Setting the record straight on "muscle building deficits"

fittiephd

Thank you OP for posting this! I was asking about this yesterday, as I've recently started heavy lifting ~2 months ago (NROLFW). I've maintained the same weight the whole time, but I definitely see changes in my body and in the measurements slightly as well.

I've been eating at a 200 calorie deficit from TDEE although I have not lost any lbs, so I'm wondering if it's actually my maintenance calorie level because I literally sit around all day while I work (don't even commute, I work from home) so I am extremely sedentary, except when I'm working out.

Anyways my question is:
If you are eating at a slight deficit, heavy lifting, and you find that over time you are "getting stronger", ie you can do the same moves with heavier weights, are you "building muscle"?

ie does building muscle = getting stronger?

I'm scared to eat at a surplus, I'm afraid to gain fat I think since I am not trying for crazy muscles I'll aim to eat maintenance and keep lifting to be strong/healthy/tight I'd like to lower my body fat percentage.

Thank you!

harlanJEN

GREAT post ! Thanks : )

theartichoke

Thank you so much for your time! I get an obscene amount of protein each day (120g-ish) but certainly wouldn't mind adding more if needed. I'll be consistent in my training and look forward to seeing these muscles eventually!

albayin

Thank you OP for posting this! I was asking about this yesterday, as I've recently started heavy lifting ~2 months ago (NROLFW). I've maintained the same weight the whole time, but I definitely see changes in my body and in the measurements slightly as well.

I've been eating at a 200 calorie deficit from TDEE although I have not lost any lbs, so I'm wondering if it's actually my maintenance calorie level because I literally sit around all day while I work (don't even commute, I work from home) so I am extremely sedentary, except when I'm working out.

Anyways my question is:
If you are eating at a slight deficit, heavy lifting, and you find that over time you are "getting stronger", ie you can do the same moves with heavier weights, are you "building muscle"?

ie does building muscle = getting stronger?

I'm scared to eat at a surplus, I'm afraid to gain fat I think since I am not trying for crazy muscles I'll aim to eat maintenance and keep lifting to be strong/healthy/tight I'd like to lower my body fat percentage.

Thank you!

I want to hear answers to this too...

hadesflame

As long as you stick to your training program (NROLFW) and you continue to eat your minimum protein macro requirements which depending on your stats probably should be about 90g at the minimum then you're fine. You'll keep your gains. Also remember that the leaner you get, the more protein you need to MAINTAIN the LBM and Muscle Mass you currently have. Like instead of eating 1g of protein per lb of LBM, if you were in the low 20's bodyfat% , then you would be good to bump it to 1.25g per lb of LBM.

Strengthening muscle can be achieved by just being consistent with your training program and having progressive overload. Building mass requires calories/energy to make tissue grow.

Thank you for actually answering questions and not being a jerk or giving a rude response. I'm new to a lot of this stuff and I don't like to ask questions because it seems like a lot of times I get snotty comments or I'm made to feel stupid. So I tend to wait till someone else asks the same questions (sorry but it's true) because I don't feel like being made fun of for having a serious question. So, again, thank you for being nice to those of us who honestly want to better ourselves.
You have renewed my faith in humanity. lol :flowerforyou:

LoveActually

5. You are a superhero or an amazingly genetically gifted individual.

I always thought so, but this confirms it. Great post.

Elizabeth_C34

Thank you OP for posting this! I was asking about this yesterday, as I've recently started heavy lifting ~2 months ago (NROLFW). I've maintained the same weight the whole time, but I definitely see changes in my body and in the measurements slightly as well.

I've been eating at a 200 calorie deficit from TDEE although I have not lost any lbs, so I'm wondering if it's actually my maintenance calorie level because I literally sit around all day while I work (don't even commute, I work from home) so I am extremely sedentary, except when I'm working out.

Anyways my question is:
If you are eating at a slight deficit, heavy lifting, and you find that over time you are "getting stronger", ie you can do the same moves with heavier weights, are you "building muscle"?

ie does building muscle = getting stronger?

I'm scared to eat at a surplus, I'm afraid to gain fat I think since I am not trying for crazy muscles I'll aim to eat maintenance and keep lifting to be strong/healthy/tight I'd like to lower my body fat percentage.

Thank you!

I can tell you that "no" strength gains do not equal muscle gains.

I've lost a significant amount of muscle (7 lbs muscle lost total since I started) and 3" each around my thighs, and my max legpress (1 rep) has gone from 95 lbs to 225. My alternating curls have gone from a pathetic 8lbs (x8 reps to failure) to 20 lbs (x5 reps to failure).

Muscle tissue retains water, so when you lift, you end up carrying more water weight around which leads to the increase in scale weight while you lose fat. This is why the measurements change. Hope this helps

mmapags

Thank you OP for posting this! I was asking about this yesterday, as I've recently started heavy lifting ~2 months ago (NROLFW). I've maintained the same weight the whole time, but I definitely see changes in my body and in the measurements slightly as well.

I've been eating at a 200 calorie deficit from TDEE although I have not lost any lbs, so I'm wondering if it's actually my maintenance calorie level because I literally sit around all day while I work (don't even commute, I work from home) so I am extremely sedentary, except when I'm working out.

Anyways my question is:
If you are eating at a slight deficit, heavy lifting, and you find that over time you are "getting stronger", ie you can do the same moves with heavier weights, are you "building muscle"?

ie does building muscle = getting stronger?

I'm scared to eat at a surplus, I'm afraid to gain fat I think since I am not trying for crazy muscles I'll aim to eat maintenance and keep lifting to be strong/healthy/tight I'd like to lower my body fat percentage.

Thank you!

First let me say congrats on your wonderful progress! Great job. To address your question, if you are in a deficit, it is virtually impossible to "build muscle". You can get what are called beginer gains. That really comes from the development of underdeveloped or artophied muscles and will appear like muscle growth. You will also experience the influx of glycogen and water (getting a pump) and that will give the appearance of muscle growth. I'm eating at maintenance starting this week for probably a month. Prior to that I was at a deficit for 4 months. I began heavy lifting back in the begining of March and have not lost a pound but am dropping 1 to 1.5% body fat per month. Do you have a way to measure body fat? Also are you doing body measurements. Sounds like you are right on track and doing fine.

mmapags

Thank you so much for your time! I get an obscene amount of protein each day (120g-ish) but certainly wouldn't mind adding more if needed. I'll be consistent in my training and look forward to seeing these muscles eventually!

Heck that's not obscene! I get close to 220g most days!

Elizabeth_C34

Thank you so much for your time! I get an obscene amount of protein each day (120g-ish) but certainly wouldn't mind adding more if needed. I'll be consistent in my training and look forward to seeing these muscles eventually!

Yeah, that's a good thing! Nice work! Sounds like you're doing quite well.

cgrout78

thanks for a great post!

joejccva71

Thank you OP for posting this! I was asking about this yesterday, as I've recently started heavy lifting ~2 months ago (NROLFW). I've maintained the same weight the whole time, but I definitely see changes in my body and in the measurements slightly as well.

I've been eating at a 200 calorie deficit from TDEE although I have not lost any lbs, so I'm wondering if it's actually my maintenance calorie level because I literally sit around all day while I work (don't even commute, I work from home) so I am extremely sedentary, except when I'm working out.

Anyways my question is:
If you are eating at a slight deficit, heavy lifting, and you find that over time you are "getting stronger", ie you can do the same moves with heavier weights, are you "building muscle"?

ie does building muscle = getting stronger?

I'm scared to eat at a surplus, I'm afraid to gain fat I think since I am not trying for crazy muscles I'll aim to eat maintenance and keep lifting to be strong/healthy/tight I'd like to lower my body fat percentage.

Thank you!

You can gain strength via progressive overload even while eating a calorie deficit, and if you are new to lifting then you also will gain some muscle due to "newbie gains". Eventually the muscle will stop (unless you're in a surplus), but if your training program is solid and you are actively progressing your lifts, then you'll build strength.

A few questions for ya:

How do you know what your TDEE is? Have you been monitoring calorie intake over the course of 2-4 weeks and evaluating? Or do you have a device like Bodymedia FIT, Bodybugg, or a Fitbit, etc?

When you build muscle your tissue is being broken down and then rebuilding (via the calorie surplus) and effectively getting stronger as the tissue itself gets reinforced to handle the added weight.

You have to consistently eat a moderate calorie surplus to gain tissue and gain weight. The scale can play some mind tricks with you because of water retention and glycogen in which you should use both the mirror and the scale to see progress. When you truly find out your TDEE and try to get it as accurate as possible, then you can safely adjust calorie intake to ensure you do lose fat.

tcat2012

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question; I really appreciate it...and your stay-the-course advice is very encouraging (it's what I planned to do but it's good to hear it from someone with experience).

Taylerr88

neural adaptation within your brain is the reason you gain strength on a cut.

is it possible to keep all LBM while cutting? No.. not even remotely.. LBM is just lean body mass. example... extracellular fluid, connective tissue, blood volume and//or just plain blood.

is it possible to keep most of your muscle? yes, one of the main reasons people say to go slow.. usually a 500 deficit is reasonable .. as well as high protein

albayin

Hi Joe, here is mine...
I started eating 1200 calories last year and lost about 10 pounds (water? probably). Then I stalled and started doing squats with handweights, and all that stuff but nothing too heavy, 5lb and 20 lbs. I do this strength traing 3 times a week with some cardio to bump up the heart rate. While I am still eating 1200-1500, with a few cheating days of 2000, I suddenly "gained" all that 10 pounds back. I cannot believe it. I can see more tones on the arms and butt (actually butt got obviously lifted) and thighs, but the most frustrated part is the measurement has gone up too. Did I gain fat? What's going on...I have never got my body fat tested but at touch I feel my stomache is much firmer and less loose skin on the upper arms...What should I do?

And I eat lots of protein everyday, at least 100 grams from chicken, turkey, tofu and protein bars...Any suggestion is appreciated. Please don't bash me. I know I probably sound pretty ignorant.

kbresso

I've cut 200 calories off my TDEE (only for a few weeks) and, honestly I'm thrilled to finally see the scale move down but I want to build muscle. I get what OP and others are saying but just how much of a surplus are we talking here? I love my beginner's gains but want to make sure I'm eating enough to get to the next level.

joejccva71

neural adaptation within your brain is the reason you gain strength on a cut.

is it possible to keep all LBM while cutting? No.. not even remotely.. LBM is just lean body mass. example... extracellular fluid, connective tissue, blood volume and//or just plain blood.

is it possible to keep most of your muscle? yes, one of the main reasons people say to go slow.. usually a 500 deficit is reasonable .. as well as high protein

Yea this is correct. I should probably edit one of my responses and say that keeping all your LBM while eating a deficit is impossible. Lifting heavy in a good weight resistance training program + adequate protein helps MINIMIZE LBM loss.

Thanks bro.

meshashesha2012

great post. i wish i could send this to one of the trainers at the gym who was actually trying to tell me that i needed to be careful about bulking up because of the weights I life. when i simply told him "i dont eat enough for that to happen" he absolutely had no idea what i meant.

what was even funnier is that the conversation started because he congratulated me on weight loss... not exactly sure how i could be both visibly slimming down and bulking up..

joejccva71

Edit: Oops...MFP forum post fail. lol

joejccva71

Double post...

fittiephd

Thank you OP for posting this! I was asking about this yesterday, as I've recently started heavy lifting ~2 months ago (NROLFW). I've maintained the same weight the whole time, but I definitely see changes in my body and in the measurements slightly as well.

I've been eating at a 200 calorie deficit from TDEE although I have not lost any lbs, so I'm wondering if it's actually my maintenance calorie level because I literally sit around all day while I work (don't even commute, I work from home) so I am extremely sedentary, except when I'm working out.

Anyways my question is:
If you are eating at a slight deficit, heavy lifting, and you find that over time you are "getting stronger", ie you can do the same moves with heavier weights, are you "building muscle"?

ie does building muscle = getting stronger?

I'm scared to eat at a surplus, I'm afraid to gain fat I think since I am not trying for crazy muscles I'll aim to eat maintenance and keep lifting to be strong/healthy/tight I'd like to lower my body fat percentage.

Thank you!

First let me say congrats on your wonderful progress! Great job. To address your question, if you are in a deficit, it is virtually impossible to "build muscle". You can get what are called beginer gains. That really comes from the development of underdeveloped or artophied muscles and will appear like muscle growth. You will also experience the influx of glycogen and water (getting a pump) and that will give the appearance of muscle growth. I'm eating at maintenance starting this week for probably a month. Prior to that I was at a deficit for 4 months. I began heavy lifting back in the begining of March and have not lost a pound but am dropping 1 to 1.5% body fat per month. Do you have a way to measure body fat? Also are you doing body measurements. Sounds like you are right on track and doing fine.

You can gain strength via progressive overload even while eating a calorie deficit, and if you are new to lifting then you also will gain some muscle due to "newbie gains". Eventually the muscle will stop (unless you're in a surplus), but if your training program is solid and you are actively progressing your lifts, then you'll build strength.

A few questions for ya:

How do you know what your TDEE is? Have you been monitoring calorie intake over the course of 2-4 weeks and evaluating? Or do you have a device like Bodymedia FIT, Bodybugg, or a Fitbit, etc?

When you build muscle your tissue is being broken down and then rebuilding (via the calorie surplus) and effectively getting stronger as the tissue itself gets reinforced to handle the added weight.

You have to consistently eat a moderate calorie surplus to gain tissue and gain weight. The scale can play some mind tricks with you because of water retention and glycogen in which you should use both the mirror and the scale to see progress. When you truly find out your TDEE and try to get it as accurate as possible, then you can safely adjust calorie intake to ensure you do lose fat.

Ok, I figured it was impossible to actually build muscle at a deficit... I'm a scientist and it just didn't make sense to me lolol but I couldn't figure out how to explain the fact that I am definitely able to lift heavier things now!

Unfortunately I do not have a way to measure body fat Well, my scale supposedly can by "sending electrodes through my feet" but that is such BS hahaha. I have been doing measurements with a measuring tape. Since I started lifting I've lost ~.75 inches on my natural waist, ~1.25 inches below my belly button, and about .25 inches on my hips. My thighs are down .25 inches as well, but both my arms and legs look less flabby even though the measurements haven't changed much..

Yeah I guess my most basic question was if building muscle and building strength were the same thing, which clearly they are not!

I do not know what my TDEE actually is unfortunately, I do not have a HRM I calculated it using the method in NROLFW, which of course is an estimate. And then I subtracted 200 to have a slight deficit. But, I have not lost any scale weight in the 2 months I've been lifting, so I'm wondering if it is really a deficit at all.

Why can't my body take the fat on my body and use it to rebuild my muscle tissue ?! :P lol, in an ideal world haha

It seems that since I don't have a HRM or a way to measure body fat %, I should just keep up with my lifting program and try to eat close to "maintenance" (ie at a level where I don't gain or lose weight? I guess?) I hate going off estimates!! Also I always eat at least 100 g of protein but more like 110 .. (I weigh 130 lbs).. Not that I was ever planning on stopping the lifting program, I just want to make sure I'm eating right to get the most out of it!!

You guys are great, thanks for answering my Q's!

joejccva71

Hi Joe, here is mine...
I started eating 1200 calories last year and lost about 10 pounds (water? probably). Then I stalled and started doing squats with handweights, and all that stuff but nothing too heavy, 5lb and 20 lbs. I do this strength traing 3 times a week with some cardio to bump up the heart rate. While I am still eating 1200-1500, with a few cheating days of 2000, I suddenly "gained" all that 10 pounds back. I cannot believe it. I can see more tones on the arms and butt (actually butt got obviously lifted) and thighs, but the most frustrated part is the measurement has gone up too. Did I gain fat? What's going on...I have never got my body fat tested but at touch I feel my stomache is much firmer and less loose skin on the upper arms...What should I do?

And I eat lots of protein everyday, at least 100 grams from chicken, turkey, tofu and protein bars...Any suggestion is appreciated. Please don't bash me. I know I probably sound pretty ignorant.

You were undereating at 1200 cals a day causing some weight loss, probabaly mostly water but a little fat AND muscle loss as well. Then you started training with weights which causes water retention, and THEN you had sudden calorie intake spike days which will definately load you up on water and glycogen.

The question is...are you sure you only at 2000 calories on those days or did you go all out? To gain all that weight back probably is mostly water and glycogen but it's too hard to tell. I doubt it was all fat. Have you been keeping track of your weight each week? How do you look in the mirror? You should use both the scale and mirror to track progress.

Also...

I would advise you to get your bodyfat% tested when you can, and keep track of it. Get it tested every week on the same day at the same time in the morning if possible. Do it before you workout.

kimw91

Bump! Don't have time to read through everything now but I like this thread, especially since I just started lifting and bumping up my intake.

albayin

Hi Joe, here is mine...
I started eating 1200 calories last year and lost about 10 pounds (water? probably). Then I stalled and started doing squats with handweights, and all that stuff but nothing too heavy, 5lb and 20 lbs. I do this strength traing 3 times a week with some cardio to bump up the heart rate. While I am still eating 1200-1500, with a few cheating days of 2000, I suddenly "gained" all that 10 pounds back. I cannot believe it. I can see more tones on the arms and butt (actually butt got obviously lifted) and thighs, but the most frustrated part is the measurement has gone up too. Did I gain fat? What's going on...I have never got my body fat tested but at touch I feel my stomache is much firmer and less loose skin on the upper arms...What should I do?

And I eat lots of protein everyday, at least 100 grams from chicken, turkey, tofu and protein bars...Any suggestion is appreciated. Please don't bash me. I know I probably sound pretty ignorant.

You were undereating at 1200 cals a day causing some weight loss, probabaly mostly water but a little fat AND muscle loss as well. Then you started training with weights which causes water retention, and THEN you had sudden calorie intake spike days which will definately load you up on water and glycogen.

The question is...are you sure you only at 2000 calories on those days or did you go all out? To gain all that weight back probably is mostly water and glycogen but it's too hard to tell. I doubt it was all fat. Have you been keeping track of your weight each week? How do you look in the mirror? You should use both the scale and mirror to track progress.

Also...

I would advise you to get your bodyfat% tested when you can, and keep track of it. Get it tested every week on the same day at the same time in the morning if possible. Do it before you workout.

Yes I have been weighing myself almost everyday until the weight gain. I went into depression...Then I started increasing cardio. For the past 2 weeks, I have been jogging 1hr a day or 40 minutes of something else.

When I had spike, I probably went all the way due to TOM...Then I gained all the weight back literally overnight.

I look the same in the mirror, but with a much tighter stomach and waist. That's why I don't understand why my pants are tighter

Seems I'd have to get my bodyfat tested...somehow...Thanks again for listening and advising.

albayin

One more question: so now with strength training, how much should I eat? with or without deficit?

ninerbuff

Who gives a damn

Yo mama does! Really, if you don't give a damn, then why chime in? People who have no real idea how it works will probably want to know.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

ninerbuff

Great post Joe and hopefully it will clear up some of the "misinformation" of building muscle on calorie deficit.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

joejccva71

Hi Joe, here is mine...
I started eating 1200 calories last year and lost about 10 pounds (water? probably). Then I stalled and started doing squats with handweights, and all that stuff but nothing too heavy, 5lb and 20 lbs. I do this strength traing 3 times a week with some cardio to bump up the heart rate. While I am still eating 1200-1500, with a few cheating days of 2000, I suddenly "gained" all that 10 pounds back. I cannot believe it. I can see more tones on the arms and butt (actually butt got obviously lifted) and thighs, but the most frustrated part is the measurement has gone up too. Did I gain fat? What's going on...I have never got my body fat tested but at touch I feel my stomache is much firmer and less loose skin on the upper arms...What should I do?

And I eat lots of protein everyday, at least 100 grams from chicken, turkey, tofu and protein bars...Any suggestion is appreciated. Please don't bash me. I know I probably sound pretty ignorant.

You were undereating at 1200 cals a day causing some weight loss, probabaly mostly water but a little fat AND muscle loss as well. Then you started training with weights which causes water retention, and THEN you had sudden calorie intake spike days which will definately load you up on water and glycogen.

The question is...are you sure you only at 2000 calories on those days or did you go all out? To gain all that weight back probably is mostly water and glycogen but it's too hard to tell. I doubt it was all fat. Have you been keeping track of your weight each week? How do you look in the mirror? You should use both the scale and mirror to track progress.

Also...

I would advise you to get your bodyfat% tested when you can, and keep track of it. Get it tested every week on the same day at the same time in the morning if possible. Do it before you workout.

Yes I have been weighing myself almost everyday until the weight gain. I went into depression...Then I started increasing cardio. For the past 2 weeks, I have been jogging 1hr a day or 40 minutes of something else.

When I had spike, I probably went all the way due to TOM...Then I gained all the weight back literally overnight.

I look the same in the mirror, but with a much tighter stomach and waist. That's why I don't understand why my pants are tighter

Seems I'd have to get my bodyfat tested...somehow...Thanks again for listening and advising.

Yea, if you went all out not only did you retain a ton of water and glycogen but you could also have gained fat and a little LBM to support the increase in weight. It all counts. Let's say your TDEE is 2800 calories (just an example). If you go all out and eat 10,000 calories in one day then you WILL gain fat + water + glycogen + a little LBM to support the increase. This is a pretty cut and dry example as there are other factors that go into it as well but you see what I mean.

One more question: so now with strength training, how much should I eat? with or without deficit?

If you can spend the money it's worth getting a Bodymedia FIT, Bodybugg or Fitbit device. It's one of the best investments I've made so far other than future CPT and Fitness Nutrition Cert training.

Otherwise you'll have to go about it the hard way. Some folks will take their bodyweight and multiply it by 12-18 depending on their activity level, which is a rough guess honestly. Some people will eat normally for 2-4 weeks, tracking everything, and seeing how they progress. If their weight remains the same, then they just found their TDEE. This takes incredible patience and the will to only weigh yourself once a week. It's honestly, how I started.

Now I use a Bodymedia FIT lol.

monty619

skeletal muscle gain is different from strength gain.. you can still gain strength on a caloric defecit.

jg627

My turn for questions. Let's say you had 2-3 of the points you mentioned plus access to an MRI, should you be ran off the forums for suggesting that you would like to try? :flowerforyou: