How important is the post-workout protein?

Jugie12

I aim to be counted with the best of them - Jamie Eason, Tosca Reno, Jessica Putnam, Jenna Renee, etc etc...

So if these ladies say to drink a protein shake 30mins to an hour after a workout, by golly, I'm gonna do it. I'll do what they do till I get what they got! Besides, they are the pros, not me, and this is one of those things where you can SEE if someone knows their stuff or not. I always try to get in some protein and good carbs within an hour.

Ambrogio1

For me this is more of a financial question more then anything, but nice to know if I don't go running to the kitchen or if there is some lapse in time I won't fall apart. If I don't have to waste money on bcaa or pr shakes I won't

Glucocorticoid

I've read that it would be beneficial to drink a protein shake right after working out.

Currently, I workout from 5 - 6 am, eat breakfast at 8 am, and have a protein shake for my mid-morning snack at 10:30 am. Am I doing myself a disservice by not having the protein shake right after working out? How important is this really? I am just trying to decide if I should flip my meals and have the protein shake before breakfast. (ps - breakfast is usually cereal/oats or yogurt with berries).

Any suggestions? Thanks.

It's going to be FAR, FAR more important that you hit your calorie and macronutrient totals by the end of the day, and it's also going to be far more important for you to consume enough protein, vs timing these nutrients.

^ This

adet983

i used to hammer protein after every workout felt like if i missed it my workout was for nothing back when i was in great shape in college........after i lost all weight and started lifting again and have gotten back in that shape....without taking anything at all pre or post.... ive noticed i've seen way better results now from getting my protein from a clean diet high in protein than i did taking suppliments....not as strong but more defined...could just be me.

LexyDB

If you can put the flamethrowers down for a second and realise that no one has mentioned carbohydrates for post work-out with the protein. Don't you think assisting the absorbtion is a necessity?

TiffanyWasmer

The boys went CRAZY!!!! To the original poster: if you are anything like me, I'm doing good to remember my protein period...not to mention at a certain time of day Like all things, I'm sure it gets easier with routine and that you will learn what works best for YOUR body.
Boys...play nice

JNick77

my trainer told me to "drink it within 30 minutes or you are wasting your workout."

Fire him.

Kind of agree there. Go to your trainer for training advice, IF (big IF) he's / she's good at it but I would typically steer clear of nutrition advice from a trainer. In most cases that's really not what they study. I'd read-up on your own and / or hire a good nutritionist.

Sidesteal

If you can put the flamethrowers down for a second and realise that no one has mentioned carbohydrates for post work-out with the protein. Don't you think assisting the absorbtion is a necessity?

Not at all.

Carbohydrates will assist in glycogen replenishment but in most situations, glycogen replenishment happens on it's own during your next meal which for most of us, will fall in between workouts and allow replenishment to happen on it's own course.

If you are an endurance athlete training in a circumstance that requires rapid replenishment, then absolutely.

Acg67

If you can put the flamethrowers down for a second and realise that no one has mentioned carbohydrates for post work-out with the protein. Don't you think assisting the absorbtion is a necessity?

Assuming an adequate amount of protein, added carbs aren't going to do much for MPS or MBP

JaySpice

I think I am not misquoting anything. It is literally the first thing out of his mouth. See here:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=145332551

EDIT: I'll try to stop being an *kitten*.

Is that what he usually sounds like.....or is he doped up?

ArroganceInStep

Just from a practical standpoint, if you drink a protein shake (and lets take this to the extreme for argument's sake) immediately before your workout, what happens to that protein in the time it took you to work out?

Wouldn't it depend on the type of protein shake? I would think that a 100% Whey or Hydrolized Whey would digest faster than a Casein or Egg protein mix.

Nice post Acg.

Dr. John Berardi posted his own work with Intermittent Fasting on his site PrecisionNutrition.com.

Even when it's fully digested, what happens to it? What does it get used for? Is it different when it comes to someone who exercises regularly?

ahamm002

Care to point to a single study that doesn't use fasted endurance athletes? Not even remotely relevant for weight-training in a fed state.

Post workout nutrition is a heavily studied area. If you can't find a single study that doesn't use fasted endurance athletes then you didn't search very hard. Regardless, no study is perfect and you can always find some fault if you look hard enough. So instead of taking the easy road by just criticizing the studies posted by others, why don't you actually support your own point for a change?

LOL

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. YOU are the one claiming that it's important. YOU are the one that needs to support the claim. Appeals to authority (especially when that authority is a nutjob who makes his living selling this ****) don't count.

There have been literally thousands of studies (most funded by supplement companies) and not a single one that I've seen has used protocols relevant to fed trainees.

Ingestion of amino acids after resistance exercise has been shown at many different time points in several studies to stimulate increases in muscle protein synthesis, cause minimal changes in protein breakdown and increase overall protein balance. It has not been conclusively determined what time point is optimal. Similar changes have been found for studies that have administered amino acids alone or with carbohydrate immediately upon completion of an acute exercise bout, 1 h after completion, 2 h after completion and 3 h after completion. Interestingly, ingesting nutrients before the exercise bout may have the most benefit of all the time points.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/t067456j53773760/fulltext.html

The study you posted quite clearly supports peri-workout protein supplementation. It's not surprising that there aren't any major difference in supplementing before or a few hours afterward. But training at 5am and then not eating protein until almost lunch is probably suboptimal.

BTW, as usual you still haven't said what your stance on this issue is (just trolling?). And it's strange that your study supported peri-workout nutrition when it sounds like you're arguing that it isn't important.

ahamm002

Effect of protein supplement timing on strength, power and body compositional changes in experienced resistance trained men. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2009

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19478342

Thank you. The study only had 30or so people but it's still interesting. I would question if the groups were simply eating plenty of protein before and/or after anway. Obviously protein doesn't have to come in a supplement form.

Maybe you could give Swanson some instructions on how to do MEDLINE searches?

LexyDB

If you can put the flamethrowers down for a second and realise that no one has mentioned carbohydrates for post work-out with the protein. Don't you think assisting the absorbtion is a necessity?

Not at all.

Carbohydrates will assist in glycogen replenishment but in most situations, glycogen replenishment happens on it's own during your next meal which for most of us, will fall in between workouts and allow replenishment to happen on it's own course.

If you are an endurance athlete training in a circumstance that requires rapid replenishment, then absolutely.

Really? So the carbohydrates don't assist protein transport to the muscles then?

Acg67

Effect of protein supplement timing on strength, power and body compositional changes in experienced resistance trained men. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2009

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19478342

Thank you. The study only had 30or so people but it's still interesting. I would question if the groups were simply eating plenty of protein before and/or after anway. Obviously protein doesn't have to come in a supplement form.

Maybe you could give Swanson some instructions on how to do MEDLINE searches?

The findings of this study were unable to support the benefits of pre and post exercise
ingestion of a 42 g protein supplement compared to a morning and evening ingestion of the same
protein supplement during 10 weeks of resistance training in resistance trained men. Although
both supplement groups significantly increased upper- and lower-body strength and power, no
between group differences in any strength or power measure were seen. Furthermore,
considering that no differences in strength and power performances were observed between CTR
and either of the protein supplement groups, it appears that if dietary protein intake is at or
exceeds recommended levels for a strength/power athlete (1.6 g·kg-1) that additional protein
intake from a supplement, regardless of its timing, may not result in further performance gains.
In addition, all groups were in a positive nitrogen balance indicating that protein intakes in this
study were sufficient to meet the protein needs of these subjects.

Previous studies from our laboratory demonstrated that protein intakes at or above the
recommended levels for strength/power athletes do not augment lean body mass, power or
strength gains (Hoffman et al., 2006; 2007). The results from this study confirm those previous
results and further indicate that the timing of the protein supplement ingestion does not provide any additional benefit for strength and power gains, and lean tissue accruement in resistancetrained
athletes. However, the results of this study are also consistent with previous studies that
demonstrated a trend towards greater strength improvements in resistance trained subjects
consuming a daily protein intake that was greater than recommended levels for strength power
athletes (Hoffman et al., 2006).

Although several studies have shown that protein intake
close to exercise session is important in maximizing muscle mass and strength gains (Anderson
et al., 2005, Cribb and Hayes, 2006; Esmark et al., 2001; Hulmi et al., 2008), other investigations
have failed to support this hypothesis (Candow et al., 2006; Williams et al., 2001). However,
none of these studies examined experienced resistance-trained athletes. Subjects were either
recreationally trained or untrained. This study appears to be the first to examine the effects of
protein timing in experienced resistance trained athletes.

Sidesteal

If you can put the flamethrowers down for a second and realise that no one has mentioned carbohydrates for post work-out with the protein. Don't you think assisting the absorbtion is a necessity?

Not at all.

Carbohydrates will assist in glycogen replenishment but in most situations, glycogen replenishment happens on it's own during your next meal which for most of us, will fall in between workouts and allow replenishment to happen on it's own course.

If you are an endurance athlete training in a circumstance that requires rapid replenishment, then absolutely.

Really? So the carbohydrates don't assist protein transport to the muscles then?

To my knowledge, the following things are true. If I'm not correct on this, I'll gladly look at why, given the info:

A) There are non insulin dependent pathways for amino acid transport
and
There is a protein threshold at which further addition of carbohydrate does absolutely nothing to increase transport.

In other words, the protein itself is enough, assuming reasonable dosage.

EDIT: I have nothing to support A) above. As for B: http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/293/3/E833.short

ArroganceInStep

It seems you and I are of different positions quite frequently today!

I've also read a study that demonstrated that you basically had a two hour window to get most of the benefit out of a post-workout protein shake, but I don't have time to try and look up the reference right now.

The study you posted quite clearly supports peri-workout protein supplementation. It's not surprising that there aren't any major difference in supplementing before or a few hours afterward. But training at 5am and then not eating protein until almost lunch is probably suboptimal.

I agree with your the second quote, which I think expands upon the first quote to make the take away more meaningful.

My takeaway, because if it's too complicated I get confused: Eat enough protein. If you're on an extended fasting period...don't workout in the middle of your fast or you'll crash and burn.

^ - Easy to follow, and makes sense from a non-science-y perspective

essenceofk

I try to drink one after an intense workout within 30 minutes. But if not (ie have to go to the store after the gym, etc, etc) I try to do the 2 hr window, as that's whats the recommendation on the shakes. I also as a health care professional and my understanding of usage of muscles, etc, it makes more sense here is how I justify it...my muscles would benefit from being fed when they are hungry, LOL, and they are most likely hungry which is after a work out (I can't eat before a workout even a cardio workout). The same thing that we do when feeding our bodies. I understand the debate but for me it's just a simple common sense thing that makes sense to my non-exercise professional brain. I am a mom with a busy schedule and I want to get/stay fit.

Acg67

If you can put the flamethrowers down for a second and realise that no one has mentioned carbohydrates for post work-out with the protein. Don't you think assisting the absorbtion is a necessity?

Not at all.

Carbohydrates will assist in glycogen replenishment but in most situations, glycogen replenishment happens on it's own during your next meal which for most of us, will fall in between workouts and allow replenishment to happen on it's own course.

If you are an endurance athlete training in a circumstance that requires rapid replenishment, then absolutely.

Really? So the carbohydrates don't assist protein transport to the muscles then?

To my knowledge, the following things are true. If I'm not correct on this, I'll gladly look at why, given the info:

A) There are non insulin dependent pathways for amino acid transport
and
There is a protein threshold at which further addition of carbohydrate does absolutely nothing to increase transport.

In other words, the protein itself is enough, assuming reasonable dosage.

EDIT: I have nothing to support A) above. As for B: http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/293/3/E833.short

Also

Carbohydrate does not augment exercise-induced protein accretion versus protein alone. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2011 Jul;43(7):1154-61

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21131864

CONCLUSIONS:

Our data suggest that insulin is not additive or synergistic to rates of MPS or MPB when CHO is coingested with a dose of protein that maximally stimulates rates of MPS



Disassociation between the effects of amino acids and insulin on signaling, ubiquitin ligases, and protein turnover in human muscle

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/295/3/E595.full

"However, it was surprising that adding insulin at higher than systemic postabsorptive concentrations had no further effects on MPS or LPS. We cannot account for these differences except to raise the possibility that in our studies the stimulatory effects of amino acids stimulated protein synthesis to a maximal extent and that further addition of insulin had no additional effect

RonSwanson66

Effect of protein supplement timing on strength, power and body compositional changes in experienced resistance trained men. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2009

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19478342

Thank you. The study only had 30or so people but it's still interesting. I would question if the groups were simply eating plenty of protein before and/or after anway. Obviously protein doesn't have to come in a supplement form.

Maybe you could give Swanson some instructions on how to do MEDLINE searches?

Adorable. Especially when the only reference you've brought to the table so far is "Loloquin sez"

You think Medline is the only database containing peer reviewed research? What about PubMed? Google Scholar?


If you had actually bothered to read the link, you would've seen that it's a research review of over 70 studies, published in the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition (one of the top academic journals in the field).

ahamm002

Is that what he usually sounds like.....or is he doped up?

worse, he's Canadian

ahamm002

If you had actually bothered to read the link, you would've seen that it's a research review of over 70 studies, published in the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition (one of the top academic journals in the field).

Yep, and it supports Peri-workout protein intake. You still haven't stated what your stance on this issue is BTW. Do you disagree that peri-workout protein is important? If so why link an article that supports it???

RonSwanson66

If you had actually bothered to read the link, you would've seen that it's a research review of over 70 studies, published in the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition (one of the top academic journals in the field).

Yep, and it supports Peri-workout protein intake. You still haven't stated what your stance on this issue is BTW. Do you disagree that peri-workout protein is important? If so why link an article that supports it???

I've stated this on several occasions. Timing of protein intake is irrelevant given adequate daily intake. Barring nonsensical strawmen (ie training fasted and then waiting several hours to consume any protein), there is no evidence to suggest a measurable difference in effectiveness.


Addendum

Similar changes have been found for studies that have administered amino acids alone or with carbohydrate immediately upon completion of an acute exercise bout, 1 h after completion, 2 h after completion and 3 h after completion

How far away from the workout bout does it have to be before you consider it "peri-workout"? 4hrs? 6hrs? Days? Weeks?

ahamm002

If you had actually bothered to read the link, you would've seen that it's a research review of over 70 studies, published in the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition (one of the top academic journals in the field).

Yep, and it supports Peri-workout protein intake. You still haven't stated what your stance on this issue is BTW. Do you disagree that peri-workout protein is important? If so why link an article that supports it???

I've stated this on several occasions. Timing of protein intake is irrelevant given adequate daily intake. Barring nonsensical strawmen (ie training fasted and then waiting several hours to consume any protein), there is no evidence to suggest a measurable difference in effectiveness.

Too bad your "non-sensical strawman" happens to be the OP of this thread. Maybe you should have read the thread? Since the OP trains at 5am, I assume she's probably training fasted. And unless she's one of the few people who gets a lot of protein for breakfast, then she'll likely be better off taking her protein supplements right after her workout instead of waiting until late morning.

ahamm002

Addendum
Similar changes have been found for studies that have administered amino acids alone or with carbohydrate immediately upon completion of an acute exercise bout, 1 h after completion, 2 h after completion and 3 h after completion

How far away from the workout bout does it have to be before you consider it "peri-workout"? 4hrs? 6hrs? Days? Weeks?

So it could be 3 hours instead of the two hours I quoted. Wow, that a huge difference!

RonSwanson66

Addendum
Similar changes have been found for studies that have administered amino acids alone or with carbohydrate immediately upon completion of an acute exercise bout, 1 h after completion, 2 h after completion and 3 h after completion

How far away from the workout bout does it have to be before you consider it "peri-workout"? 4hrs? 6hrs? Days? Weeks?

So it could be 3 hours instead of the two hours I quoted. Wow, that a huge difference!

Yeah, 50% longer is hardly any difference at all.

RonSwanson66

If you had actually bothered to read the link, you would've seen that it's a research review of over 70 studies, published in the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition (one of the top academic journals in the field).

Yep, and it supports Peri-workout protein intake. You still haven't stated what your stance on this issue is BTW. Do you disagree that peri-workout protein is important? If so why link an article that supports it???

I've stated this on several occasions. Timing of protein intake is irrelevant given adequate daily intake. Barring nonsensical strawmen (ie training fasted and then waiting several hours to consume any protein), there is no evidence to suggest a measurable difference in effectiveness.

Too bad your "non-sensical strawman" happens to be the OP of this thread. Maybe you should have read the thread? Since the OP trains at 5am, I assume she's probably training fasted. And unless she's one of the few people who gets a lot of protein for breakfast, then she'll likely be better off taking her protein supplements right after her workout instead of waiting until late morning.

That entirely depends on how much protein she had the day before, and how long ago she had it.

Protein is absorbed at a rate of 2-10 g/hr (depending on the source). Coingestion of fiber and/or fat will slow this even more.

If she hadn't had anything for 8-12 hours, a small amount of protein would likely be helpful. But this is a far cry from the "2 hour anabolic window" you've been spouting off about.

turningstar

To the O.P.-

If you're not lifting heavy weights, you're probably okay with just your normal breakfast with protein. Im weightlifting, so I try to get my shake in after a workout, but if I can't, I just drink it later. I don't worry too much about it. I figure as long as im getting the protein in at some point, im fine.

Acg67

RonSwanson66

"What's the window of opportunity? Is it sort of like a nutritional glory hole? " - Alan Aragon