertion that complex carbs are better for weight loss doesn't appear to be true. Low GI carbs are associated with being more complex, right? Well.

I don't agree - while broccoli, which I think I eat at least twice a day (and is the first veg I mentioned in my initial post) has a GI of 15, right at the bottom of the GI scale with all the others ( beans, asparagus, cauliflower, spinach). However, the point I am making is that they are fibrous AND they have a low caloric density. You can eat a ton of broccoli and not risk exceeding your calorie goal for the day (or meal). Try doing that with a high density food, like bacon.

“There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance.”
― Hippocrates

earlyxer

Acg - tell me you got those abs of yours on The Twinkie Diet.

joejccva71

Acg - tell me you got those abs of yours on The Twinkie Diet.

He could have as long as his calorie intake didn't go over his TDEE granted he consumed enough protein also to retain LBM.

Burning fat is about eating a deficit under your TDEE. Energy in vs energy out. The sooner you realize this, the better off you'll be.

Acg67

Acg - tell me you got those abs of yours on The Twinkie Diet.

No, I don't really like Twinkies. I did eat Ben and Jerry's 4-7x a week though

OSC_ESD

No ! A calorie is absolutely not just a calorie ! If somebody consumes 1200 calories of fast food, processed foods, sugary snacks and soda ~ vs ~ somebody whom consumes 1200 calories of nuts, seeds, veggies, fruits, whole grains, lean meats and fish ... I guarantee you the person with poor diet choices will not feel the benefits of a healthy diet. With that being said ... Can you lose weight eating like that ??? Sure ... But you will never get that lean look and have a healthy lifestyle. Not only does your body thrive on nutrients ... But it's just not about the fat or weight loss. Your brain power, heart,, cardiovascular health, hair, nails, skin, muscles ... All depend on healthy choices. When we eat crap ... We generally feel like crap !

Go ahead .. Test the theory ... See how good it feels to fuel a machine ( your body ) with optimum performance foods ... There is no better feeling in the world than knowing your running on prime nutrients !

I am not saying you can't splurge ... Enjoy your favorites ... Just be certain to have a nice mix .... Like the perfect cocktail !

I may be out numbered by the folks who say ... " a calorie is just a calorie " ... But I ask you to just try to implement more " one ingredient " foods in your menus and see the difference in how you feel !

Best of luck my friend ... Cheers to choices ! :drinker:

joejccva71

No ! A calorie is absolutely not just a calorie ! If somebody consumes 1200 calories of fast food, processed foods, sugary snacks and soda ~ vs ~ somebody whom consumes 1200 calories of nuts, seeds, veggies, fruits, whole grains, lean meats and fish ... I guarantee you the person with poor diet choices will not feel the benefits of a healthy diet. With that being said ... Can you lose weight eating like that ??? Sure ... But you will never get that lean look and have a healthy lifestyle. Not only does your body thrive on nutrients ... But it's just not about the fat or weight loss. Your brain power, heart,, cardiovascular health, hair, nails, skin, muscles ... All depend on healthy choices. When we eat crap ... We generally feel like crap !

Go ahead .. Test the theory ... See how good it feels to fuel a machine ( your body ) with optimum performance foods ... There is no better feeling in the world than knowing your running on prime nutrients !

I am not saying you can't splurge ... Enjoy your favorites ... Just be certain to have a nice mix .... Like the perfect cocktail !

I may be out numbered by the folks who say ... " a calorie is just a calorie " ... But I ask you to just try to implement more " one ingredient " foods in your menus and see the difference in how you feel !

Best of luck my friend ... Cheers to choices ! :drinker:

Again, since people are having a few issues reading correctly. In fact, I'll use CAPS so everyone can see.

A CALORIE IS A CALORIE IN TERMS OF WEIGHT LOSS.

This was the entire argument. Of course no one is going to eat nothing but chocolate bars all day, every day and not have health problems down the road, but that person will in fact lose fat AND muscle if he did as long as he ate a deficit...therefore LOSING WEIGHT. Tada!

Why oh why can't people READ and UNDERSTAND this!? I'll never know.

Sublog

Mygrl -

As counterintuitive as it may seem, fruit is actually not very good for fat loss.

You need to understand there are no "bad foods" for fat loss while in a calorie deficit. We ALL are counting calories here. That's why we are here.

NeverGivesUp

No ! A calorie is absolutely not just a calorie ! If somebody consumes 1200 calories of fast food, processed foods, sugary snacks and soda ~ vs ~ somebody whom consumes 1200 calories of nuts, seeds, veggies, fruits, whole grains, lean meats and fish ... I guarantee you the person with poor diet choices will not feel the benefits of a healthy diet. With that being said ... Can you lose weight eating like that ??? Sure ... But you will never get that lean look and have a healthy lifestyle. Not only does your body thrive on nutrients ... But it's just not about the fat or weight loss. Your brain power, heart,, cardiovascular health, hair, nails, skin, muscles ... All depend on healthy choices. When we eat crap ... We generally feel like crap !

Go ahead .. Test the theory ... See how good it feels to fuel a machine ( your body ) with optimum performance foods ... There is no better feeling in the world than knowing your running on prime nutrients !

I am not saying you can't splurge ... Enjoy your favorites ... Just be certain to have a nice mix .... Like the perfect cocktail !

I may be out numbered by the folks who say ... " a calorie is just a calorie " ... But I ask you to just try to implement more " one ingredient " foods in your menus and see the difference in how you feel !

Best of luck my friend ... Cheers to choices ! :drinker:

Again, since people are having a few issues reading correctly. In fact, I'll use CAPS so everyone can see.

A CALORIE IS A CALORIE IN TERMS OF WEIGHT LOSS.

This was the entire argument. Of course no one is going to eat nothing but chocolate bars all day, every day and not have health problems down the road, but that person will in fact lose fat AND muscle if he did as long as he ate a deficit...therefore LOSING WEIGHT. Tada!

Why oh why can't people READ and UNDERSTAND this!? I'll never know.

NeverGivesUp

I wish people would be a little less condescending.

earlyxer

Again, since people are having a few issues reading correctly. In fact, I'll use CAPS so everyone can see.

A CALORIE IS A CALORIE IN TERMS OF WEIGHT LOSS.

This was the entire argument. Of course no one is going to eat nothing but chocolate bars all day, every day and not have health problems down the road, but that person will in fact lose fat AND muscle if he did as long as he ate a deficit...therefore LOSING WEIGHT. Tada!

Why oh why can't people READ and UNDERSTAND this!? I'll never know.

Because a calorie is not a calorie in terms of weight loss - carbohydrate, fat and protein calories are indeed equal by definition in terms of their energy content, but the body processes each in a distinct way, and these differences have real implications for weight management.

More energy is required to process protein than carbs, and more energy is required to process carbs than fat. What this means effectively is that a 2,500-calories-a-day high-protein diet adds fewer calories to the body than a 2,500-calories-a-day high-carb diet, which in turn adds fewer calories to the body than a 2,500-calories-a-day high-fat diet.


http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/nutrition/a-calorie-is-not-a-calorie.aspx

joejccva71

I apologize in advance if people take anything I say as being rude.

joejccva71

Again, since people are having a few issues reading correctly. In fact, I'll use CAPS so everyone can see.

A CALORIE IS A CALORIE IN TERMS OF WEIGHT LOSS.

This was the entire argument. Of course no one is going to eat nothing but chocolate bars all day, every day and not have health problems down the road, but that person will in fact lose fat AND muscle if he did as long as he ate a deficit...therefore LOSING WEIGHT. Tada!

Why oh why can't people READ and UNDERSTAND this!? I'll never know.

Because a calorie is not a calorie in terms of weight loss - carbohydrate, fat and protein calories are indeed equal by definition in terms of their energy content, but the body processes each in a distinct way, and these differences have real implications for weight management.

More energy is required to process protein than carbs, and more energy is required to process carbs than fat. What this means effectively is that a 2,500-calories-a-day high-protein diet adds fewer calories to the body than a 2,500-calories-a-day high-carb diet, which in turn adds fewer calories to the body than a 2,500-calories-a-day high-fat diet.

It does not matter if protein and carbs have a higher TEF when you calculate TDEE for the entire day or for the week. TEF is included in your TDEE. TDEE is composed of your BMR + TEF + NEAT + EAT. You still eat the deficit, you still lose the weight. If you don't track anything and don't know your TDEE or how much energy you burn in a day then one might say, "well maybe I shouldn't eat as much fat because since fat is 9 calories per gram, this might make me end up eating a surplus...I'll just stick with protein, carbs, and naturally occurring fats instead."

The argument is:

TDEE: 3000 calories
Calories Consumed: 2500 calories
Meals: Snickers Chocolate Bars

Will I lose weight still? The answer is: Yes.

Will I lose both fat and muscle? The answer is: Yes

Why will I also lose muscle? The answer is: Because you are not getting enough protein to retain the LBM.

Will I be healthy? The answer is: Probably not in the long run because of the lack of not only macronutrients,, but micronutrients as well.

chrisdavey

@chrisdavey didn't you tell me recently on my wall that you're leaning towards a lower carb approach, that you're getting better results for cutting doing that?

@sidesteal, i am just curious. You told me a while ago about your cutting diet. You said you'd hit maintenance once a week. The other days, what was your deficit? was a standard 20% deficit, or was it lower or what?

I missed the last 3 pages because I had to quote this but I'll go back.

I just ate 2 pop tarts, 500ml of ice cream & protein pancakes before bed. No, not low carb at the moment!

As I said man, hit minimum P&F and have an overall deficit for steady weight loss. Carbs are good for energy & gym performance but they're the least important of the 3 macros so when you want to cut cals it makes sense to me to take them from carbs first.

joejccva71

@chrisdavey didn't you tell me recently on my wall that you're leaning towards a lower carb approach, that you're getting better results for cutting doing that?

@sidesteal, i am just curious. You told me a while ago about your cutting diet. You said you'd hit maintenance once a week. The other days, what was your deficit? was a standard 20% deficit, or was it lower or what?

I missed the last 3 pages because I had to quote this but I'll go back.

I just ate 2 pop tarts, 500ml of ice cream & protein pancakes before bed. No, not low carb at the moment!

As I said man, hit minimum P&F and have an overall deficit for steady weight loss. Carbs are good for energy & gym performance but they're the least important of the 3 macros so when you want to cut cals it makes sense to me to take them from carbs first.

Bro can you take over this argument for me? I'm hungry and want to go eat ice cream and drink chocolate milk.

Thanks

wftiger

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html

Actually you can eat Twinkies all day and lose weight. Yes in terms of weight loss a calories is a calorie. Healthwise not as much.

Robin_Bin

A calorie is a calorie (a measure of energy), but just like a hundred pounds of feathers and a hundred pounds of bowling balls both have the same number of pounds... the effect of dropping them from above a crowd of people will probably be different.

A hundred calories of one food may be much more satisfying and/or more nutritious than one hundred calories of another food.

lisakyle_11

I believe that the body processes certain foods differently, so not all calories are the same.. as long as your putting healthy food into your body.. I stick to "michi's ladder", so pretty much veggies, fruit, lean protein (NO PORK FOR ME! body has freaked out every time I eat it, ever since I was little).. brown rice, sometimes i will eat wheat bread... although I do enjoy the sweets every now and then :-)

spot on what i believe.... right down to the no swine. :-)

taso42

Bump, so I know where to start reading from when I come back later. :laugh: