Fact or Fiction?

RonSwanson66

The body only needs 40-60 grams of protein to build and maintain muscle mass. You can however become toxic on too much protein.

^^this. unlike fat and carbs, your body does not store extra protein. it basically uses what it needs from the protein that you consume, and gets rid of the rest.

Do you belong to a different species that doesn't have the capacity for gluconeogenesis?

carld256

Intuitively, I would think it's not true because we're hunter/gatherers biologically. We could get protein only several meals per week, or less. It would behoove our body to store it.

I'm pretty sure we don't store protein.

What do you think muscles are made of and where do you think the body gets protein when it doesn't have enough from dietary sources?

Excess protein is stored as fat, period, end of story.

RonSwanson66

Intuitively, I would think it's not true because we're hunter/gatherers biologically. We could get protein only several meals per week, or less. It would behoove our body to store it.

I'm pretty sure we don't store protein.

What do you think muscles are made of and where do you think the body gets protein when it doesn't have enough from dietary sources?

Excess protein is stored as fat, period, end of story.

Not even close.

while the biochemical pathways for the conversion of protein to fat do exist in humans, the likelihood of it ever happening in any but the most absurdly non-physiological circumstances are effectively nil.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/excess-protein-and-fat-storage-qa.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/how-we-get-fat.html

waldo56

The body only needs 40-60 grams of protein to build and maintain muscle mass. You can however become toxic on too much protein. I had a friend how was having 80-120 grams per day. He became lethargic, tired, jaundice and kept doing it. Finally doctors realized he was poisoning himself. The excess protein caused his liver to overwork and thus his liver shut down and subsequent organs. If it would have been a few weeks longer before treated, he probably would not be around.
Stick with 40-60, that will be plenty.
And, to help breakdown proteins, drink some apple cider vinegar. It helps increase with protein digestion.

Not sure if serious.....

Is your friend 10 lbs?

Ridiculously high levels over a long period of time has been linked to some kidney issues, but ridiculously high meaning 3x+ bodyweight in g, NOT 80-120g.

If someone is getting ill from that small of an amount, they are either smller than midget tiny (thus it isn't a small amount) or they have some sort of other disease that makes their protein utilization abnormal.

Groups like the Inuit don't have issues at all, and their natural diet has A LOT of protein well into the levels that are considered "unsafe".

Pretty much any decent medical source or nutritionist will agree that up to 30-35% of your daily calories from protein is perfectly safe.

If you are weightlifting and eating less than 1/g/lb LBM you are spinning your wheels, you are not taking in enough protein to repair your muscles at an optimal rate; a singificant increase in recovery and growth rate (if in a surplus) is expected if you up your protein intake.

Think about it, every winter when all the plants die, prehistoric humans had meat to eat and little else. If "high" protein intake (80-120g is LOW not high) would poison them, I'm curious as to how the human race survived in areas with winters before the advent of civilization and things like grain cultivation.

rileysowner

I haven't looked at stuff on a per meal basis, the daily nitrogen balance is dependent on calorie balance for one thing - ie are you gaining / losing / maintaining fat and generally on the grams protein per lb body weight.

"The key issues are the rate at which the gastrointestinal tract can
absorb amino acids from dietary proteins (1.3 to 10 g/h) and the liver’s capacity
to deaminate proteins and produce urea for excretion of excess nitrogen"

according to http://home.exetel.com.au/surreality/health/A Review of Issues of Dietary Protein Intake in Humans.pdf

I can see where a limit of 10g/h might lead to 20g per meal on the basis of two hours to absorb it.

That would be assuming it just takes 2 hours to digest a meal. The reality is that full digestion takes a lot longer than 2 hours. Probably up to 8 (maybe more) depending on the meal make-up. So a meal higher in protein would simply take longer to digest.

RonSwanson66

The body only needs 40-60 grams of protein to build and maintain muscle mass. You can however become toxic on too much protein. I had a friend how was having 80-120 grams per day. He became lethargic, tired, jaundice and kept doing it. Finally doctors realized he was poisoning himself. The excess protein caused his liver to overwork and thus his liver shut down and subsequent organs. If it would have been a few weeks longer before treated, he probably would not be around.
Stick with 40-60, that will be plenty.
And, to help breakdown proteins, drink some apple cider vinegar. It helps increase with protein digestion.

Not sure if serious.....

Is your friend 10 lbs?

There are some extremely rare metabolic disorders that result in the inability to properly metabolize protein. I'm guessing this is probably the case (if he isn't just making things up).

Not at all relevant to the general population.

autumnk921

Myth:

http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/

Thank you for this link....It really helps answer the question of amount of protein per meal....:happy:

happyfeetrebel1

My dietician said I need at LEAST 80g per day, but closer to 100 would be optimal

tlhorsley

Myth:

http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/

^^ I think this seems to be the most beneficial thing I have read. Explained well.

Sounds as if I want to have a 60g protein meal or shake then my body is going to use it and not throw 20-30g of it away.

carld256

Not even close.

while the biochemical pathways for the conversion of protein to fat do exist in humans, the likelihood of it ever happening in any but the most absurdly non-physiological circumstances are effectively nil.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/excess-protein-and-fat-storage-qa.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/how-we-get-fat.html

I don't want to get into a link war but a quick google turned numerous sites that explained exactly how the body goes about turning protein into fat.

RonSwanson66

Not even close.

while the biochemical pathways for the conversion of protein to fat do exist in humans, the likelihood of it ever happening in any but the most absurdly non-physiological circumstances are effectively nil.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/excess-protein-and-fat-storage-qa.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/how-we-get-fat.html

I don't want to get into a link war but a quick google turned numerous sites that explained exactly how the body goes about turning protein into fat.

Post them.

carld256

Since protein cannot be stored as such, the body converts the extra protein into fat deposits. In this indirect manner, extra protein contributes to weight gain.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/454872-does-excess-protein-get-stored-as-fat/#ixzz1x4cWUlb1

What happens to the protein:

It is broken down into building blocks known as peptides.

Then, it is further broken down and it becomes amino acids.

The amino acids are absorbed through the small intestine's lining and enter the blood stream.

From here, some of the amino acids build the body's protein stores.

Excess amino acids are converted to fats and sugars and follow the paths described above.

http://1stholistic.com/nutrition/hol_nutr_does-excess-protein-turn-to-fat.htm

It is also possible for fat cells to take up glucose and amino acids, which have been absorbed into the bloodstream after a meal, and convert those into fat molecules. The conversion of carbohydrates or protein into fat is 10 times less efficient than simply storing fat in a fat cell, but the body can do it.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/human-biology/fat-cell2.htm

That'll do for a start.

RonSwanson66

Since protein cannot be stored as such, the body converts the extra protein into fat deposits. In this indirect manner, extra protein contributes to weight gain.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/454872-does-excess-protein-get-stored-as-fat/#ixzz1x4cWUlb1

What happens to the protein:

It is broken down into building blocks known as peptides.

Then, it is further broken down and it becomes amino acids.

The amino acids are absorbed through the small intestine's lining and enter the blood stream.

From here, some of the amino acids build the body's protein stores.

Excess amino acids are converted to fats and sugars and follow the paths described above.

http://1stholistic.com/nutrition/hol_nutr_does-excess-protein-turn-to-fat.htm

It is also possible for fat cells to take up glucose and amino acids, which have been absorbed into the bloodstream after a meal, and convert those into fat molecules. The conversion of carbohydrates or protein into fat is 10 times less efficient than simply storing fat in a fat cell, but the body can do it.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/human-biology/fat-cell2.htm

That'll do for a start.

And?

If you actually read the article I posted, he explicitly states that the biological pathway exists.

Oh yeah, the same holds for protein. Protein isn’t going to be converted to and stored as fat. But eat excess protein and the body will burn more protein for energy (and less carbs and fat). Which means that the other nutrients have to get stored. Which means that excess protein can still make you fat, just not by direct conversion. Rather, it does it by ensuring that the fat you’re eating gets stored.

Of course protein also has the highest thermic effect, more of the incoming calories are burned off. So excess protein tends to have the least odds of making you fat under any conditions; but excess protein can make you fat. Just not by direct conversion to fat; rather it’s indirectly by decreasing the oxidation of other nutrients.

Let me put this in perspective. Despite a lot of claims to the contrary, the actual conversion of carbohydrate to fat in humans under normal dietary conditions is small approaching insignificant (a topic I discussed at least briefly in Nutrient Intake, Nutrient Storage and Nutrient Oxidation).

Make no mistake, the conversion of carbs to fat (a process called de-novo lipogenesis or DNL) can happen but the requirements for it to happen significantly are fairly rare in humans under most conditions (to discuss this in detail would require a full article, interested readers can search Medline for work by Hellerstein or Acheson on the topic).

At least one of those is when daily carbohydrate intake is just massive, fulfilling over 100% of the daily maintenance energy requirements. And only then when muscle glycogen is full. For an average sized male you’re looking at 700-900 grams of carbohydrate daily for multiple days running.

Which means that the odds of protein being converted to fat in any quantitatively meaningful fashion is simply not going to happen. Certain amino acids are processed to a great degree in the liver (as I discuss in The Protein Book) and this can produce glucose, ketones and a few other things. But triglycerides (the storage form of ‘fat’) isn’t one of them.

I imagine that if protein were going to be converted to fat, it would first have to be converted to glucose and only if the amount produced were then in excess of daily maintenance requirements would there be conversion to fat. But as noted above, this simply isn’t going to happen under any even reasonably normal circumstances. No human could eat enough protein on a daily basis for it to occur.

What will happen, as discussed in Nutrient Intake, Nutrient Storage and Nutrient Oxidation. is that amino acid oxidation (burning for energy) will go up somewhat although, as discussed in that article, it’s a slow process and isn’t complete.

So, as noted above, while the pathway exists for protein to be stored as fat, and folks will continue to claim that ‘excess protein just turns to fat’, it’s really just not going to happen under any sort of real-world situation. Certainly we can dream up odd theoretical situations where it might but those won’t apply to 99.9% of real-world situations.

carld256

Yes, I read the link you posted, and I'll also go with ... and?

Your link says the pathway exists but that it's not going to be used in any normal situation. The articles I linked to, unless I misread, don't make that disclaimer.

RonSwanson66

Yes, I read the link you posted, and I'll also go with ... and?

Your link says the pathway exists but that it's not going to be used in any normal situation. The articles I linked to, unless I misread, don't make that disclaimer.

Lies of omission.

And this part is inaccurate.

Excess amino acids are converted to fats and sugars

There is no metabolic process that converts amino acids directly into fats. Amino acids can converted to sugar (via gluconeogenesis) and the sugar can then be converted to fat (de novo lipogenesis), but both these processes are extremely inefficient.

In order for protein to be stored as fat you would have to consume a surplus of calories, and have that consist almost entirely of protein. Due to the satiating properties of protein, this is practically impossible.

lifeisgoodgirlmt

This is fiction. Anything you eat, you digest, unless you have an intolerance/allergy to it, in which case it passes undigested into your colon. For most people, this means the only thing they don't digest is fiber, and for those who are lactose intolerant, lactose. As food travels through the gut, it is digested by proteins special proteins and gastric juices, with carbs, protein, and fat each being digested by proteins and gastric juices specific to them...aka, a carb is digested by carb specific enzymes, gastric juices, etc. The question truly is, is protein beyond a certain point necessary, and the answer is no it is not. While you will digest the protein, eventually EVERYTHING is turned into sugar as this is the only thing the body can use for fuel other than ketones from fat. After everything is digested in the gut, it is transported either to the liver or to the blood stream in the form of its sugar constituents. So, excess protein, although you would have to eat a lot of it, is still excess calories. But, if you are still within your calorie amount, then you are fine. That being said, you only need so much protein in a day, so the rest just becomes fuel, not essential to building and maintaining body structure and function. Just some food for thought from an exercise physiology and nutrition graduate student....I hope that helps!

tross0924

That's right. It is flat out impossible to gain weight eating even 20,000 calories a day of protein. Those 20,000 calories are only stored as fat at 1/10 the ratio of fat so you're only storing 2,000 calories which your body would burn through and not have anything to store anyway. But if you eat 18 gram of carbs the process is super hyper over inflated and that 20,000 calories in protein is converted into 5 lbs of High Fructose corn syrup. Which is then stored as 5 kilos of fat. Once that happens insulin resistance is automatically turned on by your genomes (ya know the little guys with the funny hats that stand in the garden) and at that point you metabolism is shot. Once this happens if you eat more that 12 calories a day your body will store every calorie it can as fat and you won't lose any weight. Never fear though if you go back to eating the 20,000 calories of protein and zero carbs again your body will reset and you'll lose weight again.

Hope that helped

RonSwanson66

genomes (ya know the little guys with the funny hats that stand in the garden)

Lost it.