Setting the record straight on "muscle building deficits"

joejccva71

It's quite frankly pretty irritating to continue to see people float around on this forum constantly throwing out how they gained tons of muscle mass on a calorie deficit when they really have no concept of how energy input versus output works. I've made posts about this in the past year but people come and go on this site, although some stay on the site but their brains take a vacation and they forget one very basic biological principle:

You CANNOT continue to build NEW TISSUE without energy consumption that EXCEEDS energy production. You just can't.

You build muscle one of these 5 ways:

1. Newbie gains from being a beginner lifting. (Minimal gains)
2. Returning to lifting from a long break. (Minimal gains)
3. You are morbidly obese and you use fat stores as "calories" to gain some muscle. (Minimal gains)
4. You eat a calorie surplus.
5. You are a superhero or an amazingly genetically gifted individual.

That's it. Let's break this down even further.

Anabolic pathways shut down in a deficit.

Elevated rates of muscle protein synthesis necessary for muscle growth depends on the hormone signal from mTOR which is close to nonexistent in a calorie deficit.
That's compounded by the effects of AMPK on protein synthesis - AMPK inhibits mTOR, and the ghrelin/leptin signalling from dieting increases AMPK activation in the brain so the upshot is that while dieting muscular protein synthesis is inhibited. This doesn't apply to severely obese individuals who have a lot of abnormal things going on with their ghrelin/leptin signalling axis that means the protein synthesis isn't as energy-sensitive at body fat levels above 30%, so having severe obesity means you can build fairly significant muscle even in severe calorie deficits. I don't think i'd want to go that route though.
Thing is, just about all the biochemical processes involved in fat loss are in direct opposition to the proceses involved in muscle gain, so while you have a hormonal environment that results in one you don't have the other, assuming a non-distorted and non-drug-using metabolism. You can get significantly stronger even in a calorie deficit since strength is at least partially a function of neural efficiency.
There's also a few exceptions to the rule - complete beginners can and do gain muscle mass in a calorie deficit in the first few weeks of working out, and there's also a few genetic supermen/women whose bodies just work differently.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20300017
"Anabolic and catabolic hormones and energy balance of the male bodybuilders during the preparation for the competition."

The purpose of the study was to investigate simultaneous effects of energy balance, caloric intake, and the hormonal anabolic-catabolic balance in bodybuilders prior to competition. Fourteen male bodybuilders took part in an 11-week energy-restricted period to reduce body fat. The subjects were divided into the energy-restricted group (ERG) (n = 7), who were preparing for the competition, or the control group (CG) (n = 7) who continued to train regularly and did not change their dietary or training pattern. Participants were tested at 11 weeks (T1), 5 weeks (T2), and 3 days (T3) before competition for diet, body composition, and fasting hormonal assessment. Body mass and body fat percentage of ERG were significantly (p < 0.05) decreased during the study period. In ERG, insulinlike growth factor-1 (IGF-1) and insulin decreased significantly during the 11-week weight-reduction period (p < 0.05). Testosterone was decreased only from week 11 to week 5 (from 20.3 +/- 6.0 to 18.0 +/- 6.8 nmol/L). Changes in IGF-I concentration were significantly related to changes in insulin (r = 0.741), fat mass (r = 0.705), lean body mass (r = 0.696), and body mass (r = 0.652). Changes in insulin concentrations were significantly related to changes in fat mass (r = 0.630) and lean body mass (r = 0.725). These data indicate that severe energy restriction to extremely low body energy reserves decreases significantly the concentrations of 3 anabolic pathways despite high protein intake.Monitoring of insulin and IGF-1 concentration is suggested to prevent losses in muscle mass in energy-restricted conditions. Other nutritional strategies might be needed to prevent possible catabolic effect during preparation of bodybuilders to competition.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15294054
"Regulation of protein synthesis associated with skeletal muscle hypertrophy by insulin-, amino acid- and exercise-induced signalling."


Also from Lyle Mcdonald:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-energy-balance-equation.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass-gain.html


Have a nice day.

J

TrophyWifeSass

Awesome read Joe. Thanks.


Sass

Elizabeth_C34

It's important to point out also that lean body mass is NOT the same as muscle mass. LBM includes connective tissues, water, organ tissue, and bone as well as muscle tissue. So while your body fat percentage may go down or you gain LBM (assuming your weight stays the same), that DOES NOT directly equate to muscle gains.

Nice post Joe!

UponThisRock

6. Drugs

Nice post.

thistimeismytime

Sigh...that's what I thought. :sad: The truth hurts. Seems like anyone who says you can do both at once is selling something.

Yanicka1

Love it

PercivalHackworth

bump for a great post

LovelyLifter

THank you so much great post

mmapags

Awesome post Joe!!

dlwyatt82

Bumping to keep an eye on the fun train wreck of replies that's sure to come. :laugh:

Captain_Tightpants

A welcome voice of reason! Nice post.

Cliffslosinit

Bump
Thanks from a newbie

secretlobster

Uh oh. People are going to be mad at you, instead of just eating more.

BigDaddyBRC

Well said and broken down.

RumOne

Great Read:flowerforyou: Thanks! :drinker:

tcat2012

I read all of these posts (and have been on mfp since the first week of Feb) and do understand this.

I have a serious/legitimate question though: I've been exercising daily (alternating cardio days--300-400 cal burn per day, with strength/weights--moderately heavy, at least for me) for more than 90 days...and restricting calories too (initially 1200/day plus exercise calories, now for the past few weeks 1600 cals per day w/o eating exercise calores--BMR is 1293). My goal is to gradually increase calories to TDEE -15%, I just don't want to jump in with both feet because I'd rather not gain weight (since it's so hard for me to lose).

In more than 3 months, I have lost only 3 lbs. (all in the first month, nothing in the last 2 months). I would like to lose 5 more but nothing's hapening. I do not cheat, log everything, my highest calorie day was about 1750 but have kept it consistently at or slightly below 1600 every other day. I get pretty close to my macros every day (40carb, 30 protein, 30 fat) and eat very health. I rarely drink alcohol (but count the calories when I do) and eat no processed/pre-packaged food at all, so my sodium is under control.

Here's the question (finally...sorry this is so long) If I'm not losing pounds, but my measurements are going down (very nicely--which I'm obviously thrilled about so trying not too hard to stress about losing pounds) and my legs/arms/torso feel much firmer and stronger, I can feel biceps and see slight definition in my abs... Am I building muscle? My assumption has been that I am losing fat and gaining muscle (based on my lack of weight loss but increased muscle tone and definition).

AllTehBeers

It's important to point out also that lean body mass is NOT the same as muscle mass. LBM includes connective tissues, water, organ tissue, and bone as well as muscle tissue. So while your body fat percentage may go down or you gain LBM (assuming your weight stays the same), that DOES NOT directly equate to muscle gains.

Nice post Joe!

I'm learning new things all the time. This is why I stress reading, reading and more reading to the newbies.

Great OP Joe.

albayin

I read all of these posts (and have been on mfp since the first week of Feb) and do understand this.

I have a serious/legitimate question though: I've been exercising daily (alternating cardio days--300-400 cal burn per day, with strength/weights--moderately heavy, at least for me) for more than 90 days...and restricting calories too (initially 1200/day plus exercise calories, now for the past few weeks 1600 cals per day w/o eating exercise calores--BMR is 1293). My goal is to gradually increase calories to TDEE -15%, I just don't want to jump in with both feet because I'd rather not gain weight (since it's so hard for me to lose).

In more than 3 months, I have lost only 3 lbs. (all in the first month, nothing in the last 2 months). I would like to lose 5 more but nothing's hapening. I do not cheat, log everything, my highest calorie day was about 1750 but have kept it consistently at or slightly below 1600 every other day. I get pretty close to my macros every day (40carb, 30 protein, 30 fat) and eat very health. I rarely drink alcohol (but count the calories when I do) and eat no processed/pre-packaged food at all, so my sodium is under control.

Here's the question (finally...sorry this is so long) If I'm not losing pounds, but my measurements are going down (very nicely--which I'm obviously thrilled about so trying not too hard to stress about losing pounds) and my legs/arms/torso feel much firmer and stronger, I can feel biceps and see slight definition in my abs... Am I building muscle? My assumption has been that I am losing fat and gaining muscle (based on my lack of weight loss but increased muscle tone and definition).

You almost told my story...but with exception of the measurement...mine has gone up since I started weight training..this is frustrating.

thistimeismytime

Ok, just to keep this thread going, I'm gonna post my 4 1/2 month progress pics. I had my bodyfat measured (with calipers) shortly after the "before" pic, and then again recently...as I said, it showed my LBM to be EXACTLY the same. I know you guys poo-poo calipers, but come on--we don't all live in places where DEXA testing is feasible. Anyway, I gotta be honest, I was HOPING for some added LBM (even though I know the science says it ain't gonna happen), but my (admittedly sub-standard) testing showed that I was merely able to MAINTAIN my LBM while losing bodyfat....All that being said, how sad can I really be about my results?? Not too sad....:smokin:

All that to say.....Maintaining (not building) your muscle mass while you lose bodyfat is a reasonable and achievable goal, and you can still get results you'll be happy about. (Btw, I'm not tan now--it's just lighting....)

Still a lot of work to do....

sandiki

Lots of good info!..

_hi_hat3r_

Who gives a damn

joejccva71

I read all of these posts (and have been on mfp since the first week of Feb) and do understand this.

I have a serious/legitimate question though: I've been exercising daily (alternating cardio days--300-400 cal burn per day, with strength/weights--moderately heavy, at least for me) for more than 90 days...and restricting calories too (initially 1200/day plus exercise calories, now for the past few weeks 1600 cals per day w/o eating exercise calores--BMR is 1293). My goal is to gradually increase calories to TDEE -15%, I just don't want to jump in with both feet because I'd rather not gain weight (since it's so hard for me to lose).

In more than 3 months, I have lost only 3 lbs. (all in the first month, nothing in the last 2 months). I would like to lose 5 more but nothing's hapening. I do not cheat, log everything, my highest calorie day was about 1750 but have kept it consistently at or slightly below 1600 every other day. I get pretty close to my macros every day (40carb, 30 protein, 30 fat) and eat very health. I rarely drink alcohol (but count the calories when I do) and eat no processed/pre-packaged food at all, so my sodium is under control.

Here's the question (finally...sorry this is so long) If I'm not losing pounds, but my measurements are going down (very nicely--which I'm obviously thrilled about so trying not too hard to stress about losing pounds) and my legs/arms/torso feel much firmer and stronger, I can feel biceps and see slight definition in my abs... Am I building muscle? My assumption has been that I am losing fat and gaining muscle (based on my lack of weight loss but increased muscle tone and definition).

You have had some minimal gains in LBM due to being a newbie lifter, but as that slows with time you also increase in water retention which is causing the scale to stop or to fluctuate. Keep at it, stick to your diet and calorie intake and you will slowly see the weight and bodyfat% start to drop.

solarpower03

All that to say.....Maintaining (not building) your muscle mass while you lose bodyfat is a reasonable and achievable goal, and you can still get results you'll be happy about. (Btw, I'm not tan now--it's just lighting....)

This is what you aim to do in 'cutting' phase and this is a very realistic goal!

Elizabeth_C34

Ok, just to keep this thread going, I'm gonna post my 4 1/2 month progress pics. I had my bodyfat measured (with calipers) shortly after the "before" pic, and then again recently...as I said, it showed my LBM to be EXACTLY the same. I know you guys poo-poo calipers, but come on--we don't all live in places where DEXA testing is feasible. Anyway, I gotta be honest, I was HOPING for some added LBM (even though I know the science says it ain't gonna happen), but my (admittedly sub-standard) testing showed that I was merely able to MAINTAIN my LBM while losing bodyfat....All that being said, how sad can I really be about my results?? Not too sad....:smokin:

All that to say.....Maintaining (not building) your muscle mass while you lose bodyfat is a reasonable and achievable goal, and you can still get results you'll be happy about. (Btw, I'm not tan now--it's just lighting....)

Still a lot of work to do....

HELLO sexy! You look awesome. Great work! Congrats on your progress, and thanks for sharing.

yuliyax

bump

Mompanda4

Thanks

joejccva71

Ok, just to keep this thread going, I'm gonna post my 4 1/2 month progress pics. I had my bodyfat measured (with calipers) shortly after the "before" pic, and then again recently...as I said, it showed my LBM to be EXACTLY the same. I know you guys poo-poo calipers, but come on--we don't all live in places where DEXA testing is feasible. Anyway, I gotta be honest, I was HOPING for some added LBM (even though I know the science says it ain't gonna happen), but my (admittedly sub-standard) testing showed that I was merely able to MAINTAIN my LBM while losing bodyfat....All that being said, how sad can I really be about my results?? Not too sad....:smokin:

All that to say.....Maintaining (not building) your muscle mass while you lose bodyfat is a reasonable and achievable goal, and you can still get results you'll be happy about. (Btw, I'm not tan now--it's just lighting....)

Still a lot of work to do....

Awesome job!!

theartichoke

Thank you so much for posting this. I have a question if anyone can answer please. While obese I get that I can make minimal gains. Will I keep these gains or are they temporary...as in when my body fat hits less than 30%? Do I have to do some crazy voodoo chicken dance to keep them? Also, what is the difference between strengthening muscle and building it? If I can't build much muscle while in a deficit then I want them stronger. How do I do that? Do I need to be doing something other than NROLW? Thank you to anyone who can help!

speedyf

bump for a great post! Thank you!

joejccva71

Thank you so much for posting this. I have a question if anyone can answer please. While obese I get that I can make minimal gains. Will I keep these gains or are they temporary...as in when my body fat hits less than 30%? Do I have to do some crazy voodoo chicken dance to keep them? Also, what is the difference between strengthening muscle and building it? If I can't build much muscle while in a deficit then I want them stronger. How do I do that? Do I need to be doing something other than NROLW? Thank you to anyone who can help!

As long as you stick to your training program (NROLFW) and you continue to eat your minimum protein macro requirements which depending on your stats probably should be about 90g at the minimum then you're fine. You'll keep your gains. Also remember that the leaner you get, the more protein you need to MAINTAIN the LBM and Muscle Mass you currently have. Like instead of eating 1g of protein per lb of LBM, if you were in the low 20's bodyfat% , then you would be good to bump it to 1.25g per lb of LBM.

Strengthening muscle can be achieved by just being consistent with your training program and having progressive overload. Building mass requires calories/energy to make tissue grow.

Cmonnowguys

Great info! Thank you!