Pre and post workout nutrition

Drastiic

Alan aragon is an idiot, despite my previous comment, i do believe this to be true.

You're a fool.

joejccva71

Complex carbs+Protein before your workout.
The amino acids help the muscles maintain an anabolic state instead of catabolic.
Complex carbs provide a steady source of energy through the workout.

After your workout you mix simple carbs+lean protein. AVOID FAT!!!!
The simple carbs spike your insulin and "shuttle" the protein into the muscles for maximum growth.
This is the one and only time you should allow yourself to eat simple carbs if you are trying to burn fat.

Through research and experience, these are all facts I can vogue for!!!!

The only part of your post here that isn't nonsense is the BOLDED part. The rest is ridiculous.

Jules2Be

ooo men fight!

Sidesteal

Are you saying that post workout meals don't help with growth? If you are, i do kind of agree... but just wondering, I think in the end total calories is what really matters.

Post workout meals do help with growth but it doesn't need to be within the first 30 minutes like the protein companies would like you to believe. You're looking at much longer time period and additionally, in most cases whatever you've eaten for a pre-workout meal will still be releasing amino acids into your bloodstream post workout which would basically negate any need to rush home and slam dat dere shake.

Basically, unless you're doing some sort of goofy-*kitten* meal plan where you eat every third day, I wouldn't worry one bit about nutrient timing specifically for trying to "remain anabolic".

The Primary Laws of Nutrient Timing

The First Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.
The Second Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.

- Alan Aragon

Alan aragon is an idiot, despite my previous comment, i do believe this to be true.

No offense bro but this is one of the reasons why I deliberately removed you. Comments like this just reinforce it.

okay joe and sidesteel.

Joe: Because i talk crap about... lyle? Tell me what results you got from RFL?

Sidesteel: It's not accurate, none of those quacks work in a lab, so they can't say a damn thing. Simplicity... You never made a mistake? I can call out some you made, lyle has made mistakes, aragon has made mistakes... Does that justify them as a quack?

Here is my problem,

1. Everyone makes mistakes, if you call someone a quack or their mistakes... then you're a quack yourself. (speaking of aragon and that one guy... mcdonald).

You're making your understanding of things very clear when you take the information of Lustig and Taubes over the following:

McDonald, Aragon, Krieger, Berkhan


To call these guys idiots is just plain silly talk. I have no other way to explain it.

joejccva71

Are you saying that post workout meals don't help with growth? If you are, i do kind of agree... but just wondering, I think in the end total calories is what really matters.

Post workout meals do help with growth but it doesn't need to be within the first 30 minutes like the protein companies would like you to believe. You're looking at much longer time period and additionally, in most cases whatever you've eaten for a pre-workout meal will still be releasing amino acids into your bloodstream post workout which would basically negate any need to rush home and slam dat dere shake.

Basically, unless you're doing some sort of goofy-*kitten* meal plan where you eat every third day, I wouldn't worry one bit about nutrient timing specifically for trying to "remain anabolic".

The Primary Laws of Nutrient Timing

The First Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.
The Second Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.

- Alan Aragon

Alan aragon is an idiot, despite my previous comment, i do believe this to be true.

No offense bro but this is one of the reasons why I deliberately removed you. Comments like this just reinforce it.

okay joe and sidesteel.

Joe: Because i talk crap about... lyle? Tell me what results you got from RFL?

Sidesteel: It's not accurate, none of those quacks work in a lab, so they can't say a damn thing. Simplicity... You never made a mistake? I can call out some you made, lyle has made mistakes, aragon has made mistakes... Does that justify them as a quack?

Here is my problem,

1. Everyone makes mistakes, if you call someone a quack or their mistakes... then you're a quack yourself. (speaking of aragon and that one guy... mcdonald).

Dude I lost 11lbs in 2 weeks on RFL. Some fat, some water. I was at 26% bodyfat at the time bro! There's nothing WRONG with doing RFL. It's just GUIDED for people that are already somewhat lean and trying to get LEANER. I've told you this atleast 10 times but you failed to listen, every time.

Lyle McDonald has wrote MANY books, and MANY blogs. Have you read The Protein Book, The Stubborn Fat Solution, Guide to Ketogenic Diets, Ultimate Diet 2.0 also? Have you read his articles? His forums? His researched blogs?

Both Lyle and Alan are two of the most knowledgeable and world renowned nutrition and fitness guru's anywhere.

jetscreaminagain

@ joe, doesn't matter what difference in opinions we share, we where still cool. But i classified you as mentally unstable, I almost kicked you out of the group, but i didn't out of respect for chris.

You did not seriously just call someone mentally unstable and bring a bunch of personal stuff from some clique into poor OP's regular little question of a thread?

Do you realize that calling someone unstable (while misspelling and having it follow up on calling published authors that are well respected "idiots") only makes you and what you have to say look bad?

I don't know joe, seen him around. Think I know who you're referring to as "chris" but not sure, not his friend. I don't KNOW these people but you're being a douche. You should probably stop and spend that energy on making your argument the slightest bit more sound.

OP, the two options you laid out are really not that different from each other. You'll be running your workout primarily on food you've already eaten. The pre- and post- workout food replenishes. Unless your work out is hours long, it really isn't something to worry too much about.

tigersword

Dude I lost 11lbs in 2 weeks on RFL. Some fat, some water. I was at 26% bodyfat at the time bro! There's nothing WRONG with doing RFL. It's just GUIDED for people that are already somewhat lean and trying to get LEANER. I've told you this atleast 10 times but you failed to listen, every time.

Lyle McDonald has wrote MANY books, and MANY blogs. Have you read The Protein Book, The Stubborn Fat Solution, Guide to Ketogenic Diets, Ultimate Diet 2.0 also? Have you read his articles? His forums? His researched blogs?

Both Lyle and Alan are two of the most knowledgeable and world renowned nutrition and fitness guru's anywhere.

I lost 10lbs in 1 week, then gained it back after i got off the program. He does mention it's geared towards people with lower body fat level. He gears it towards everyone, is that right? No it's not. That's one of the flaws. He made a mistake, that's fine.

Lustig, and taubes have made mistakes, but just by a few mistakes... aragon and mcdonald classifies these guys as quacks. Which is BS, he has made mistakes too.

We found another flaw in lyle's blog. Yet you still hold him as "all mighty" yet taubes and lustig are quacks? here's my view, according to aragon and mcdonald, a guy makes a mistake they're automatically a quack. So that means aragon and mcdonald are also quacks.

Yes i read those books.

Ugh, no. The difference between Aragon and Lustig is a major one. Aragon learns, and if he makes a mistake, he admits it and corrects it. When Lustig was called out on his mistake, he said, "Lots of people have watched my video, so I'm right!" He basically stuck his fingers in his ears and said "LALALALALALALALALA" rather than actually look at anything that he was questioned on and even attempt to explain the discrepancies.

jetscreaminagain

This is a public forum, and you're bringing some clearly hurtful personal stuff you're very sensitive about into it. You're picking a fight with people who you apparently used to be friends with. I remember this behavior from my female friends in junior high. It's really not becoming. I'd probably delete you just on the basis of your behavior in this thread.

But you were friends with them once, so you have something to offer.

Maybe rather than flame them in this thread about what that girl should eat before and after her workout, you could answer that question and cite why you think Taubes is right when he says this and McDonald is wrong when he says that. I've been around a while. Yet, you say I don't know what's going on. Fine. Any chance the OP knows what's going on? Probably not, so maybe don't derail her thread asking for information with your break-up freak out.

joejccva71

Dude I lost 11lbs in 2 weeks on RFL. Some fat, some water. I was at 26% bodyfat at the time bro! There's nothing WRONG with doing RFL. It's just GUIDED for people that are already somewhat lean and trying to get LEANER. I've told you this atleast 10 times but you failed to listen, every time.

Lyle McDonald has wrote MANY books, and MANY blogs. Have you read The Protein Book, The Stubborn Fat Solution, Guide to Ketogenic Diets, Ultimate Diet 2.0 also? Have you read his articles? His forums? His researched blogs?

Both Lyle and Alan are two of the most knowledgeable and world renowned nutrition and fitness guru's anywhere.

I lost 10lbs in 1 week, then gained it back after i got off the program. He does mention it's geared towards people with lower body fat level. He gears it towards everyone, is that right? No it's not. That's one of the flaws. He made a mistake, that's fine.

Lustig, and taubes have made mistakes, but just by a few mistakes... aragon and mcdonald classifies these guys as quacks. Which is BS, he has made mistakes too.

We found another flaw in lyle's blog. Yet you still hold him as "all mighty" yet taubes and lustig are quacks? here's my view, according to aragon and mcdonald, a guy makes a mistake they're automatically a quack. So that means aragon and mcdonald are also quacks.

Yes i read those books.

You gained it back cause you ate and ate. I've seen your diary many times. I've seen your comments on your wall about how you aren't motivated. I've seen the comments about Lyle and now Alan. But yet you think Taubes is amazing? Logic is flawed completely. Taubes is full of broscience, while Lyle and Alan base everything off peer-reviewed research/studies.

I absolutely refuse to get into a pissing match with you bro. I removed you because unfortunately you have this negative energy vibe that illuminates badly, and I prefer to support people that are willing the atleast try and not give excuses.

You have a good night.

Cr357

OP training fed vs. fasted could possibly impact your performance, that is for you to decide. Some people can't eat pre because it makes them sluggish, some have to or they're tired. Whatever works for you. As far as post there is no need to have a shake or rush for a meal. You can have a meal whenever convenient unless your doing double sessions or training for endurance sports. Protein synthesis will be elevated for up to 24 hours post. So unless your on some extreme diet that has you eat every 2 days then your fine.--->

The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.

So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204

Here's what you're not seeming to grasp: the "windows" for taking advantage of nutrient timing are not little peepholes. They're more like bay windows of a mansion. You're ignoring just how long the anabolic effects are of a typical mixed meal. Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everythng to drop back down to baseline.

You're also ignoring the fact that the anabolic effects of a meal are maxed out at much lower levels than typical meals drive insulin & amino acids up to. Furthermore, you're also ignoring the body's ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation when forced to work in the absence of fuels. So, metaphorically speaking, our physiology basically has the universe mapped out and you're thinking it needs to be taught addition & subtraction.

ANALYSIS OF GLYCOGEN UTILIZATION DURING TRAINING

"The carbohydrate requirements for weight training actually aren't that great. I did some rough calculations in The Ketogenic Diet and concluded that, for every 2 work sets (assuming a set length of 30-45 seconds) or so, you'll need 5 grams of carbohydrates to replenish the glycogen used." - Lyle McDonald, B.S. in Kinesiology

"In a study by Tesch et al. (1986), nine bodybuilders completed five sets each of front squats, back squats, leg presses, and leg extensions to fatigue, comprising 30 minutes of exercise. Biopsies of muscle samples were obtained from the vastus lateralis before and immediately after exercise. Muscle glycogen concentration was 26% lower post-exercise, a rather modest decline considering the demanding exercise protocol completed. This led the authors to conclude that energy sources in addition to muscle glycogen support heavy resistance training. Data from Essen-Gustavsson and Tesch (1990) with nine bodybuilders performing the same exercise regimen (as above) revealed a 28% decrement in muscle glycogen content as well as a 30% decrease in muscle triglyceride content. This suggests that intramuscular lipolysis (breakdown of triglycerides) may also play a role in energy production during repeated high-intensity exercise. Overall, research suggests that intramuscular glycogen is an important fuel supporting weight training exercise, but not the only substrate."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3758035
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2289498

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21131864

jetscreaminagain

I like weight lifting. I always have. More than most cardio other than swimming. Like to lift weights.

There is a person on these forums who blindly asserts that her particular version of martial arts and boxing that is promoted by a certain attractive man with an aliterative name is the best/only way to get results like her. She has a tendency to assert that lifting heavy don't get results and that she knows her body. Blah Blah Blah.

The result of her constant derailing of threads about women lifting weights is that at least a dozen MFP users I know have bought the book New Rules of Lifting for Women. Probably a similar number have thrown out their DVD's of fat-blasting cardio party Kar-oxing whatevers. Me? I've started emphasizing the lifting MUCH MUCH more than the cardio.

I bring this up not to flame the other user in any way. I tried to conceal her identity out of respect as I don't want to flame. I just wanted to highlight for you what happens when people get known for going into threads and derailing them to emphasize a deeply emotionally held conviction against one mode of thought and in favor of an opposing personality. No one takes Tae Bo seriously now, and its probably a darned good workout. People are just done hearing about it. If you really think this Taubes guy has it right, I'd suggest you focus on what he says that is dead on. Advocate that. Don't spend your take-me-seriously-chips calling published authors idiots or calling names at your former MFP friends. That's like the tae bo lady saying all us heavy lifting women are gonna get man chests. Its just dumb and it means no one will take you seriously after that.

So. take a step back. Take some deep breaths in and exhale completely, and reassess what it is you think is the cat's meow about your favorite author's ideas and then focus on that. Not that your friends left you behind or that the opposing author disappointed you. Seriously. Do that. Or I'm gonna go check out that Rapid Fat Loss stuff and read all those books that that one guy you're butthurt at suggested.

Sarauk2sf

OP: basically, make sure you hit your macros for the day and eat what/when is preferable to you - keep it simple. For me, if I have not eaten much the prior night, I feel I need something pre-work out otherwise is affects my performance. So play around with it and take note of when you have a better workout and feel better. Your absorbtion window is very long, so do not worry about when you get your proteins - focus on hitting your protein target for the day.

tigersword

Meats, eggs, and nut kcals decreased 4%.
Dairy kcals decreased 3%.
Percentage of fruit kcals stayed the same.
Percentage of vegetable kcals stayed the same.
Flour and cereal product kcals increased 3%.
Added fat kcals are up 7%,
Added sugars kcals decreased 1%
Total energy intake in 1970 averaged 2172 kcal. By 2007 this hiked up to 2775 kcal, a 603 kcal increase.

http://www.alanaragonblog.com/2010/01/29/the-bitter-truth-about-fructose-alarmism/

Look at it good... protein sources decreased, carbs and fat increased.

ADDED SUGAR DECREASED BY 1%. You are aware that Lustig's entire argument was the increase in added sugars, right? Fat has absolutely nothing to do with Lustig's argument, glucose and polysaccharides had nothing to do with Lustig's point. Lustig's entire argument was about fructose.

So, based on that, would say that Lustig should be blaming the increase in fat instead of fructose?

KimInsanityP

I love Vega Sport Pre and post workout drinks. Its vegan!

SwimTheButterfly

Bump:flowerforyou:

AlsDonkBoxSquat

OP: I almost always work out empty aside from coffee. I just can't exercise on anything else, including moderate amounts of fluid. Theres no rhyme or reason why I do what I do except I've tried a few different meals and have found that for my 530 am workouts it's coffee before and once I get settled into work for the day, about an hour after, I usually have one whole egg, one egg white, one corn tortilla, string cheese, and citrus fruit if I have some around along with more coffee. This usually make everything feel better. I never have a problem with performance during workouts either. I like the protein/fat/card distribution (although the protein could be higher for my liking).

tigersword

Meats, eggs, and nut kcals decreased 4%.
Dairy kcals decreased 3%.
Percentage of fruit kcals stayed the same.
Percentage of vegetable kcals stayed the same.
Flour and cereal product kcals increased 3%.
Added fat kcals are up 7%,
Added sugars kcals decreased 1%
Total energy intake in 1970 averaged 2172 kcal. By 2007 this hiked up to 2775 kcal, a 603 kcal increase.

http://www.alanaragonblog.com/2010/01/29/the-bitter-truth-about-fructose-alarmism/

Look at it good... protein sources decreased, carbs and fat increased.

ADDED SUGAR DECREASED BY 1%. You are aware that Lustig's entire argument was the increase in added sugars, right? Fat has absolutely nothing to do with Lustig's argument, glucose and polysaccharides had nothing to do with Lustig's point. Lustig's entire argument was about fructose.

So, based on that, would say that Lustig should be blaming the increase in fat instead of fructose?

I didn't know that sugars and carbs where different macro nutrients, thanks for letting me know.

Cereal grains don't have fructose in them, and they aren't "sugar." They are complex oligosaccharides, and have absolutely nothing to do with fructose, which was Lustig's entire argument, that FRUCTOSE was bad. Try and twist it however you like it, but the facts are right there, staring you in the face. All the fructose containing foods (fruits and added sugars) either stayed the same, or decreased, the exact opposite of Lustig's claims.

tigersword

You gained it back cause you ate and ate. I've seen your diary many times. I've seen your comments on your wall about how you aren't motivated. I've seen the comments about Lyle and now Alan. But yet you think Taubes is amazing? Logic is flawed completely. Taubes is full of broscience, while Lyle and Alan base everything off peer-reviewed research/studies.

I absolutely refuse to get into a pissing match with you bro. I removed you because unfortunately you have this negative energy vibe that illuminates badly, and I prefer to support people that are willing the atleast try and not give excuses.

You have a good night.

Taubes debunked cold fushion (i know you know nothing about that) that is one of the biggest accomplishments in chemistry.
My diary... I can promise you, it looks better than yours 95% of the time.

My workouts? Joe if you only knew. You're just making stuff up. If I wasn't motivated, I wouldn't have made a body change pound for pound greater than yours and sidesteel combined.

Taubes has absolutely zero education in nutrition, and it shows with his lack of actual research and knowledge in his books on nutrition. Taubes has a degree in journalism, he has no education at all in any field related to health, fitness, or nutrition. He has no more credibility than any random poster on this site.

Oh, and for the record, Taubes did not "debunk" cold fusion. He wrote about cold fusion. Actual scientists debated the merits of cold fusion for and against, and Taubes wrote an unresearched, non-scholarly book about the debates, which at the time were leaning toward cold fusion not being possible.

However, scientists are still currently studying cold fusion, so it certainly hasn't been "debunked" by anybody.

AlsDonkBoxSquat

a douche is deleting people for idiotic reason. You have no idea wtf is going on. Oh sorry about my spelling, i am pretty buzzed, sorry if that offends you.

Seriously, this is the freaking Internet. Honestly, why do you care that much about someone removing you from their friends list no matter the reason? I've removed people because excessive text speak drives me nuts, we're each here to have our own experiences make what we want out of it. You want to argue macro/micro nutrient timing, this is the thread to do it. You want to hash out *kitten* with joe and sidesteel, make a new thread.

DFWTT

This thread should be made into a de-motivational poster for new members.