How much muscle can you gain in a calorie deficit?

Awkward30

I know that the answer is "not much" but I was wondering if anyone had any numbers they pulled from anywhere other than their *kitten*? I just bought calipers, and pre that, I had been using circumference methods to calculate recomp. My data from my circumference measurements:

Date / . / . / . / Weight / . / . / . / BF% / . / . / . / LBM
12/30/2011 / . / . / . / 153 / . / . / . / 26.3 / . / . / . / 112.76
2/22/2012 / . / . / . / 145.6 / . / . / . / 23.2 / . / . / . / 111.36
4/7/2012 / . / . / . / 143.6 / . / . / . / 21.8 / . / . / . / 111.83
5/10/2012 / . / . / . / 142.4 / . / . / . / 20.8 / . / . / . / 112.46

So according to this, when I was training for a half marathon at the beginning of the year, and completely inconsistent with weight training, I lost a pound of lean mass, but then by being better about eating more protein and strength training more regularly, I put back on that pound of muscle in the course of a few months. The numbers that I've seen basically say a genetically blessed male in a calorie surplus can put on 0.5-1 lb of muscle, and a woman about half that, so in a modest and inconsistent calorie deficit (as in, I go over a lot and eat at maintenance when I'm hungry) it seems plausible that I could put on a pound of muscle in 2 and a half months while losing 4 pounds of fat?

thistimeismytime

I know that the answer is "not much" but I was wondering if anyone had any numbers they pulled from anywhere other than their *kitten*? I just bought calipers, and pre that, I had been using circumference methods to calculate recomp. My data from my circumference measurements:

Date / . / . / . / Weight / . / . / . / BF% / . / . / . / LBM
12/30/2011 / . / . / . / 153 / . / . / . / 26.3 / . / . / . / 112.76
2/22/2012 / . / . / . / 145.6 / . / . / . / 23.2 / . / . / . / 111.36
4/7/2012 / . / . / . / 143.6 / . / . / . / 21.8 / . / . / . / 111.83
5/10/2012 / . / . / . / 142.4 / . / . / . / 20.8 / . / . / . / 112.46

So according to this, when I was training for a half marathon at the beginning of the year, and completely inconsistent with weight training, I lost a pound of lean mass, but then by being better about eating more protein and strength training more regularly, I put back on that pound of muscle in the course of a few months. The numbers that I've seen basically say a genetically blessed male in a calorie surplus can put on 0.5-1 lb of muscle, and a woman about half that, so in a modest and inconsistent calorie deficit (as in, I go over a lot and eat at maintenance when I'm hungry) it seems plausible that I could put on a pound of muscle in 2 and a half months while losing 4 pounds of fat?

The research I've done on this (all on the internet to be clear) leads me to believe you cannot gain muscle MASS on a calorie deficit. I want so badly for this not to be true, so someone PLEASE prove me wrong!! Seriously!! I've lost 9% bodyfat in the last 4 months (23 lbs), and I've worked with heavy weights 5x/week, as well as getting adequate protein.....but according to the last caliper test I had done, my LBM is EXACTLY the same as when I started. I do LOOK quite a bit more muscular (you could check my profile for my 'Before" pics), but anyway, that's what has happened with me. From what I've read, you have to do this in phases..."Cutting" to get rid of fat, and then "bulking" to gain muscle mass. During "cutting" you eat at a deficit, and then to "bulk" you have to eat at a surplus. I'm curious to see other opinions, or if anyone has links to credible research about this.

waldo56

IF and Leangains principles do work.

The biggest thing is that you need to take advantage of the fact that your body is most efficient at muscle building and repair while asleep and most efficient at fat burning while awake and exercising, and time your eating and exercise accordingly.

Go to bed stuffed, with a lot of protein available, exercise starved, after many hours of not eating. If you don't truly IF, it helps to do a little exercise after other food intake times to burn off much of the sugar/glycogen, so that you spend as long as possible each day burning stored fat, ideally slightly more than you took in the night before when cutting and exactly the same amount when maintaining.

Awkward30

IF and Leangains principles do work.

The biggest thing is that you need to take advantage of the fact that your body is most efficient at muscle building and repair while asleep and most efficient at fat burning while awake and exercising, and time your eating and exercise accordingly.

Go to bed stuffed, with a lot of protein available, exercise starved, after many hours of not eating. If you don't truly IF, it helps to do a little exercise after other food intake times to burn off much of the sugar/glycogen, so that you spend as long as possible each day burning stored fat, ideally slightly more than you took in the night before when cutting and exactly the same amount when maintaining.

I am completely unwilling to fast for any longer than I sleep :P but I do think that I naturally somewhat cycle calories in that I tend to eat more on days I lift and eat less when I don't.

Also, shamelessly bumping

Acg67

.371892 lbs per week

phinphanbill26

Award,

Hit the proteins hard. The weight-lifting will increase muscle size, but won't necessarily reduce fat deposits. What are you doing between sets? Try doing jumping jacks for a minute between sets (you may have to reduce the amount of weight). You will continue to build muscle, but also reduce fat (which will show better when checking with calipers).

thistimeismytime

IF and Leangains principles do work.

The biggest thing is that you need to take advantage of the fact that your body is most efficient at muscle building and repair while asleep and most efficient at fat burning while awake and exercising, and time your eating and exercise accordingly.

Go to bed stuffed, with a lot of protein available, exercise starved, after many hours of not eating. If you don't truly IF, it helps to do a little exercise after other food intake times to burn off much of the sugar/glycogen, so that you spend as long as possible each day burning stored fat, ideally slightly more than you took in the night before when cutting and exactly the same amount when maintaining.

Is there any evidence or research that you can gain muscle on a caloric deficit living like this?? Honestly, I'd never do it anyway, because it just sounds miserable to me. "Go to bed stuffed", and "exercise starved"----I'd never be able to sleep if I was stuffed, and I'd get a sub-standard workout if I was starved. It wouldn't be worth it to me. Still waiting on some research...Anyone????

wellbert

The only way to find out for sure is to get an MRI at each step of progress.

secretlobster

How are you measuring your BF%?

Awkward30

.371892 lbs per week

Since I requested no numbers pulled from an *kitten*, did you pull that from your ABS?

See what I did there?

erickirb

You will gain some initially "begginers gains" but no more than a few pounds, and if you stay in a deficit for an extended period you will probably end up losing what you gained anyway, as you tend to lose lean muscle and fat in a caloric deficit.

To minimize muscle loss while in a deficit make sure your deficit is small (250cals/day 0.5lb/week loss goal) and aim for a minimum of 1 gram of protein per pound of lean body mass (or 0.7-0.8 grams per lb of goal weight if you don't know your BF%). On top of protein intake you will want to take part in a heavy lifting strength training program and take it easy on the cardio, as the energy used in cardio could be doing to building/repairing your muscles.

OP: you can increase LBM as some of LBM is water, and by working out your bone density can increase as well, but neither of those are muscle gains.

smlamb33

I am also interested in this!

waldo56

IF and Leangains principles do work.

The biggest thing is that you need to take advantage of the fact that your body is most efficient at muscle building and repair while asleep and most efficient at fat burning while awake and exercising, and time your eating and exercise accordingly.

Go to bed stuffed, with a lot of protein available, exercise starved, after many hours of not eating. If you don't truly IF, it helps to do a little exercise after other food intake times to burn off much of the sugar/glycogen, so that you spend as long as possible each day burning stored fat, ideally slightly more than you took in the night before when cutting and exactly the same amount when maintaining.

Is there any evidence or research that you can gain muscle on a caloric deficit living like this?? Honestly, I'd never do it anyway, because it just sounds miserable to me. "Go to bed stuffed", and "exercise starved"----I'd never be able to sleep if I was stuffed, and I'd get a sub-standard workout if I was starved. It wouldn't be worth it to me. Still waiting on some research...Anyone????

Google is your friend.

Curious why you think athletic performance would suffer in the face of hunger, unless you don't believe in evolution? If anything it should improve (I work out much, much better when fasted). Declining athletic performance in the face of short term hunger (not long term starvation) is pretty much monther nature giving you the finger, or merely a product of yoru psyche.

Obviously you are going to lose a lot slower than someone that is truly cutting, and gain much slower than somebody bulking, so it isn't an efficient process, but it basically changes the bulking/cutting cycling from months to day to day.

PercivalHackworth

I confirm what my peep said, you techincally can't, you just lose more fat, making muscles more visible. The only thing you could do is eating over maintenance during training days, and cut during rest days; the only thing you can do is to maintain BF. But no secrets, muscles synthesis requires amounts of calories. Technically, you can't really

season1980

IF and Leangains principles do work.

The biggest thing is that you need to take advantage of the fact that your body is most efficient at muscle building and repair while asleep and most efficient at fat burning while awake and exercising, and time your eating and exercise accordingly.

Go to bed stuffed, with a lot of protein available, exercise starved, after many hours of not eating. If you don't truly IF, it helps to do a little exercise after other food intake times to burn off much of the sugar/glycogen, so that you spend as long as possible each day burning stored fat, ideally slightly more than you took in the night before when cutting and exactly the same amount when maintaining.

The founder of leangains.com had done tons of research and quotes all of his reasearch in his articles on his website including the tons of success stories he has on thier from his clients. Everything on his website is free though and is really interesting. He even goes down to the level of nutrient partitioning and exercising while fasting etc etc etc.....so the Leangains method has the research for the backing. There was also a doctor that works for Precision nutrition I believe that conducted his own "study" on himself using the various IF protocols, he actually had to stop the leangains protocol early if I remember correctly because he was gaining to much muscle mass! (he was training for a marathon) I will try to find the link to that ebook. But jump on Leangains.com he has several protocols and the fasting recommendation is 16 hours fasted, 8 fed which for alot of people is very doable. That being said.....I still like to eat my breakfast ; }

Is there any evidence or research that you can gain muscle on a caloric deficit living like this?? Honestly, I'd never do it anyway, because it just sounds miserable to me. "Go to bed stuffed", and "exercise starved"----I'd never be able to sleep if I was stuffed, and I'd get a sub-standard workout if I was starved. It wouldn't be worth it to me. Still waiting on some research...Anyone????

joejccva71

You can gain newbie gains from being a beginner as well as get some gains if you are returning to lifting after a long break. Otherwise you need to eat a calorie surplus to build new muscle tissue. Also women gain muscle (on a surplus) at about half the rate that men do. You cannot grow without energy. You cannot grow without more energy input than output.

MoreBean13

This isn't going to be an answer you like, but the circumference methods are not that accurate, and you're talking about less than 1% of lean body mass. I think that's within the margin of error and probably statistically insignificant. BUT, I think the method does show trends if not actual pounds of LBM, and what you're showing is that you're doing the right things to not lose muscle mass when you look at the numbers since December. Excellent work!

MyTime1985

Bump

DrMAvDPhD

Calipers can have up to 8% error, so +/- 13 lb here. Signicant figures!

PS Please don't hate on the science geek lurking on your athlete forums.

SheehyCFC

This isn't going to be an answer you like, but the circumference methods are not that accurate, and you're talking about less than 1% of lean body mass. I think that's within the margin of error and probably statistically insignificant. BUT, I think the method does show trends if not actual pounds of LBM, and what you're showing is that you're doing the right things to not lose muscle mass when you look at the numbers since December. Excellent work!

^ Completely agree. Realize that you are doing the right things, and keep it up. If/when you want to GAIN that muscle mass, you can adjust to a caloric surplus

Acg67

.371892 lbs per week

Since I requested no numbers pulled from an *kitten*, did you pull that from your ABS?

See what I did there?

All numbers will be about as accurate as mine, seeing as you asked a very vague question that would depended on a multitude of factors such as diet, bf%, training regimen, training experience, genetics, supplementation etc

rchupka87

Bump

Awkward30

Calipers can have up to 8% error, so +/- 13 lb here. Signicant figures!

PS Please don't hate on the science geek lurking on your athlete forums.

I'm a science geek too, using my pubmed to try to find actual data on muscle gain... but apparently people don't really study this well. I mean, I guess it makes sense that there is far more literature on weight loss than muscle gain, but damnit I hate it when pubmed can't give me what I want.

waldo56

This isn't going to be an answer you like, but the circumference methods are not that accurate, and you're talking about less than 1% of lean body mass. I think that's within the margin of error and probably statistically insignificant. BUT, I think the method does show trends if not actual pounds of LBM, and what you're showing is that you're doing the right things to not lose muscle mass when you look at the numbers since December. Excellent work!

The cicumference methods have a lot of relative accuracy while having poor ultimate accuracy. Since the subject, you, doesn't change that much, as long as your measurement methodology is good, if it says you gained 2 lbs of LBM in the last 2 months it is one of the more accuate measures. If it says your LBM is 170 lbs, it is one of the least accutate methods (for many people, for some one of the equations is right on).

For most people's purposes less relative error is preferrable to less ultimate error. Most measurement techniques are opposite, ultimate error is less than relative error. A single reading is more accuate than the amount of change between the readings. Circumference measures do have an advantage in this respect.

thistimeismytime

IF and Leangains principles do work.

The biggest thing is that you need to take advantage of the fact that your body is most efficient at muscle building and repair while asleep and most efficient at fat burning while awake and exercising, and time your eating and exercise accordingly.

Go to bed stuffed, with a lot of protein available, exercise starved, after many hours of not eating. If you don't truly IF, it helps to do a little exercise after other food intake times to burn off much of the sugar/glycogen, so that you spend as long as possible each day burning stored fat, ideally slightly more than you took in the night before when cutting and exactly the same amount when maintaining.

Is there any evidence or research that you can gain muscle on a caloric deficit living like this?? Honestly, I'd never do it anyway, because it just sounds miserable to me. "Go to bed stuffed", and "exercise starved"----I'd never be able to sleep if I was stuffed, and I'd get a sub-standard workout if I was starved. It wouldn't be worth it to me. Still waiting on some research...Anyone????

Google is your friend.

Curious why you think athletic performance would suffer in the face of hunger, unless you don't believe in evolution? If anything it should improve (I work out much, much better when fasted). Declining athletic performance in the face of short term hunger (not long term starvation) is pretty much monther nature giving you the finger.

I was just speaking for myself--I'm not saying what other people would/should do...I just wouldn't be comfortable going to bed stuffed with a "food baby" every night, but if everyone else wants to, that's great! I really have no idea why mother nature would give me the finger, but hey, whatever. :drinker:

Actually, I have googled this topic extensively, and I already reported my basic findings in a previous post. I'm well aware that IF works for weight loss--that's really not the issue here though. I'm just wondering if there is ANY research anywhere to support the claim that you can BUILD muscle while eating at a caloric deficit, that's all! Because from what I've found it is impossible UNLESS you are very obese or taking steroids. I don't want to argue with anyone...to each their own. Just honestly looking for research---and shamelessly bumping this thread to see if anyone has found anything that I haven't. :smokin: So far, looks like me (and the OP) are going to strike out and just get an endless flood of opinions...:ohwell:

littlewitch1973

I recently went thru a period of 3 months with a trainer. We did the calipers at the start, and again at the end.

I ate about 1200 calories a day, and did not eat back my exercise calories most days.

During this time, I lost 20 pounds.

I actually lost 26 pounds of fat - which means, I gained 6 pounds of muscle. I lost about 6% of my body fat, according to her measurements.

I combined cardio and strength training - elliptical, running, lifting (I was weak when I started, and now can see and feel muscle) and doing the 30DS.

Not sure if this helps, but in my case, yes, I was able to have a serious calorie deficeit and still gain muscle. Waiting to see what the next 3 months will bring!!

ChristyP0303

Yes, you CAN gain muscle on a calorie deficit! My husband and I both have done so. I think it depends on how much weight you have to spare. I started out at 310 pounds. I had a lot of "calories" already stored that my body could use for this. As far as how much you can gain? IDK, I'd say I've probably gained at least 15 pounds or so over the last year. My husband gained more. I will say once he upped his calories to maintainence, he started gaining more rapidly.

goodwince

Like others have said caloric deficit on rest days to make up for workout days. I think of my caloric deficit on a weekly scale instead of daily. Even if you're not into fasting you can check out Lean Gains and pickup on the alternating of calories on workout vs. rest days. He's done quite a bit of research on best feeding windows for efficient recovery and muscle gain.

So yes, I think you can. I'm doing my first attempt at my own version based off of Lean Gains and intermittent fasting. Let you know in six-seven weeks? Won't know till you try!

psuLemon

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/447514-athletes-can-gain-muscle-while-losing-fat-on-deficit-diet

This is the ONLY shred of information I have ever seen about adding lean body mass on a caloric deficit.

psuLemon

Yes, you CAN gain muscle on a calorie deficit! My husband and I both have done so. I think it depends on how much weight you have to spare. I started out at 310 pounds. I had a lot of "calories" already stored that my body could use for this. As far as how much you can gain? IDK, I'd say I've probably gained at least 15 pounds or so over the last year. My husband gained more. I will say once he upped his calories to maintainence, he started gaining more rapidly.

How do you back up your claims? Because his muscles and yours became more visible? He became stronger? Did you have your bodies evaluated before and after?

MoreBean13

Yes, you CAN gain muscle on a calorie deficit! My husband and I both have done so. I think it depends on how much weight you have to spare. I started out at 310 pounds. I had a lot of "calories" already stored that my body could use for this. As far as how much you can gain? IDK, I'd say I've probably gained at least 15 pounds or so over the last year. My husband gained more. I will say once he upped his calories to maintainence, he started gaining more rapidly.

Woah. 15 lbs is a lot of muscle! How did you determine that?