DOMS, Overtraining, and Deload Weeks

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Replies

  • Annmarie49
    Annmarie49 Posts: 84
    Also to addon to what I said about DOMS. If you are changing up your routine so you are doing different exercises to work different muscle groups, and you get DOMS...then that is a different story and it's fine.

    Just wanted to be clear.

    so glad you clarified that part........started strength training 4 wks ago and first 2 weeks were 'agony'!!! last 2 have been fine!
  • joejccva71
    joejccva71 Posts: 2,985 Member
    You completely missed the point.

    elaborate as to what point i missed. I read this:

    "If you are doing your routine after the first few times, and you don't get DOMS the day or two after, this doesn't mean that you didn't work hard enough. You do NOT need to change your routine just because you didn't get sore. So many people think they did something wrong because they didn't get DOMS. "

    and i disagree, when it comes to strength training, if the goal is to get stronger or bigger, you should be sore after. If the goal isn't to get stronger or bigger, then what exactly is the goal? Also, this is the first place i have ever heard people complain about being sore after working out..........and the fact that someone had to give it a name is even sillier.....

    Being sore after training doesn't mean jack as to getting stronger or building muscle mass.

    Are you kidding me bro?

    no I am not

    Care to show some studies that prove your claims?
  • joejccva71
    joejccva71 Posts: 2,985 Member
    Joe: Would you suggest a full break - or sort of a rotating break. No legs one week, no chest/arms another - or would that be counter-productive?

    Full break for one week, or cut volume and/or workload in half.

    Your CNS will thank you dearly. =)
  • albinogorilla
    albinogorilla Posts: 1,056 Member
    You completely missed the point.

    elaborate as to what point i missed. I read this:

    "If you are doing your routine after the first few times, and you don't get DOMS the day or two after, this doesn't mean that you didn't work hard enough. You do NOT need to change your routine just because you didn't get sore. So many people think they did something wrong because they didn't get DOMS. "

    and i disagree, when it comes to strength training, if the goal is to get stronger or bigger, you should be sore after. If the goal isn't to get stronger or bigger, then what exactly is the goal? Also, this is the first place i have ever heard people complain about being sore after working out..........and the fact that someone had to give it a name is even sillier.....

    Being sore after training doesn't mean jack as to getting stronger or building muscle mass.

    Are you kidding me bro?

    no I am not

    Care to show some studies that prove your claims?


    ohhhhhhh our one of those "show me a study" guys ..............i will exit now then..........studying "soreness" is such a scientific process.........
  • joejccva71
    joejccva71 Posts: 2,985 Member
    You completely missed the point.

    elaborate as to what point i missed. I read this:

    "If you are doing your routine after the first few times, and you don't get DOMS the day or two after, this doesn't mean that you didn't work hard enough. You do NOT need to change your routine just because you didn't get sore. So many people think they did something wrong because they didn't get DOMS. "

    and i disagree, when it comes to strength training, if the goal is to get stronger or bigger, you should be sore after. If the goal isn't to get stronger or bigger, then what exactly is the goal? Also, this is the first place i have ever heard people complain about being sore after working out..........and the fact that someone had to give it a name is even sillier.....

    Being sore after training doesn't mean jack as to getting stronger or building muscle mass.

    Are you kidding me bro?

    no I am not

    Care to show some studies that prove your claims?


    ohhhhhhh our one of those "show me a study" guys ..............i will exit now then..........studying "soreness" is such a scientific process.........

    I made a thread. You tried to make a point which wasn't accurate. I contested you on it. You stood by it. I asked you to cite references and/or studies that prove your claims, and you don't have an answer.

    Soreness does not equal muscle growth and/or strength gains. If you can prove it otherwise, I'm all ears.
  • Ephena
    Ephena Posts: 610 Member
    Thanks for the info, it's useful, especially right now at this stage of my fitness routine.
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    @bigbear: You obviously work very hard, eat right, and know how to throw some weight around but the point of the thread is basically right. I'll try and post some info tonight if I can get around to it. There might be some different points of philosophies but in-general training to soreness or past a certain point of fatigue on an everyday basis is no good. It can lead to injury and fatigue to your CNS. But it's not unheard of to have back to lifting days where you work the same muscle group to a certain degree to spark some growth, just not something that should be done all the time. What you do obviously works for you but you my friend might just be a genetic mutant; and I say that in the best possible manner. Mostly because I'm jealous. LOL

    RE Arnold: Another genetic mutant that also pushed the limits of roid usage. Not that I necessarily disagree with using roids but that's a different subject. Combine that with a genetically gifted individual with good lifting knowledge, a great diet, and tremendous work ethic and Arnold is what you get.
  • mamitosami
    mamitosami Posts: 531 Member
    Thank you for this... I just took a week off. I felt really disenchanted with my routine and totally was dreading it, so I knew I needed a few days off. I feel renewed now. It's good to know this is something I should be doing. And I also do the deloading.... thanks a lot for taking the time to post this.
  • rjt1000
    rjt1000 Posts: 700 Member
    @bigbear: You obviously work very hard, eat right, and know how to throw some weight around but the point of the thread is basically right. I'll try and post some info tonight if I can get around to it. There might be some different points of philosophies but in-general training to soreness or past a certain point of fatigue on an everyday basis is no good. It can lead to injury and fatigue to your CNS. But it's not unheard of to have back to lifting days where you work the same muscle group to a certain degree to spark some growth, just not something that should be done all the time. What you do obviously works for you but you my friend might just be a genetic mutant; and I say that in the best possible manner. Mostly because I'm jealous. LOL

    RE Arnold: Another genetic mutant that also pushed the limits of roid usage. Not that I necessarily disagree with using roids but that's a different subject. Combine that with a genetically gifted individual with good lifting knowledge, a great diet, and tremendous work ethic and Arnold is what you get.

    exactly. Citing Arnold as an example is pretty silly. Even he now says his early routine was not smart. And how do you compare non-steroid methods against methods where steroids were possibly the key element to the success?
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
    Joe: Would you suggest a full break - or sort of a rotating break. No legs one week, no chest/arms another - or would that be counter-productive?

    Full break for one week, or cut volume and/or workload in half.

    Your CNS will thank you dearly. =)

    Thank you

    ETA :flowerforyou: for being so helpful
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    @bigbear: You obviously work very hard, eat right, and know how to throw some weight around but the point of the thread is basically right. I'll try and post some info tonight if I can get around to it. There might be some different points of philosophies but in-general training to soreness or past a certain point of fatigue on an everyday basis is no good. It can lead to injury and fatigue to your CNS. But it's not unheard of to have back to lifting days where you work the same muscle group to a certain degree to spark some growth, just not something that should be done all the time. What you do obviously works for you but you my friend might just be a genetic mutant; and I say that in the best possible manner. Mostly because I'm jealous. LOL

    RE Arnold: Another genetic mutant that also pushed the limits of roid usage. Not that I necessarily disagree with using roids but that's a different subject. Combine that with a genetically gifted individual with good lifting knowledge, a great diet, and tremendous work ethic and Arnold is what you get.

    exactly. Citing Arnold as an example is pretty silly. Even he now says his early routine was not smart. And how do you compare non-steroid methods against methods where steroids were possibly the key element to the success?

    To be fair, steroids are still only as good as the person. A lifter taking roids with poor programming, diet, and work ethic won't achieve much. Conversely, a person like Arnold, Jay Cutler, etc will have amazing results.
  • albinogorilla
    albinogorilla Posts: 1,056 Member
    My point is only based on personal experience, I wouldn't put any stock in a "study" that would measure soreness in relation to strength or mass gains, because it can't be measured. Asking a subject of a study how sore they are, is as arbitrary as conducting a study on how cute someone thinks a kitten is.

    My experience is as follows. I weight train, 3-4 times per week, for 45 min. Each muscle group once per week. I am always sore 24 hours later. If not, i know why, i can pinpoint what i did, what rep i stopped at when i had a few more left, etc. When i complete a set, the last few reps, i like to feel as though the muscle is tearing it self from the bone..........when i finish a set of weighted chins...If i dont feel like my lats are going to tear from my ribs on the last few reps...........i wont be sore the next day, and I won't improve. I also never do the same workout in a row. Maybe that is what you are after? That if you do the exact same thing everytime you shouldn't get sore? Possibly, but I do different exercises everytime i go in the gym. If I did the same thing everytime, maybe you would be right, but that would be incredibly boring for me.

    I don't know how I would back up something as immeasurable as this, other than the people I associate with are some big strong dudes..........and we all hurt the next day.
  • momma_a
    momma_a Posts: 117 Member
    Thanks for the post! :) I have been working out since April 1st, and have not taken any time off..have 1 rest day a week. I am actually afraid if I take time off, it would be harder to start back up again in more ways than one. I can't say that I have really been sore after workouts..maybe 3 times since I started. Again, thanks!
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    My point is only based on personal experience, I wouldn't put any stock in a "study" that would measure soreness in relation to strength or mass gains, because it can't be measured. Asking a subject of a study how sore they are, is as arbitrary as conducting a study on how cute someone thinks a kitten is.

    My experience is as follows. I weight train, 3-4 times per week, for 45 min. Each muscle group once per week. I am always sore 24 hours later. If not, i know why, i can pinpoint what i did, what rep i stopped at when i had a few more left, etc. When i complete a set, the last few reps, i like to feel as though the muscle is tearing it self from the bone..........when i finish a set of weighted chins...If i dont feel like my lats are going to tear from my ribs on the last few reps...........i wont be sore the next day, and I won't improve. I also never do the same workout in a row. Maybe that is what you are after? That if you do the exact same thing everytime you shouldn't get sore? Possibly, but I do different exercises everytime i go in the gym. If I did the same thing everytime, maybe you would be right, but that would be incredibly boring for me.

    I don't know how I would back up something as immeasurable as this, other than the people I associate with are some big strong dudes..........and we all hurt the next day.

    What I was referring to were just some high-end trainers, powerlifters, and their views on over-training, soreness, whatever we want to call it nowadays. DOM's sounds like something a middle-aged woman has. That's why I mentioned it does get philosophical to a point. What I've seen is that they generally tend to not train to get sore, not to say that they don't train to a high level of fatigue still.

    Bottom-line, you gotta do what works best for you. If you're getting results with what you're doing then more power to you. Keep doing it until you feel your workouts suffer, if it happens. Genetics plays a big role in this stuff.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    Joe, Awesome post bro. Great info and also very accurate. Thanks man!
  • Glucocorticoid
    Glucocorticoid Posts: 867 Member
    My point is only based on personal experience, I wouldn't put any stock in a "study" that would measure soreness in relation to strength or mass gains, because it can't be measured. Asking a subject of a study how sore they are, is as arbitrary as conducting a study on how cute someone thinks a kitten is.

    My experience is as follows. I weight train, 3-4 times per week, for 45 min. Each muscle group once per week. I am always sore 24 hours later. If not, i know why, i can pinpoint what i did, what rep i stopped at when i had a few more left, etc. When i complete a set, the last few reps, i like to feel as though the muscle is tearing it self from the bone..........when i finish a set of weighted chins...If i dont feel like my lats are going to tear from my ribs on the last few reps...........i wont be sore the next day, and I won't improve. I also never do the same workout in a row. Maybe that is what you are after? That if you do the exact same thing everytime you shouldn't get sore? Possibly, but I do different exercises everytime i go in the gym. If I did the same thing everytime, maybe you would be right, but that would be incredibly boring for me.

    I don't know how I would back up something as immeasurable as this, other than the people I associate with are some big strong dudes..........and we all hurt the next day.
    It's a mistake to think that simply because it works for you, that it is optimal. Clearly you can get away with your type of training, but don't automatically assume that soreness=growth. Because I'm willing to bet that you would grow just as well, if not better, without being so sore all the time. Genetics tend to make things complicated.

    By the way, soreness has much more to with connective tissue (being inflamed) than it does with muscle tissue/fibers.

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