Ketone Bodies, the Brain, and Cancer - Low Carb
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Also, while the brain's own neurons thrive on ketone bodies, cancer cells are not equipped for a ketogenic environment. They do not have the mechanisms for breaking ketone bodies into usable fuel. To divide and grow, cancer cells need sugar. Without sugar, they fail to grow and divide, or they die off. As sugar is a carbohydrate and the ketogenic diet restricts carbohydrates, the ketogenic diet makes it difficult for cancer cells to function. A sugar free diet that does not limit the intake of carbohydrates and protein does not have the same effect on cancer cells, as both carbohydrates and protein can be converted into sugar. Fat, on the other hand, can only be converted into small amounts of sugar when the body breaks down a small component of fat called glycerol.
The first clinical trial testing of a ketogenic diet was conducted in Germany in 2007. The German hospital continues to recommend the diet for cancer patients with advanced cancer. In the initial trial, some patients died before the end of the trial, others went off the diet because of the prohibition of sweets. But all five patients who lasted till the end of the diet had positive outcomes. The cancer growth had either slowed down or stopped completely. In a couple of patients, the tumors shrunk. The doctors at the hospital continue to have very positive results in the treatment of advanced cancer.
Yah... I'm gonna say.......erm.... I don't buy the cancer bit.
Here's the deal... neurons can survive on ketones. Or, as you pointed out, there is always gluconeogenesis.
But cancer? The cancers in brain is almost always from glial cells. Glia are not neurons. They're support cells... and all of them can use alternative fuels. They're hardier than neurons. And while I'm not a cancer specialist, I'm pretty sure a cancer from glia is going to do just fine on ketones or glucose or whatever.
I don't have a problem with ketogenic diets.... well okay, that's not ENTIRELY true. I think they are unnecessarily restrictive and not a good way to go unless you're glucose intolerant for some reason... but hey, I can at least recognize that some people do really well on them. I can support that! Also, under some conditions, ketogenic diets might be beneficial for neurological disorders (see epilepsy, for example, and emerging evidence that they might help).
But let's not make ketogenic diets a panacea. They have their place... but... yah. I guess that's all I have to say about that :P0 -
Also, while the brain's own neurons thrive on ketone bodies, cancer cells are not equipped for a ketogenic environment. They do not have the mechanisms for breaking ketone bodies into usable fuel. To divide and grow, cancer cells need sugar. Without sugar, they fail to grow and divide, or they die off. As sugar is a carbohydrate and the ketogenic diet restricts carbohydrates, the ketogenic diet makes it difficult for cancer cells to function. A sugar free diet that does not limit the intake of carbohydrates and protein does not have the same effect on cancer cells, as both carbohydrates and protein can be converted into sugar. Fat, on the other hand, can only be converted into small amounts of sugar when the body breaks down a small component of fat called glycerol.
The first clinical trial testing of a ketogenic diet was conducted in Germany in 2007. The German hospital continues to recommend the diet for cancer patients with advanced cancer. In the initial trial, some patients died before the end of the trial, others went off the diet because of the prohibition of sweets. But all five patients who lasted till the end of the diet had positive outcomes. The cancer growth had either slowed down or stopped completely. In a couple of patients, the tumors shrunk. The doctors at the hospital continue to have very positive results in the treatment of advanced cancer.
Yah... I'm gonna say.......erm.... I don't buy the cancer bit.
Here's the deal... neurons can survive on ketones. Or, as you pointed out, there is always gluconeogenesis.
But cancer? The cancers in brain is almost always from glial cells. Glia are not neurons. They're support cells... and all of them can use alternative fuels. They're hardier than neurons. And while I'm not a cancer specialist, I'm pretty sure a cancer from glia is going to do just fine on ketones or glucose or whatever.
I don't have a problem with ketogenic diets.... well okay, that's not ENTIRELY true. I think they are unnecessarily restrictive and not a good way to go unless you're glucose intolerant for some reason... but hey, I can at least recognize that some people do really well on them. I can support that! Also, under some conditions, ketogenic diets might be beneficial for neurological disorders (see epilepsy, for example, and emerging evidence that they might help).
But let's not make ketogenic diets a panacea. They have their place... but... yah. I guess that's all I have to say about that :P
Oh... my bad. You weren't talking about just cancers in brain...
Hmmm.... well I suppose it's possible that other tumors might not do well on ketones. But that's really going to depend on what tissue the tumor is derived from. So a ketogenic diet might benefit some patients but not others. Of course, you're also going to have problems with keeping food down when you're on chemo.... so maybe not? I imagine it is going to vary from patient to patient.0 -
which would seem to go against your first statement that you don't need carbs for the brain.
perhaps he meant to say you don't need to EAT carbs for the brain, having pointed out a way in which they can be created to meet whatever needs there are that ketones can't supply.
There are no essential carbohydrates.0 -
Why are you so hung up on carbs? If you don't want to eat them ... don't. Go out and get some exercise. I guarantee you THAT will not make you fat. Hee! Hee!
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Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.
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You really should define a carb. Are we talking complex or refined? Technically, veggies are carbs as well as fruits. If we are talking refined sugar i dont think you will get much push back but if you suggest reducing veggies and fruits as well i would just laugh. Also there has been plenty of studies that say low carb diets dont provide any additional benefit for weight loss over an extended period of time.
Carbs are the quickest source of energy so why not eat them unless you have an inolerance to them.0 -
From Perfect Health Diet, Sep 2011:
"Since we wrote our book, we’ve become a bit less excited about the therapeutic potential of ketogenic diets.
Ketogenic diets have demonstrated effectiveness in brain cancers, and several considerations suggest that they would be helpful against all cancers:
Cancer cells are dependent on glucose metabolism, a phenomenon called the Warburg effect. In ketosis, blood glucose levels can be decreased – a fall from 90 to 65 mg/dl is achievable – and reduced glucose availability should retard cancer growth.
Mitochondria do well on ketones, and some studies had shown that provision of ketones can restore the ability of mitochondria to trigger apoptosis, or the programmed cell death of cancer cells.
It’s too early to judge, but a few scraps of data published recently have made ketogenic diets seem a bit less exciting then hoped.
First, the group of Michael Lisanti has published work suggesting that tumors can evade the metabolic restrictions of a ketogenic diet by manipulating neighboring normal cells. The idea (here is an overview) is that cancer cells release hydrogen peroxide, which causes a stress response in neighboring cells, stimulating them to release lactic acid, which the cancer cells can metabolize. This process can happen nearly as well on a ketogenic as on a normal diet, so the effectiveness of a ketogenic diet in starving the cancer cells is reduced.
The Lisanti group results are hardly conclusive – indeed so far as I know no other group has supported their claims – and there are plenty of skeptics."
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=4739
Go take a read at the link if interested, a lot more information.0 -
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Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.
While this is true, being insulin resistant, I was spiking my insulin EVERY TIME I ATE before cutting down the carbs, inturn making me MORE insulin resistant and eventually probably would have led to type 2 diabetes. Instead, I'll spike my insulin every few days or once a week, not multiple times a day.0 -
Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.
While this is true, being insulin resistant, I was spiking my insulin EVERY TIME I ATE before cutting down the carbs, inturn making me MORE insulin resistant and eventually probably would have led to type 2 diabetes. Instead, I'll spike my insulin every few days or once a week, not multiple times a day.
So you only eat protein a few days a week to once a week?0 -
Most important thing in what you said was "First clinical trail", the medical industry tends to contradict itself on a regular basis, a study is not a study unless it is over 5,000 patients, multi-center and randomized study. You can get a study to say what your hypothosis is very easily when you have one center, and a small patient base. Yesterday eggs were bad, now they are good, today carbs are bad, this too will pass.
My mom has stage 4a (advanced) ovarian cancer, she has tried every diet under the sun to complement her chemo and none of them affect her cancer one way or another.0 -
Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.
While this is true, being insulin resistant, I was spiking my insulin EVERY TIME I ATE before cutting down the carbs, inturn making me MORE insulin resistant and eventually probably would have led to type 2 diabetes. Instead, I'll spike my insulin every few days or once a week, not multiple times a day.
So you only eat protein a few days a week to once a week?
Ahh, yes. Protein does cause insulin spikes (which is still an important hormone). I've just confused the insulin spike with a glucose spike.
"The fact is that rapid insulin spikes in and of themselves are not a bad thing. Protein causes rapid insulin spikes, yet protein reduces appetite and helps with weight loss.... The problem is that people confuse insulin spikes and blood glucose spikes. It is well established that rapid rises and falls in blood glucose can contribute to hunger. Because rapid rises in blood glucose also cause rapid rises in insulin, people end up blaming insulin (and the effects of high glycemic carbohydrates on insulin) for the problem."
(http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=459 - see site for references, they're hyperlinked)0 -
I didn't twist any words, I only went by what you posted. So you stated glucose was a carbohydrate and that parts of the brain need glucose, which would seem to go against your first statement that you don't need carbs for the brain.
Oh so he failed to put the word "consume" in there, as in consume carbs. LMAO I think you enjoy arguing. :yawn:0 -
Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.
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And on the same token the experts say you cannot build muscle on a high carb / low calorie diet as well, so what is your point?
Studies have shown also that a ketogenic diet actually has a better muscle sparing effect than a high carb low calorie diet does.0 -
Studies have shown also that a ketogenic diet actually has a better muscle sparing effect than a high carb low calorie diet does.
That's not a factor of ketones as much as it's a factor of meeting protein requirements for synthesis. EDIT: In other words, if you're going high carb and low calorie, you're not going to meet protein minimums and body composition would suffer compared to a diet that meets protein sufficiency.0 -
Studies have shown also that a ketogenic diet actually has a better muscle sparing effect than a high carb low calorie diet does.
That's not a factor of ketones as much as it's a factor of meeting protein requirements for synthesis. EDIT: In other words, if you're going high carb and low calorie, you're not going to meet protein minimums and body composition would suffer compared to a diet that meets protein sufficiency.
True. But I lumped it into the whole Keto diet, because usually you consume lots of protein on that certain diet. But you are right, it is the protein.0 -
cell (including cancer cells) mitosis requires amino acids, does that mean carbs AND protein should be cut out????
the fact that some of the test subjects died might be a giveaway lol
going to enjoy my snickers now
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cell (including cancer cells) mitosis requires amino acids, does that mean carbs AND protein should be cut out????
the fact that some of the test subjects died might be a giveaway lol
going to enjoy my snickers now
Make it a king size snickers for yourself at 510 calories. I'll stay with my grilled 10 ounce New York Strip at 490 calories.0 -
cell (including cancer cells) mitosis requires amino acids, does that mean carbs AND protein should be cut out????
Seeing that cancer cells divide and spread by sugar, and with the absence of sugar they cannot do this, I would say it should not matter what your amino acids do when it comes to this certain subject.0 -
You really should define a carb. Are we talking complex or refined? Technically, veggies are carbs as well as fruits. If we are talking refined sugar i dont think you will get much push back but if you suggest reducing veggies and fruits as well i would just laugh. Also there has been plenty of studies that say low carb diets dont provide any additional benefit for weight loss over an extended period of time.
Carbs are the quickest source of energy so why not eat them unless you have an inolerance to them.
Right on. Well...except for the weight loss part.
Ever heard of Ketoacidosis? It kills people. You don't need carbs from grains and breads, you DO need it from vegetables...along with the millions of other vitamins, minerals and bio active compounds that keep you functioning....is that what you meant?0 -
Ever heard of Ketoacidosis? It kills people. You don't need carbs from grains and breads, you DO need it from vegetables...along with the millions of other vitamins, minerals and bio active compounds that keep you functioning....is that what you meant?
Ketoacidosis is dangerous for people having type II diabetes and a malfunctioning liver (It has to do with Insulin again). A normal healthy individual doesn't get Ketoacidosis. As for "Do need", no you do not "need" to consume carbs, however, in the form of fruits and veggies, it is certainly more flavorful.
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Ever heard of Ketoacidosis? It kills people. You don't need carbs from grains and breads, you DO need it from vegetables...along with the millions of other vitamins, minerals and bio active compounds that keep you functioning....is that what you meant?
Ketoacidosis is dangerous for people having type II diabetes and a malfunctioning liver (It has to do with Insulin again). A normal healthy individual doesn't get Ketoacidosis. As for "Do need", no you do not "need" to consume carbs, however, in the form of fruits and veggies, it is certainly more flavorful.
Respectfully, that's not true. Type 1 or type 2 diabetes and it's rare but very possible in non-diabetics.0 -
. Also there has been plenty of studies that say low carb diets dont provide any additional benefit for weight loss over an extended period of time.Right on. Well...except for the weight loss part.
And which part of his statement about weight loss was incorrect?0 -
. Also there has been plenty of studies that say low carb diets dont provide any additional benefit for weight loss over an extended period of time.Right on. Well...except for the weight loss part.
And which part of his statement about weight loss was incorrect?
My bad, I thought he said they do.0 -
cell (including cancer cells) mitosis requires amino acids, does that mean carbs AND protein should be cut out????
Seeing that cancer cells divide and spread by sugar, and with the absence of sugar they cannot do this, I would say it should not matter what your amino acids do when it comes to this certain subject.
The energetic currency of ALL cells is sugar, if by sugar you mean glucose. Glucose provides the energy for all cellular processes - not just growth and division but all the regular stuff cells do too. Cancer cells, in very, very lay terms, spend a lot of their energy growing and dividing, and depriving them of energy slows this process, as it does will all cells. 'Sugar' is not some specific special fuel source only for cancer cells.
The body either makes glucose from cleaving complex carbohydrates down into single glucoses, or glucose is made anew from non-carbohydrate sources. Not eating carbs will not prevent your body making the necessary glucose to fuel your organs, nor will it magically stop cancer cells from finding their own share of the glucose produced by your body.
For people who's blood is overly saturated with glucose (i.e., diabetics), from whatever source, reducing carb intake can have a beneficial effect on blood sugar. The process by which more or less carbohydrate intake *may* or *may not* contribute to the growth and spread of cancer, however, are not clear.0 -
Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.
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Remind me never to use a professional trainer that says pop tarts are healthy and that you can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. I've built a bunch of muscle on a ketogenic diet for 9 months. I also have a net weight loss of 45 pounds and haven't eaten a pop tart.0 -
Cutting out whole food groups deprives the body of necessary nutrition. No food group is bad for you.
What is bad is eating too much of any food. Very simply: Eat less, move more and you will lose weight in a healthy way. You don't have to cut out anything.
Low carb is not no carb... So what "necessary nutrition" are you depriving the body?0 -
Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Really?0 -
cell (including cancer cells) mitosis requires amino acids, does that mean carbs AND protein should be cut out????
Seeing that cancer cells divide and spread by sugar, and with the absence of sugar they cannot do this, I would say it should not matter what your amino acids do when it comes to this certain subject.
Except that your body makes sugar (glucose) from amino acids once your glycogen stores are depleted even if you eat no sugar, so you still have circulating blood glucose.0 -
Clinical study says NO. Never said Poptarts are "healthy" (find me quoting that). I stated that you could eat Poptarts and STILL BE HEALTHY. Don't hate because it doesn't work for you.Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Remind me never to use a professional trainer that says pop tarts are healthy and that you can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. I've built a bunch of muscle on a ketogenic diet for 9 months. I also have a net weight loss of 45 pounds and haven't eaten a pop tart.
Oh and here's the study. If you have something to refute it please post it:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/578951-ketogenic-diets-not-good-for-muscle-building?hl=ketogenic+diet+not+good#posts-8235696
Always good to know that there are people who read and comprehend what they want to believe.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0
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