Sub 20 minute 5K

scottb81

I'll state up front, I am not a runner right now, but I do know about how the body adapts and energy systems.

What I would do if i was in your shoes (i don't even know how much time you have to prepare). First I'd measure my RHR when I woke up for a few days and get the average. I would do something similar to this. Find out the pace. Which is 6.45mins per mile. If you maintain that pace it will be 20mins for 3.1miles. You want slightly under that. So I'd shoot for 6.35min per mile, this is 1.5mins per 1/4 mile.

What I would do now is... Run at that pace, until the my performance drops. Lets say I can run 3 laps on a track at 1.5min per lap. Then on lap 4 for it takes me 1.7mins. Shoot for total on time of 20mins. So i'd rest, recover and repeat untill total on time is 20mins. That would conclude my workout. This is where the RHR comes in to play. Every morning I'd check my RHR, if it's higher then normal, I wouldn't run that day untill my RHR is the same.

The primary energy system used for a 5k is aerobic. You can build the aerobic system much quicker and higher through volume with some speedwork such as you described topping it off.

When I say volume that doesn't mean just a whole bunch of slow running. Some is slow, some is medium, and some is at the best aerobic pace. It all contributes to building aerobic capacity which has to be in place before the speedwork will make any significant difference in race times.

The more volume one can run, without injury or overtraining, the faster and higher the aerobic capacity can be built as per Arthur Lydiard.

Just as in weightlifting, the principal of progressive overload applies. A volume that would kill someone today will be easy next year if that person keeps at it and consistently builds.

That's my view, it's about progressive overload regardless. What i am confused about is you saying that 5k is aerobic. In my mind, it would be on the verge of breaking your LT. I know sometimes terminology gets mixed up. So I will use energy systems for example, so there is no confusion.

Fat oxidation
lactic buffering
creatine phosphate.

I would assume 5k pace is between the LT zone and the creatine phosphate system.

It should be run somewhat above LT. The only way someone can run for 3 miles at that level is with a strong aerobic capacity since there is not a single intensity where aerobic stops and anaerobic starts. Both contribute. The creatine phosphate system is exhausted in less than 30 sec ( I think) and only is relevant for sprints.

The aerobic system has to be built so that lactate can be buffered allowing the body to continue to run at that intensity. When the aerobic capacity is low lactate will continue to build to the point that energy conversion is shut down and the intensity has to be lowered. Another way of looking at it is that a person can only incur so much oxygen debt when running above LT before they have to slow down.. A strong aerobic system allows them to run at a faster pace before they reach LT and begin to incur oxygen debt.

Are you using "building the aerobic system" interchangeably with VO2max? If you're referring to VO2max I agree. LT is a % of VO2max. The higher your VO2Max the higher you ca build your LT zone.

They are related but not the same. What I mean by aerobic system is the body's ability to transport oxygen to the working muscles and those muscles ability to use that oxygen with both glycogen and fat to create energy. Aerobic capacity includes VO2max as it consists of the heart's capacity to pump blood, volume of blood, and capillarization of working muscles. But it also includes the capacity of the muscles to store glycogen, mitochondrial density in the working muscles, and the ability of the muscles to utilize fat at faster speeds.

Aerobic training essentially shifts the LT to faster speeds. VO2max training will provide some, but limited, benefit as VO2max is largely genetically limited and can be trained fairly quickly (a few months). Continued aerobic training improves for years and will continue to raise running speed at LT allowing one to run faster without accumulating lactate or incurring oxygen debt.

scottb81

I'll state up front, I am not a runner right now, but I do know about how the body adapts and energy systems.

What I would do if i was in your shoes (i don't even know how much time you have to prepare). First I'd measure my RHR when I woke up for a few days and get the average. I would do something similar to this. Find out the pace. Which is 6.45mins per mile. If you maintain that pace it will be 20mins for 3.1miles. You want slightly under that. So I'd shoot for 6.35min per mile, this is 1.5mins per 1/4 mile.

What I would do now is... Run at that pace, until the my performance drops. Lets say I can run 3 laps on a track at 1.5min per lap. Then on lap 4 for it takes me 1.7mins. Shoot for total on time of 20mins. So i'd rest, recover and repeat untill total on time is 20mins. That would conclude my workout. This is where the RHR comes in to play. Every morning I'd check my RHR, if it's higher then normal, I wouldn't run that day untill my RHR is the same.

The primary energy system used for a 5k is aerobic. You can build the aerobic system much quicker and higher through volume with some speedwork such as you described topping it off.

When I say volume that doesn't mean just a whole bunch of slow running. Some is slow, some is medium, and some is at the best aerobic pace. It all contributes to building aerobic capacity which has to be in place before the speedwork will make any significant difference in race times.

The more volume one can run, without injury or overtraining, the faster and higher the aerobic capacity can be built as per Arthur Lydiard.

Just as in weightlifting, the principal of progressive overload applies. A volume that would kill someone today will be easy next year if that person keeps at it and consistently builds.

That's my view, it's about progressive overload regardless. What i am confused about is you saying that 5k is aerobic. In my mind, it would be on the verge of breaking your LT. I know sometimes terminology gets mixed up. So I will use energy systems for example, so there is no confusion.

Fat oxidation
lactic buffering
creatine phosphate.

I would assume 5k pace is between the LT zone and the creatine phosphate system.

It should be run somewhat above LT. The only way someone can run for 3 miles at that level is with a strong aerobic capacity since there is not a single intensity where aerobic stops and anaerobic starts. Both contribute. The creatine phosphate system is exhausted in less than 30 sec ( I think) and only is relevant for sprints.

The aerobic system has to be built so that lactate can be buffered allowing the body to continue to run at that intensity. When the aerobic capacity is low lactate will continue to build to the point that energy conversion is shut down and the intensity has to be lowered. Another way of looking at it is that a person can only incur so much oxygen debt when running above LT before they have to slow down.. A strong aerobic system allows them to run at a faster pace before they reach LT and begin to incur oxygen debt.

Are you using "building the aerobic system" interchangeably with VO2max? If you're referring to VO2max I agree. LT is a % of VO2max. The higher your VO2Max the higher you ca build your LT zone.

They are related but not the same. What I mean by aerobic system is the body's ability to transport oxygen to the working muscles and those muscles ability to use that oxygen with both glycogen and fat to create energy. Aerobic capacity includes VO2max as it consists of the heart's capacity to pump blood, volume of blood, and capillarization of working muscles. But it also includes the capacity of the muscles to store glycogen, mitochondrial density in the working muscles, and the ability of the muscles to utilize fat at faster speeds.

Aerobic training essentially shifts the LT to faster speeds. VO2max training will provide some, but limited, benefit as VO2max is largely genetically limited and can be trained fairly quickly (a few months). Continued aerobic training improves for years and will continue to raise running speed at LT allowing one to run faster without accumulating lactate or incurring oxygen debt.

Okay yes, i experienced this first hand myself. I want to be an endurance runner, I was working on that, but I was concerned about muscle mass and what not, so I decided to just focus on fat loss right now, then see how i look when I reach my goal. Then work on my endurance training. When I was doing my endurance training, I was doing 5min intervals in my aerobic zone, 2.5mins recovery.

Before I stopped doing the endurance training. My LT zone went up, What was my LT zone, was now part of my aerobic zone.

Here is a good, free, read by Arthur Lydiard that explains it much better than I can. http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/pdfs/al_training_eng.pdf

arc918

Bottom line, it doesn't matter how we define these runs.

Here is the magic formula for kicking *kitten*:

1) ~ 5% or so of your weekly mileage at a fast as hell pace (intervals/repeats/Vo2max)
2) ~ 10% or so of your weekly mileage at a solid pace (LT/tempo/threshold)
3) everything else at a modest to easy pace with some strides here and there
4) run lots of miles
5) run some more miles


Genetics plays a hand in the whole deal for sure.

IronmanPanda

Bottom line, it doesn't matter how we define these runs.

Here is the magic formula for kicking *kitten*:

1) ~ 5% or so of your weekly mileage at a fast as hell pace (intervals/repeats/Vo2max)
2) ~ 10% or so of your weekly mileage at a solid pace (LT/tempo/threshold)
3) everything else at a modest to easy pace with some strides here and there
4) run lots of miles
5) run some more miles


Genetics plays a hand in the whole deal for sure.

Pretty much this. No reason to over think it.

Run a lot, mostly easy sometimes hard.

Trail_Addict

Bottom line, it doesn't matter how we define these runs.

Here is the magic formula for kicking *kitten*:

1) ~ 5% or so of your weekly mileage at a fast as hell pace (intervals/repeats/Vo2max)
2) ~ 10% or so of your weekly mileage at a solid pace (LT/tempo/threshold)
3) everything else at a modest to easy pace with some strides here and there
4) run lots of miles
5) run some more miles


Genetics plays a hand in the whole deal for sure.

Man, that just seems so simple. (well said, buddy).

If it was just a matter of going out there and working harder, basing your efforts on theories, there would be far more people doing sub 20 5Ks and sub 40 10Ks.

On any given day, I can walk into the gym and be surrounded by a high percentage of buff dudes who follow time-tested training plans to achieve their desired results. But when you step up to the line at any local race, only a very small percentage of runners (who also follow time-tested training plans) will ever see those sub 20 times (<10%). There is certainly a 3rd dimension to it when you put down the paper and pencil, and actually put shoes on the ground. Not everyone can do it.

Azdak

I'll state up front, I am not a runner right now, but I do know about how the body adapts and energy systems.

What I would do if i was in your shoes (i don't even know how much time you have to prepare). First I'd measure my RHR when I woke up for a few days and get the average. I would do something similar to this. Find out the pace. Which is 6.45mins per mile. If you maintain that pace it will be 20mins for 3.1miles. You want slightly under that. So I'd shoot for 6.35min per mile, this is 1.5mins per 1/4 mile.

What I would do now is... Run at that pace, until the my performance drops. Lets say I can run 3 laps on a track at 1.5min per lap. Then on lap 4 for it takes me 1.7mins. Shoot for total on time of 20mins. So i'd rest, recover and repeat untill total on time is 20mins. That would conclude my workout. This is where the RHR comes in to play. Every morning I'd check my RHR, if it's higher then normal, I wouldn't run that day untill my RHR is the same.

The primary energy system used for a 5k is aerobic. You can build the aerobic system much quicker and higher through volume with some speedwork such as you described topping it off.

When I say volume that doesn't mean just a whole bunch of slow running. Some is slow, some is medium, and some is at the best aerobic pace. It all contributes to building aerobic capacity which has to be in place before the speedwork will make any significant difference in race times.

The more volume one can run, without injury or overtraining, the faster and higher the aerobic capacity can be built as per Arthur Lydiard.

Just as in weightlifting, the principal of progressive overload applies. A volume that would kill someone today will be easy next year if that person keeps at it and consistently builds.

That's my view, it's about progressive overload regardless. What i am confused about is you saying that 5k is aerobic. In my mind, it would be on the verge of breaking your LT. I know sometimes terminology gets mixed up. So I will use energy systems for example, so there is no confusion.

Fat oxidation
lactic buffering
creatine phosphate.

I would assume 5k pace is between the LT zone and the creatine phosphate system.

It should be run somewhat above LT. The only way someone can run for 3 miles at that level is with a strong aerobic capacity since there is not a single intensity where aerobic stops and anaerobic starts. Both contribute. The creatine phosphate system is exhausted in less than 30 sec ( I think) and only is relevant for sprints.

The aerobic system has to be built so that lactate can be buffered allowing the body to continue to run at that intensity. When the aerobic capacity is low lactate will continue to build to the point that energy conversion is shut down and the intensity has to be lowered. Another way of looking at it is that a person can only incur so much oxygen debt when running above LT before they have to slow down.. A strong aerobic system allows them to run at a faster pace before they reach LT and begin to incur oxygen debt.

Are you using "building the aerobic system" interchangeably with VO2max? If you're referring to VO2max I agree. LT is a % of VO2max. The higher your VO2Max the higher you ca build your LT zone.

They are related but not the same. What I mean by aerobic system is the body's ability to transport oxygen to the working muscles and those muscles ability to use that oxygen with both glycogen and fat to create energy. Aerobic capacity includes VO2max as it consists of the heart's capacity to pump blood, volume of blood, and capillarization of working muscles. But it also includes the capacity of the muscles to store glycogen, mitochondrial density in the working muscles, and the ability of the muscles to utilize fat at faster speeds.

Aerobic training essentially shifts the LT to faster speeds. VO2max training will provide some, but limited, benefit as VO2max is largely genetically limited and can be trained fairly quickly (a few months). Continued aerobic training improves for years and will continue to raise running speed at LT allowing one to run faster without accumulating lactate or incurring oxygen debt.

Okay yes, i experienced this first hand myself. I want to be an endurance runner, I was working on that, but I was concerned about muscle mass and what not, so I decided to just focus on fat loss right now, then see how i look when I reach my goal. Then work on my endurance training. When I was doing my endurance training, I was doing 5min intervals in my aerobic zone, 2.5mins recovery.

Before I stopped doing the endurance training. My LT zone went up, What was my LT zone, was now part of my aerobic zone.

Here is a good, free, read by Arthur Lydiard that explains it much better than I can. http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/pdfs/al_training_eng.pdf

Lydiard also said to never wear socks when you run and that, in the winter, you should run in a tracksuit made of reindeer leather. Great coach, but he was also a crazy old *kitten*.

creature275

yea that not too hard when your thinking about it from an athletes point of view, 5k is what 3.1 miles right so even at something as slow as a 6:30 pace gets the job done with that, I run one mile in 5:12 so im assuming I could crank that out in about 18 minutes or so but ive never timed 3.1 miles always either 1 - 3 - 5 - 10 - or 13.1 point is just train up and you should knock that out just fine

thanks Superman. now tell us again about the time you stopped the earth from rotating and saved us all.

all Im sayin is that if you train seriously for it then it shouldnt be an issue, obviously the guy has it in his sights so im assuming hes a decent runner, I dont even consider myself a great runner, good sure but great not by a long shot I wouldnt even be able to compete at a college level those guys are ****ing insane runners. but a sub 20 isnt an act of god it just takes a little work and thats all im saying. as for saving you...eh not necessarily save but I do work in special ops and I am in Afghanistan right now so while your there being a ****ing douche-bag im over here, so your ****ing welcome for your freedom and safety

I'm 42 and only started running 9 months ago, previous to that it was PE in High School. I'm also not genetically gifted so for me it is a huge deal.

just train hard my friend all it takes is heart and dedication if you have those two things and push yourself every run you will get that sub 20 and have that under your belt forever

Unfortunately, genetics have a way of making a mockery of your last statement.

IIRC, even Florence Griffith-Joyner could not run a sub-20:00 5K.

I think the general discussion assumes that someone has the inherent ability to run a sub-20 min 5K, and is looking for some specfic training methods to help achieve that goal.

I never had good genetics, my father is overweight and diabetic, I was overweight as a kid and when I was just starting out 8 years ago I could only run one mile in 7 minutes then die and after years of hard work, running till I was puking I managed to become a good runner and do a 5K in 18 minutes hard work and lots of it and nothing can stop you thats all there is to it

j_courter

Lydiard also said to never wear socks when you run and that, in the winter, you should run in a tracksuit made of reindeer leather. Great coach, but he was also a crazy old *kitten*.

:laugh: i need to get myself one of those reindeer suits! i'll bet i could break 20 minutes in my next 5k!

GaryRussell123456

Got a new PR yesterday. 21:37. Still got beat by a man pushing a baby buggy though!

I'm now up to 50+ MPW and I'm sure this is helping.

Di3012

Got a new PR yesterday. 21:37. Still got beat by a man pushing a baby buggy though!

I'm now up to 50+ MPW and I'm sure this is helping.

LOL Gary, we have a bloke that does that in the Parkrun I sometimes run in. He is bloody speedy with it too!!

That would be weird if it happened to be the same person who just decided to do a different Parkrun wouldn't it! :noway:

dwclaire

THIS THREAD HAD DEPRESSED ME ha
i did 5km in 45 minutes back in feb and now i can do it in 37 minutes.

this is almost twice the time you are all talking about!!!!! argh!!!

you must be working hard so super well done for that

mikeyrp

All runs are good runs

Di3012

THIS THREAD HAD DEPRESSED ME ha
i did 5km in 45 minutes back in feb and now i can do it in 37 minutes.

this is almost twice the time you are all talking about!!!!! argh!!!

you must be working hard so super well done for that

Hell, you have an eight minute improvement achieved there! WTG!!!

InTheInbetween

There is some FANTASTIC advice here! I typically run for distance but have learned I need to work on some speed (and strength both physically and cardiovascularly) areas to improve my overall half and full marathons. Personally I find the distance races and 5k's are a whole different ball game! I'd like to consider myself fairly "adept" at both though so i've decided to tackle some 5 and 10k's and really work toward improving my speed there. So far my fastest 5K is 29:00 so I've got a ways to go yet lol!

Thank you to those with the honestly productive advice!

NoxDineen

It's definitely possible. The fastest man at a 5k at PyCon (programming conference) ran it in under 19 minutes. Fastest woman was 24ish min. So... I'm also training to break 20 min and represent the ladies. We're already under represented as programmers.

Keep us up to date with what works for you. Maybe fartleks?

stevenrichardson7773

Last year my first 5k was 22:06 I was only running around 20 miles a week. Just running 20 MPW I was able to get down in the the mid to lower 20's. I started to increase my miles till I was avraging around 30 to 40 MPW. My first 5k was in Feb 2012 I broke 20 in May of 2012 and actually broke 19 a few months later. The most miles I ever put in a week was 54 and that was preparing for a marathon. My avrage is still 30 to 40 Miles per week and I include the following, Tempo workouts 4 to 8 Miles, Long Runs once a week 10 - 20 miles, speed days which usualy total around 6 miles and a couple eays run days. It is possible to go from 22 to sub 20 in a few months if you know your body and how to push it. You have the be extreemly motivated but cautious not to over do it. I train on the edge and have to take a recovery week every couple months usualy right after I peak. I ran two marathons last year on 40mpw with a decent time.

MinimalistShoeAddict

I'm currently training to do this. I don't even know if it's possible, but I'm training hard (40 miles per week). 9 months ago I couldn't even run to catch a bus.

Anyone else out there with this goal or already achieved it? I would love to hear about your experiences.

I started running last fall. My first 5k was completed in 27:23 last December. Last month I ran a 5k in 20:16 after completing a 10k race 47 minutes before that (in 43:03). Naturally that last 16 seconds is bugging me so I will make another attempt at the 20 minute barrier this coming weekend! Unfortunately I may have to dodge some Halloween costumes but I feel good about my chances.

I think my 5k improvement over the last year was helped most by my increasing running mileage (I completed my first marathon last week).

Good luck!

MinimalistShoeAddict

Haven't ran sub 20 since high school, but I'm training harder than ever, lost some weight, sounds like a great goal to me! There is an article in Running Times (June) about PR'ing for 5Ks after training for & racing a marathon. Sounds like the more miles the better!

Thanks! It was a great article! My favorite part was the last paragraph:

"While categorizing a marathon as pain-free would be disingenuous, the pain associated with 5K racing is different, stronger and more intense. Because of this, Mahon believes that following a marathon, athletes need to practice hurting again. He says, "Learning how to hurt at higher levels for shorter durations is something that takes a little extra time for the marathoner to develop. They are used to 70-80 percent max-speed pain, and to challenge their systems at higher speeds for shorter times can take some time to callous." Gradually increasing your interval distances at goal pace will help you become reacclimated to the particular type of suffering associated with 5Ks."

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/magic-marathon-5k-conversion?page=single

Zekela

A well raced 5K is wall to wall pain. 95% of max heart rate = OUCH!

Agreed with a ****ing two thumbs up!!! It is like self mutilation!!!!

mlogantra76

I noticed this was an old thread. Thanks for reviving it as I hadn't read it. I started getting in shape and relosing 50 of the 120 lbs I had lost 10 years ago this past January. I had given up running due to bad knees a few years ago so I did not run. I did strength training, Spin, Kickboxing, etc... Fast forward to June when I had lost most of the weight, I loosely followed the C25k program. And, I found my knees could handle it! Anyways, I ran my first 5k on August 10th. I ran it at 32:08. Since then, I have gotten to 27:30 but really average 28:30. I am looking to improve this time and this thread really has helped. My plan is to increase my mileage. Right now I'm only doing under 20 miles a week. This thread is telling me that I need to increase that. I am continuing to strength train as I believe it is helping my knees. In my area and at my age group, my time has earned me several 2nd and 3rd place finishes. I am not super fast by any means but I am near the top at many races... I'm thinking I should be able to improve quite a bit since my current mileage is so low. Years ago, I was into cycling long distances and did several centuries so I am used to endurance like events. I totally agree with 5k races being difficult. You really have to push yourself and run all out. For me, its all in my head in terms of telling myself to keep running and not walk or slow down. It such a short amount of time in the end(under 30 minutes) so I try to tell myself it will be over even sooner:)