How much muscle can you gain in a calorie deficit?

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  • rchupka87
    rchupka87 Posts: 543 Member
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    Bump
  • Awkward30
    Awkward30 Posts: 1,927 Member
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    Calipers can have up to 8% error, so +/- 13 lb here. Signicant figures!

    PS Please don't hate on the science geek lurking on your athlete forums.

    I'm a science geek too, using my pubmed to try to find actual data on muscle gain... but apparently people don't really study this well. I mean, I guess it makes sense that there is far more literature on weight loss than muscle gain, but damnit I hate it when pubmed can't give me what I want.
  • waldo56
    waldo56 Posts: 1,861 Member
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    This isn't going to be an answer you like, but the circumference methods are not that accurate, and you're talking about less than 1% of lean body mass. I think that's within the margin of error and probably statistically insignificant. BUT, I think the method does show trends if not actual pounds of LBM, and what you're showing is that you're doing the right things to not lose muscle mass when you look at the numbers since December. Excellent work!

    The cicumference methods have a lot of relative accuracy while having poor ultimate accuracy. Since the subject, you, doesn't change that much, as long as your measurement methodology is good, if it says you gained 2 lbs of LBM in the last 2 months it is one of the more accuate measures. If it says your LBM is 170 lbs, it is one of the least accutate methods (for many people, for some one of the equations is right on).

    For most people's purposes less relative error is preferrable to less ultimate error. Most measurement techniques are opposite, ultimate error is less than relative error. A single reading is more accuate than the amount of change between the readings. Circumference measures do have an advantage in this respect.
  • thistimeismytime
    thistimeismytime Posts: 711 Member
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    IF and Leangains principles do work.

    The biggest thing is that you need to take advantage of the fact that your body is most efficient at muscle building and repair while asleep and most efficient at fat burning while awake and exercising, and time your eating and exercise accordingly.

    Go to bed stuffed, with a lot of protein available, exercise starved, after many hours of not eating. If you don't truly IF, it helps to do a little exercise after other food intake times to burn off much of the sugar/glycogen, so that you spend as long as possible each day burning stored fat, ideally slightly more than you took in the night before when cutting and exactly the same amount when maintaining.

    Is there any evidence or research that you can gain muscle on a caloric deficit living like this?? Honestly, I'd never do it anyway, because it just sounds miserable to me. "Go to bed stuffed", and "exercise starved"----I'd never be able to sleep if I was stuffed, and I'd get a sub-standard workout if I was starved. It wouldn't be worth it to me. Still waiting on some research...Anyone????

    Google is your friend.

    Curious why you think athletic performance would suffer in the face of hunger, unless you don't believe in evolution? If anything it should improve (I work out much, much better when fasted). Declining athletic performance in the face of short term hunger (not long term starvation) is pretty much monther nature giving you the finger.

    I was just speaking for myself--I'm not saying what other people would/should do...I just wouldn't be comfortable going to bed stuffed with a "food baby" every night, but if everyone else wants to, that's great! I really have no idea why mother nature would give me the finger, but hey, whatever. :drinker:

    Actually, I have googled this topic extensively, and I already reported my basic findings in a previous post. I'm well aware that IF works for weight loss--that's really not the issue here though. I'm just wondering if there is ANY research anywhere to support the claim that you can BUILD muscle while eating at a caloric deficit, that's all! Because from what I've found it is impossible UNLESS you are very obese or taking steroids. I don't want to argue with anyone...to each their own. Just honestly looking for research---and shamelessly bumping this thread to see if anyone has found anything that I haven't. :smokin: So far, looks like me (and the OP) are going to strike out and just get an endless flood of opinions...:ohwell:
  • littlewitch1973
    littlewitch1973 Posts: 139
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    I recently went thru a period of 3 months with a trainer. We did the calipers at the start, and again at the end.

    I ate about 1200 calories a day, and did not eat back my exercise calories most days.

    During this time, I lost 20 pounds.

    I actually lost 26 pounds of fat - which means, I gained 6 pounds of muscle. I lost about 6% of my body fat, according to her measurements.

    I combined cardio and strength training - elliptical, running, lifting (I was weak when I started, and now can see and feel muscle) and doing the 30DS.

    Not sure if this helps, but in my case, yes, I was able to have a serious calorie deficeit and still gain muscle. Waiting to see what the next 3 months will bring!!
  • ChristyP0303
    ChristyP0303 Posts: 212 Member
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    Yes, you CAN gain muscle on a calorie deficit! My husband and I both have done so. I think it depends on how much weight you have to spare. I started out at 310 pounds. I had a lot of "calories" already stored that my body could use for this. As far as how much you can gain? IDK, I'd say I've probably gained at least 15 pounds or so over the last year. My husband gained more. I will say once he upped his calories to maintainence, he started gaining more rapidly.
  • goodwince
    goodwince Posts: 2
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    Like others have said caloric deficit on rest days to make up for workout days. I think of my caloric deficit on a weekly scale instead of daily. Even if you're not into fasting you can check out Lean Gains and pickup on the alternating of calories on workout vs. rest days. He's done quite a bit of research on best feeding windows for efficient recovery and muscle gain.

    So yes, I think you can. I'm doing my first attempt at my own version based off of Lean Gains and intermittent fasting. Let you know in six-seven weeks? Won't know till you try!
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,404 MFP Moderator
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    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/447514-athletes-can-gain-muscle-while-losing-fat-on-deficit-diet

    This is the ONLY shred of information I have ever seen about adding lean body mass on a caloric deficit.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,404 MFP Moderator
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    Yes, you CAN gain muscle on a calorie deficit! My husband and I both have done so. I think it depends on how much weight you have to spare. I started out at 310 pounds. I had a lot of "calories" already stored that my body could use for this. As far as how much you can gain? IDK, I'd say I've probably gained at least 15 pounds or so over the last year. My husband gained more. I will say once he upped his calories to maintainence, he started gaining more rapidly.

    How do you back up your claims? Because his muscles and yours became more visible? He became stronger? Did you have your bodies evaluated before and after?
  • MoreBean13
    MoreBean13 Posts: 8,701 Member
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    Yes, you CAN gain muscle on a calorie deficit! My husband and I both have done so. I think it depends on how much weight you have to spare. I started out at 310 pounds. I had a lot of "calories" already stored that my body could use for this. As far as how much you can gain? IDK, I'd say I've probably gained at least 15 pounds or so over the last year. My husband gained more. I will say once he upped his calories to maintainence, he started gaining more rapidly.

    Woah. 15 lbs is a lot of muscle! How did you determine that?
  • joejccva71
    joejccva71 Posts: 2,985 Member
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    Yes, you CAN gain muscle on a calorie deficit! My husband and I both have done so. I think it depends on how much weight you have to spare. I started out at 310 pounds. I had a lot of "calories" already stored that my body could use for this. As far as how much you can gain? IDK, I'd say I've probably gained at least 15 pounds or so over the last year. My husband gained more. I will say once he upped his calories to maintainence, he started gaining more rapidly.

    You were morbidly obese and used fat stores as calories to make MINIMAL gains but you didn't gain 15lbs of lean muscle mass in a year. Women can barely do that on a calorie surplus.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,404 MFP Moderator
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    I recently went thru a period of 3 months with a trainer. We did the calipers at the start, and again at the end.

    I ate about 1200 calories a day, and did not eat back my exercise calories most days.

    During this time, I lost 20 pounds.

    I actually lost 26 pounds of fat - which means, I gained 6 pounds of muscle. I lost about 6% of my body fat, according to her measurements.

    I combined cardio and strength training - elliptical, running, lifting (I was weak when I started, and now can see and feel muscle) and doing the 30DS.

    Not sure if this helps, but in my case, yes, I was able to have a serious calorie deficeit and still gain muscle. Waiting to see what the next 3 months will bring!!

    The problem with the tools trainers use, is they aren't vastly accurate. Bioimpedance machines can vary simply based on hydration. Not trying to burst your bubble, just stating some facts. This is why it's hard to listen to scales that suggest body fat percentages. I am not saying you didn't have any gains, as it's possible to get newb gains if you haven't lifted before, but it's VERY unlikely that you gained real lean body mass on 1200 calories.
  • PeachyPlum
    PeachyPlum Posts: 1,243 Member
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    Bumping to read when I'm not in a meeting
  • leeeowens
    leeeowens Posts: 2
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    Yes, you CAN gain muscle on a calorie deficit! My husband and I both have done so. I think it depends on how much weight you have to spare. I started out at 310 pounds. I had a lot of "calories" already stored that my body could use for this. As far as how much you can gain? IDK, I'd say I've probably gained at least 15 pounds or so over the last year. My husband gained more. I will say once he upped his calories to maintainence, he started gaining more rapidly.

    You were morbidly obese and used fat stores as calories to make MINIMAL gains but you didn't gain 15lbs of lean muscle mass in a year. Women can barely do that on a calorie surplus.
  • leeeowens
    leeeowens Posts: 2
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    Yes, you CAN gain muscle on a calorie deficit! My husband and I both have done so. I think it depends on how much weight you have to spare. I started out at 310 pounds. I had a lot of "calories" already stored that my body could use for this. As far as how much you can gain? IDK, I'd say I've probably gained at least 15 pounds or so over the last year. My husband gained more. I will say once he upped his calories to maintainence, he started gaining more rapidly.

    You were morbidly obese and used fat stores as calories to make MINIMAL gains but you didn't gain 15lbs of lean muscle mass in a year. Women can barely do that on a calorie surplus.

    That seems rude. She says she gain 15 lbs of muscle, she did. I still believe you can gain muscle mass on a calorie deficit. I did.
  • waldo56
    waldo56 Posts: 1,861 Member
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    My schedule is natually IF/leangains style, most of my calories come in a 2-3 hr window right before bed (usually >>>2000 calories). But I do look at calories a little differently, calcuate my own BMR/sedentary TDEE from fat and carbs alone Hackers Diet style (it is much, much hgher than typical levels @ elevated protein amounts, works for me though, results have been great).

    I haven't gained a lot of lean mass, but a little as I've cut (about 5 lbs). Not just the scale/circumference BF% measures, but it is backed up by measurements of the muscles themselves. I measure the full gamut of willoughby ideal athlete measurements once a week. Since the New Year I've lost about 35 lbs of fat and gained about 5 lbs of lean mass. My chest circumference has gained 3/4", my thighs have each gained 3/8", calves, biceps, forearms, and wrists have each gained 1/8". Chances are, I have gained real muscle mass. Though noob gains does play a role certainly. But I regularly have "huh, where did that muscle come from" moments as new things pop up here and there, and not because the fat was cleared away (such as my wrists, where I just noticed some new popups yesterday, must be from the back lever/one arm chin work).
  • dlwyatt82
    dlwyatt82 Posts: 1,077 Member
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    Maybe not much (opinions vary), but even without putting on actual mass, you can strengthen and firm up the muscle tissue that you already have, all while still losing fat, which makes you look much more toned and muscular.

    At some point, your strength gains will probably plateau until you can start eating at a surplus to add on the pounds new muscle tissue. That's where you could get into the "bulking and cutting" rotation you mentioned.
  • thistimeismytime
    thistimeismytime Posts: 711 Member
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    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/447514-athletes-can-gain-muscle-while-losing-fat-on-deficit-diet

    This is the ONLY shred of information I have ever seen about adding lean body mass on a caloric deficit.

    Thanks :happy: --that's an interesting read--leave it to heybales to post some research! lol
  • CyberEd312
    CyberEd312 Posts: 3,536 Member
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    Yes, you CAN gain muscle on a calorie deficit! My husband and I both have done so. I think it depends on how much weight you have to spare. I started out at 310 pounds. I had a lot of "calories" already stored that my body could use for this. As far as how much you can gain? IDK, I'd say I've probably gained at least 15 pounds or so over the last year. My husband gained more. I will say once he upped his calories to maintainence, he started gaining more rapidly.

    How do you back up your claims? Because his muscles and yours became more visible? He became stronger? Did you have your bodies evaluated before and after?

    I would question the 15 lbs. in a year that would be alot especially for a women let alone a man but I do believe without a doubt you Can gain muscle in a calorie deficit, especially if you are morbidly or super morbidly obese and your body can pull from fat stores for energy.. This has been the case for me the last 3 years.. I have been in a calorie deficit for 35 straight months but have gained muscle and lost alot a fat at the rate of 102 lbs. a year the last 3 years. So in my experience there is truth to it...
  • joejccva71
    joejccva71 Posts: 2,985 Member
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    Yes, you CAN gain muscle on a calorie deficit! My husband and I both have done so. I think it depends on how much weight you have to spare. I started out at 310 pounds. I had a lot of "calories" already stored that my body could use for this. As far as how much you can gain? IDK, I'd say I've probably gained at least 15 pounds or so over the last year. My husband gained more. I will say once he upped his calories to maintainence, he started gaining more rapidly.

    You were morbidly obese and used fat stores as calories to make MINIMAL gains but you didn't gain 15lbs of lean muscle mass in a year. Women can barely do that on a calorie surplus.

    That seems rude. She says she gain 15 lbs of muscle, she did. I still believe you can gain muscle mass on a calorie deficit. I did.

    How was what I said rude? Why are people so sensitive on this forum?

    A woman would do AMAZINGLY well to gain about 12lbs of muscle in ONE YEAR with PERFECT training and a PERFECT diet. I really don't have any idea why people think they can just build new tissue out of thin air. Once you get past the newbie gains, etc etc., then in order to continue to BUILD NEW TISSUE you have to have energy. The energy HAS to come from somewhere. If people could build new tissue on a calorie deficit, then they would also get fat.

    It's EXTREMELY difficult to build new muscle tissue without gaining a bit of fat as well. IF from LeanGains is a method of doing this but it is not an easy thing to accomplish. Also, Berkhan wasn't always natural.

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