Ketone Bodies, the Brain, and Cancer - Low Carb

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  • timetogetskinny1
    timetogetskinny1 Posts: 9
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    Most important thing in what you said was "First clinical trail", the medical industry tends to contradict itself on a regular basis, a study is not a study unless it is over 5,000 patients, multi-center and randomized study. You can get a study to say what your hypothosis is very easily when you have one center, and a small patient base. Yesterday eggs were bad, now they are good, today carbs are bad, this too will pass.

    My mom has stage 4a (advanced) ovarian cancer, she has tried every diet under the sun to complement her chemo and none of them affect her cancer one way or another.
  • shar140
    shar140 Posts: 1,158 Member
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    Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.

    While this is true, being insulin resistant, I was spiking my insulin EVERY TIME I ATE before cutting down the carbs, inturn making me MORE insulin resistant and eventually probably would have led to type 2 diabetes. Instead, I'll spike my insulin every few days or once a week, not multiple times a day.

    So you only eat protein a few days a week to once a week?

    Ahh, yes. Protein does cause insulin spikes (which is still an important hormone). I've just confused the insulin spike with a glucose spike.
    "The fact is that rapid insulin spikes in and of themselves are not a bad thing. Protein causes rapid insulin spikes, yet protein reduces appetite and helps with weight loss.... The problem is that people confuse insulin spikes and blood glucose spikes. It is well established that rapid rises and falls in blood glucose can contribute to hunger. Because rapid rises in blood glucose also cause rapid rises in insulin, people end up blaming insulin (and the effects of high glycemic carbohydrates on insulin) for the problem."
    (http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=459 - see site for references, they're hyperlinked)
  • 10KEyes
    10KEyes Posts: 250 Member
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    I didn't twist any words, I only went by what you posted. So you stated glucose was a carbohydrate and that parts of the brain need glucose, which would seem to go against your first statement that you don't need carbs for the brain.

    Oh so he failed to put the word "consume" in there, as in consume carbs. LMAO I think you enjoy arguing. :yawn:
  • DB_1106
    DB_1106 Posts: 154 Member
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    Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    And on the same token the experts say you cannot build muscle on a high carb / low calorie diet as well, so what is your point?

    Studies have shown also that a ketogenic diet actually has a better muscle sparing effect than a high carb low calorie diet does.
  • Sidesteal
    Sidesteal Posts: 5,510 Member
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    Studies have shown also that a ketogenic diet actually has a better muscle sparing effect than a high carb low calorie diet does.

    That's not a factor of ketones as much as it's a factor of meeting protein requirements for synthesis. EDIT: In other words, if you're going high carb and low calorie, you're not going to meet protein minimums and body composition would suffer compared to a diet that meets protein sufficiency.
  • DB_1106
    DB_1106 Posts: 154 Member
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    Studies have shown also that a ketogenic diet actually has a better muscle sparing effect than a high carb low calorie diet does.

    That's not a factor of ketones as much as it's a factor of meeting protein requirements for synthesis. EDIT: In other words, if you're going high carb and low calorie, you're not going to meet protein minimums and body composition would suffer compared to a diet that meets protein sufficiency.

    True. But I lumped it into the whole Keto diet, because usually you consume lots of protein on that certain diet. But you are right, it is the protein.
  • 3laine75
    3laine75 Posts: 3,070 Member
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    cell (including cancer cells) mitosis requires amino acids, does that mean carbs AND protein should be cut out????

    the fact that some of the test subjects died might be a giveaway lol

    going to enjoy my snickers now :D
  • DB_1106
    DB_1106 Posts: 154 Member
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    cell (including cancer cells) mitosis requires amino acids, does that mean carbs AND protein should be cut out????

    the fact that some of the test subjects died might be a giveaway lol

    going to enjoy my snickers now :D

    Make it a king size snickers for yourself at 510 calories. I'll stay with my grilled 10 ounce New York Strip at 490 calories.
  • DB_1106
    DB_1106 Posts: 154 Member
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    cell (including cancer cells) mitosis requires amino acids, does that mean carbs AND protein should be cut out????

    Seeing that cancer cells divide and spread by sugar, and with the absence of sugar they cannot do this, I would say it should not matter what your amino acids do when it comes to this certain subject.
  • skydivelife
    skydivelife Posts: 83 Member
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    You really should define a carb. Are we talking complex or refined? Technically, veggies are carbs as well as fruits. If we are talking refined sugar i dont think you will get much push back but if you suggest reducing veggies and fruits as well i would just laugh. Also there has been plenty of studies that say low carb diets dont provide any additional benefit for weight loss over an extended period of time.


    Carbs are the quickest source of energy so why not eat them unless you have an inolerance to them.


    Right on. Well...except for the weight loss part.

    Ever heard of Ketoacidosis? It kills people. You don't need carbs from grains and breads, you DO need it from vegetables...along with the millions of other vitamins, minerals and bio active compounds that keep you functioning....is that what you meant?
  • 10KEyes
    10KEyes Posts: 250 Member
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    Ever heard of Ketoacidosis? It kills people. You don't need carbs from grains and breads, you DO need it from vegetables...along with the millions of other vitamins, minerals and bio active compounds that keep you functioning....is that what you meant?

    Ketoacidosis is dangerous for people having type II diabetes and a malfunctioning liver (It has to do with Insulin again). A normal healthy individual doesn't get Ketoacidosis. As for "Do need", no you do not "need" to consume carbs, however, in the form of fruits and veggies, it is certainly more flavorful. ;)
  • skydivelife
    skydivelife Posts: 83 Member
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    Ever heard of Ketoacidosis? It kills people. You don't need carbs from grains and breads, you DO need it from vegetables...along with the millions of other vitamins, minerals and bio active compounds that keep you functioning....is that what you meant?

    Ketoacidosis is dangerous for people having type II diabetes and a malfunctioning liver (It has to do with Insulin again). A normal healthy individual doesn't get Ketoacidosis. As for "Do need", no you do not "need" to consume carbs, however, in the form of fruits and veggies, it is certainly more flavorful. ;)

    Respectfully, that's not true. Type 1 or type 2 diabetes and it's rare but very possible in non-diabetics.
  • Sidesteal
    Sidesteal Posts: 5,510 Member
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    . Also there has been plenty of studies that say low carb diets dont provide any additional benefit for weight loss over an extended period of time.
    Right on. Well...except for the weight loss part.

    And which part of his statement about weight loss was incorrect?
  • skydivelife
    skydivelife Posts: 83 Member
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    . Also there has been plenty of studies that say low carb diets dont provide any additional benefit for weight loss over an extended period of time.
    Right on. Well...except for the weight loss part.

    And which part of his statement about weight loss was incorrect?

    My bad, I thought he said they do.
  • RobynC79
    RobynC79 Posts: 331 Member
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    cell (including cancer cells) mitosis requires amino acids, does that mean carbs AND protein should be cut out????

    Seeing that cancer cells divide and spread by sugar, and with the absence of sugar they cannot do this, I would say it should not matter what your amino acids do when it comes to this certain subject.

    The energetic currency of ALL cells is sugar, if by sugar you mean glucose. Glucose provides the energy for all cellular processes - not just growth and division but all the regular stuff cells do too. Cancer cells, in very, very lay terms, spend a lot of their energy growing and dividing, and depriving them of energy slows this process, as it does will all cells. 'Sugar' is not some specific special fuel source only for cancer cells.

    The body either makes glucose from cleaving complex carbohydrates down into single glucoses, or glucose is made anew from non-carbohydrate sources. Not eating carbs will not prevent your body making the necessary glucose to fuel your organs, nor will it magically stop cancer cells from finding their own share of the glucose produced by your body.

    For people who's blood is overly saturated with glucose (i.e., diabetics), from whatever source, reducing carb intake can have a beneficial effect on blood sugar. The process by which more or less carbohydrate intake *may* or *may not* contribute to the growth and spread of cancer, however, are not clear.
  • bacitracin
    bacitracin Posts: 921 Member
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    Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    Remind me never to use a professional trainer that says pop tarts are healthy and that you can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. I've built a bunch of muscle on a ketogenic diet for 9 months. I also have a net weight loss of 45 pounds and haven't eaten a pop tart.
  • Chood5
    Chood5 Posts: 259 Member
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    Cutting out whole food groups deprives the body of necessary nutrition. No food group is bad for you.

    What is bad is eating too much of any food. Very simply: Eat less, move more and you will lose weight in a healthy way. You don't have to cut out anything.

    Low carb is not no carb... So what "necessary nutrition" are you depriving the body?
  • Chood5
    Chood5 Posts: 259 Member
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    Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    Really?
  • kalynn06
    kalynn06 Posts: 368 Member
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    cell (including cancer cells) mitosis requires amino acids, does that mean carbs AND protein should be cut out????

    Seeing that cancer cells divide and spread by sugar, and with the absence of sugar they cannot do this, I would say it should not matter what your amino acids do when it comes to this certain subject.

    Except that your body makes sugar (glucose) from amino acids once your glycogen stores are depleted even if you eat no sugar, so you still have circulating blood glucose.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,692 Member
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    Can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. You need insulin spikes for that. That pretty much sums it up for me.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    Remind me never to use a professional trainer that says pop tarts are healthy and that you can't build muscle on a ketogenic diet. I've built a bunch of muscle on a ketogenic diet for 9 months. I also have a net weight loss of 45 pounds and haven't eaten a pop tart.
    Clinical study says NO. Never said Poptarts are "healthy" (find me quoting that). I stated that you could eat Poptarts and STILL BE HEALTHY. Don't hate because it doesn't work for you.
    Oh and here's the study. If you have something to refute it please post it:

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/578951-ketogenic-diets-not-good-for-muscle-building?hl=ketogenic+diet+not+good#posts-8235696

    Always good to know that there are people who read and comprehend what they want to believe.


    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

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