Something to think about: gender and insecurity.
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jetscreaminagain
Posts: 1,130 Member
Yet another great image of a strong, accomplished woman has resulted in a chorus of "eeww gross" and "she looks masculin" [sic] from the chorus of those-who-believe-the-world-has-a-need-to-know-who-they-are-attracted-to.
Sometimes we see this kind of response to an overweight/obese image. And rarely we see it in response to a drastically underweight image. But mostly, and especially in these forums, the "eww" gross 5th grade reactions are targeted at strong, accomplished women.
This is incredibly misogynist. Throughout the world, there are cultural differences in what is deemed attractive in women. Some cultures value women with a high amount of body fat. Some value women who are particularly skinny. What does not happen in patriarchal societies is a valuing of women who are strong. The more equal women are, the more their strength is appreciated and sought. So there's that. The "eww" response to stong women on MFP is a reflection of how far we really do need to go to value women as they are.
Here's what I really want to say: An "ewww she looks like a man" response says much much more about the speaker than about the target of that statement.
Expressions of gender vary among individuals. Men in America must expect people to question their masculinity AND their sexual orientation (which are two separate things) if they choose to become florists or hair dressers. Women are questioned about their femininity if they say "****" in some circles, or if they drive Subarus in some places. Or if they express an interest in tools and cars and weight lifting. This is because the expected expression of masculinity does not involve decoration and pretty things and the expected expression of femininity involves speaking "sweetly" and does not allow for self-determination and self-reliance.
But lets be serious, no one strictly follows the extremes of the expected gender expression for their gender. That's because we know that even if that guy is wearing a pink shirt, he's still a guy. His masculinity is secure enough something as small as a pink shirt doesn't negate it.
This is why male to female transgendered women are so vulnerable to some particularly sick violence from strangers. The existence of a person who had a penis but now looks like a woman becomes threatening to the acknowledged masculinity of the insecure *kitten* men that are violent against her. So they are violent to prove something.
So on these boards, when a beautiful, strong, muscular woman is denigrated as mannish by a man, you have an idea of what I think of that man and the several indicators of his manhood or lack there of (yes, including that). I feel pretty comfortable with the similar assumptions I make about women who criticize other women for being strong and accomplished.
That is all.
Sometimes we see this kind of response to an overweight/obese image. And rarely we see it in response to a drastically underweight image. But mostly, and especially in these forums, the "eww" gross 5th grade reactions are targeted at strong, accomplished women.
This is incredibly misogynist. Throughout the world, there are cultural differences in what is deemed attractive in women. Some cultures value women with a high amount of body fat. Some value women who are particularly skinny. What does not happen in patriarchal societies is a valuing of women who are strong. The more equal women are, the more their strength is appreciated and sought. So there's that. The "eww" response to stong women on MFP is a reflection of how far we really do need to go to value women as they are.
Here's what I really want to say: An "ewww she looks like a man" response says much much more about the speaker than about the target of that statement.
Expressions of gender vary among individuals. Men in America must expect people to question their masculinity AND their sexual orientation (which are two separate things) if they choose to become florists or hair dressers. Women are questioned about their femininity if they say "****" in some circles, or if they drive Subarus in some places. Or if they express an interest in tools and cars and weight lifting. This is because the expected expression of masculinity does not involve decoration and pretty things and the expected expression of femininity involves speaking "sweetly" and does not allow for self-determination and self-reliance.
But lets be serious, no one strictly follows the extremes of the expected gender expression for their gender. That's because we know that even if that guy is wearing a pink shirt, he's still a guy. His masculinity is secure enough something as small as a pink shirt doesn't negate it.
This is why male to female transgendered women are so vulnerable to some particularly sick violence from strangers. The existence of a person who had a penis but now looks like a woman becomes threatening to the acknowledged masculinity of the insecure *kitten* men that are violent against her. So they are violent to prove something.
So on these boards, when a beautiful, strong, muscular woman is denigrated as mannish by a man, you have an idea of what I think of that man and the several indicators of his manhood or lack there of (yes, including that). I feel pretty comfortable with the similar assumptions I make about women who criticize other women for being strong and accomplished.
That is all.
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Replies
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Yes. That is all.
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Very eloquent and well thought out. I hope people will take time to read and really understand what you are trying to say with this.
Oh and I heart you so hard, you rock!0 -
that statement took some balls... just sayin.0
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Hell I just think it's funny that so many out of shape people have the nerve to comment on someone who's worked their *kitten* off to look they way they want to look. Guess if you're gonna stay on the couch with the chips and hate your own body the only option is to try to tear down those who are doing the work.
It's sad and pathetic.0 -
I this post! 0
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hear, hear
There's nothing attractive about projecting your own insecurities onto someone else.0 -
OP...Very well thought out post. Couldn't agree more....and I'm not the lifter..uber strong woman...But I do admire those who put the effort into improving themselves. The only one who needs to approve of a persons body is that person.0
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I agree wholeheartedly, great post.
It's interesting - a few years ago, I was not personally initially physically attracted to women with much discernible muscle definition. As I got more into fitness in general, this changed and I now find this attractive. Not in a logical way, but in that subconscious chemistry spark that we have no real control over.
I think that some of it probably has to do with the understanding of what sort of effort and lifestyle this conveys, but I can't really explain it all. My * has a mind of its own, and he is all about it now.
Fit chicks who lift weight are hot, I guess is what I am saying.0 -
As a semi-muscular woman who swears and loves power tools... I thank you.
When I was young and skinny, I used to hear that I "looked like a boy" a lot. No, I looked like a girl. A thin girl. And a muscular woman doesn't look like a man... she looks like a muscular woman. And add enough excess body fat to either gender, and they start to have similar shapes to each other, too.
Individual women have different body shapes and sizes. They're still women if they have big boobs, little boobs, narrow hips, wide hips, a defined waist or a not-so defined waist. It's what's on the inside - quite literally - that determines if someone is a woman or not.0 -
I agree. I've never quite understood the idea of muscular women being manly. It's a degree of fitness and bodyfat %. If a woman lowers her bodyfat and exposes her muscles aren't her muscles by the very definition feminine?0
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Reason # eleventy-bajillion why I am so glad to call you my friend.
Everyone has their own opinions about what they find to be physicaly attractive, but to call someone "gross," disgusting," or "icky," is rude and disrespectful.0 -
Well said to the OP.0
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(:0
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Awesome post! Well said!0
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Great post!0
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<-- grill master, handywoman, enjoys shooting guns, fishing, and fixing cars & all woman
I love the point you made in the beginning of this post, because I feel like it needs to be repeated over and over again here. NOBODY asked who you are attracted to on threads like this. Nobody cares. The idea is to be supportive of people and their goals. If you don't approve of it for personal reasons, keep your mouth shut.
I would also like to point out that using words like "manly," "gross," or other derogatory words to describe anyone's body is against the rules:
4. Show Respect to All Groups and Individuals
No derogatory references to sex, gender, weight, body-type, ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation, or endorsement of violence against any person or group, even if couched in humor, will be permitted. This includes expressing stereotypes about any group or community.0 -
As an added bonus, I got exposed to this page from following a post on Fitocracy: http://2fit-2quit.tumblr.com/#top
Talk about motivating women that obviously are secure in their femininity!!0 -
Thanks, Liz, for pointing out the rule violation involved in calling strong women (or anyone else's body type) gross.
I meant to, but my OP was already tl;dr, particularly for the kind of thinkers who so instinctively respond with a stay-within-narrowly-defined-gender-expectations-response, and it is a shame they miss the point.
And thank you to all the kickass women and men who've indicated their support for this in various ways. Makes me hopeful again for the MFP world.0 -
I love you so so much0
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Thanks, Liz, for pointing out the rule violation involved in calling strong women (or anyone else's body type) gross.
I meant to, but my OP was already tl;dr, particularly for the kind of thinkers who so instinctively respond with a stay-within-narrowly-defined-gender-expectations-response, and it is a shame they miss the point.
And thank you to all the kickass women and men who've indicated their support for this in various ways. Makes me hopeful again for the MFP world.
No problem! I love this post, and I think it's a good length. I'm glad to see more women who are supportive no matter what someone's goal is.0
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