Something to think about: gender and insecurity.

AlsDonkBoxSquat

I find that we so often agree. Right now I'm a little softer than I like to be, but I'm becoming resolved to lean out again and get my bf% back down as I continue to lift. I find it appealing, my husband finds it appealing, quite a few mean have mentioned appreciation of my figure when I'm lean actually, no one else matters and they can take their opinions and shove them up their *kitten* because I'm not picking apart their bodies. If someone wants to pick apart my ideal I can go nose to nose with them any day of the week, but I'd prefer to keep their negativity to themselves as I've respectfully kept mine to myself.

deborahmills22

Bravo! Very eloquently stated. Thank you.

Meggles63

Yet another great image of a strong, accomplished woman has resulted in a chorus of "eeww gross" and "she looks masculin" [sic] from the chorus of those-who-believe-the-world-has-a-need-to-know-who-they-are-attracted-to.

Sometimes we see this kind of response to an overweight/obese image. And rarely we see it in response to a drastically underweight image. But mostly, and especially in these forums, the "eww" gross 5th grade reactions are targeted at strong, accomplished women.

This is incredibly misogynist. Throughout the world, there are cultural differences in what is deemed attractive in women. Some cultures value women with a high amount of body fat. Some value women who are particularly skinny. What does not happen in patriarchal societies is a valuing of women who are strong. The more equal women are, the more their strength is appreciated and sought. So there's that. The "eww" response to stong women on MFP is a reflection of how far we really do need to go to value women as they are.

Here's what I really want to say: An "ewww she looks like a man" response says much much more about the speaker than about the target of that statement.

Expressions of gender vary among individuals. Men in America must expect people to question their masculinity AND their sexual orientation (which are two separate things) if they choose to become florists or hair dressers. Women are questioned about their femininity if they say "****" in some circles, or if they drive Subarus in some places. Or if they express an interest in tools and cars and weight lifting. This is because the expected expression of masculinity does not involve decoration and pretty things and the expected expression of femininity involves speaking "sweetly" and does not allow for self-determination and self-reliance.

But lets be serious, no one strictly follows the extremes of the expected gender expression for their gender. That's because we know that even if that guy is wearing a pink shirt, he's still a guy. His masculinity is secure enough something as small as a pink shirt doesn't negate it.

This is why male to female transgendered women are so vulnerable to some particularly sick violence from strangers. The existence of a person who had a penis but now looks like a woman becomes threatening to the acknowledged masculinity of the insecure *kitten* men that are violent against her. So they are violent to prove something.

So on these boards, when a beautiful, strong, muscular woman is denigrated as mannish by a man, you have an idea of what I think of that man and the several indicators of his manhood or lack there of (yes, including that). I feel pretty comfortable with the similar assumptions I make about women who criticize other women for being strong and accomplished.

That is all.

QFT! EVERYONE on MFP should read this! Thank you for posting!

Sabine_Stroehm

Hear hear!!
:drinker:

Riawna1993

this post is the best

megsmom2

OP....thank you! Beautifully said. The whole masculine/feminine spectrum dynamic is much more complicated than many people are comfortable with, so they cover discomfort with jokes or sometimes with anger...very misplaced. Everyone needs to feel free to be the person they see inside themselves, regardless of someone else's definitions. We are all worthy of respect.

malins2

Great post!!!

Buddhasmiracle

I love this post!! I think that all people are beautiful in their own unique way...I found it disheartening that a woman who obviously is very careful with what she puts in her body and takes care of herself is denegrated for the way she looks. At 64 years old, an age when most people let themselves go, she grooms herself towards good health. Just because we as a culture associate a low BF% and muscle definition as "masculine" doesn't mean that it is solely limited to men. Woman can get there too...it just takes harder work with more determination. That is why I nominate her honorary MFP Queen for the day!

"At 64 years old, an age when most people let themselves go. . . "

Oh . .. really? So let's move on from this too!!

robin52077

As an added bonus, I got exposed to this page from following a post on Fitocracy: http://2fit-2quit.tumblr.com/#top

Talk about motivating women that obviously are secure in their femininity!!

Oh my lord they're gorgeous! Thank you SOOOO much for sharing.

yes! thank you! Love this link AND of COURSE love the OP!
♥

allisonmrn

Great Post and well written!! Thank you OP!!

gemiwing

I agree. I don't even read threads about bodybuilding women, or powerlifting women (my people!!) because the comments all become 'would I do her or not' and it degrades the hard work people put into their physique and/or lifting. It shows little respect because you're not talking about what they've done but rather, if they appeal to your naughty bits or not. It's all about you and nothing about them or their actions.

Picture a tiny ant. Now imagine that ant's tiny mouth. Now imagine a tiny mite that lives in that ant's mouth. I care less than the size of that mite about who anyone on MFP wants to sleep with. Reading page after page trying to follow a conversation about women who lift and having to scour through posts of 'hur hur I'd do her' or 'eeew nasty! I'd never get so manly!' are not only insulting but also boring as hell.

yuliyax

Love.

nymthiriel

Excellent post! Couldn't agree more.

becoming_a_new_me

I love this post!! I think that all people are beautiful in their own unique way...I found it disheartening that a woman who obviously is very careful with what she puts in her body and takes care of herself is denegrated for the way she looks. At 64 years old, an age when most people let themselves go, she grooms herself towards good health. Just because we as a culture associate a low BF% and muscle definition as "masculine" doesn't mean that it is solely limited to men. Woman can get there too...it just takes harder work with more determination. That is why I nominate her honorary MFP Queen for the day!

"At 64 years old, an age when most people let themselves go. . . "

Oh . .. really? So let's move on from this too!!

Yes, and please....let's not take a SMALL portion of what I said to pick apart when I had so many other positive things to say. I have worked with the elderly for many years, and yes...many people post-retirement stop worrying about fitness and just enjoy life. That is not to be said that it is a bad thing, but it can lead to health issues. I can't believe that you found a small part of ALL the positive things that I had to say to pick apart. Geez...I can't even be supportive without someone finding fault in my words.

gingerveg

I love you for this post
You=my hero

rsqsquad05

Very encouraging post~!

louised88

Brilliant post, I agree with so much of it! This attitude is particularly obvious in the comments made about Madonna. Women's bodies are judged so much and society places so much importance on a woman's body. It's particularly sad that so many women have been exposed to this toxic attitude all their lives and go on to police other women's bodies. (Not that I'm blaming them, internalised misogyny is insidious and harmful, but it's a good survival strategy.) The only answer I can come up with is calling out this attitude wherever you see it, but it's exhausting because it's everywhere and sometimes I just can't deal with another reminder of how women's bodies are apparently public property to be discussed and judged.

MashaSK

I agree with you here I want to get more mascular, not sure if I will make it or not. But I was all my life skinny and I fainted sometimes because of lack of weight for my height and in my culture women are super skinny till a certain age If you are bigger then XS maximum S you never find good clothes at all and then they get fat after getting married and having a baby...many people (including my family) think I am crazy by trying to lift and working out every day. I hear a lot of comments like oh you've been so skinny, you got bigger what happened I personally think a girl who can climb a mountain, swim fast, go to a long hiking etc is so much sexier then a skinny super model who is always angry for never eating and always having lack of forces. There are a few exceptions among that with really small bones And recently I start liking and wanting for myself to get biggers arms, legs, better 6 pack, not just flat but with muscles I really think it's the best gift youc an give to your health

GW1970

long debate with myself about if i could be bothered to answer this post. i have no interest in which female body form is the most attractive to certain people or not, simply is unimportant to myself , what i find attractive is my buisness and i generally don't discuss it with other people. so be want you want to be and don't sweat it. this particular statement though needs something saying

This is why male to female transgendered women are so vulnerable to some particularly sick violence from strangers. The existence of a person who had a penis but now looks like a woman becomes threatening to the acknowledged masculinity of the insecure *kitten* men that are violent against her. So they are violent to prove something.

in my experience (which is considerable) Transgenderd women are not vulnerable, their life experience getting to the point where they start to live as they should is so difficult,(far greater than say just losing weight ) they are ANYTHING but vulnerable when they start that process, they are not Victims, don't assume they are and certainly don't then display ignorance by putting the blame for any predudice they experience solely at the Door of "insecure *kitten* men" because a far greater amount of predudice comes from women ,who blindly think that "man" in a dress in the ladies toilet can only be there to harrass them.
please , the rest of your post is fine, you want to build muscles girl, you go ahead regardless of what anyone else thinks of the results, but don't go quoting something you clearly know little about in order to justify it.
just saying

amy1612

Awesome post!

jetscreaminagain

This is why male to female transgendered women are so vulnerable to some particularly sick violence from strangers. The existence of a person who had a penis but now looks like a woman becomes threatening to the acknowledged masculinity of the insecure *kitten* men that are violent against her. So they are violent to prove something.

in my experience (which is considerable) Transgenderd women are not vulnerable, their life experience getting to the point where they start to live as they should is so difficult,(far greater than say just losing weight ) they are ANYTHING but vulnerable when they start that process, they are not Victims, don't assume they are and certainly don't then display ignorance by putting the blame for any predudice they experience solely at the Door of "insecure *kitten* men" because a far greater amount of predudice comes from women ,who blindly think that "man" in a dress in the ladies toilet can only be there to harrass them.
please , the rest of your post is fine, you want to build muscles girl, you go ahead regardless of what anyone else thinks of the results, but don't go quoting something you clearly know little about in order to justify it.
just saying

I really appreciate what you are saying here. Transgendered women are not by definition victims, but I'm also not giving a pass to heterosexist men who assault them. You are right that the feminist community and women in general have been rather unacceptable in their unwillingness to accept transgender women as women all the same. I'm thinking of the Michigan Womyn's Festival as an example.

However, I'm not going to conceded the point about the particularly sick violence transgender women uniquely can become at risk of. There is a Transgender Day of Rememberance (here is a list of people who died in 2010 due to transgender bias: http://www.transgenderdor.org/?page_id=1194. By my count there are 32 names. As I was scrolling through I noticed one of the causes of death is "brutally tortured and burned") to acknowledge transgender people, primarily women, who were viciously attacked and killed because of their transgender status. This is the only bit of violence against a transgender woman I can think of in which someone died and it wasn't the transgender woman: http://www.startribune.com/local/minneapolis/157000805.html. I'd note that she will be going to prison (and housed as a man) even though she was defending herself from a gang (literally) of racist attackers.

I really appreciate what you said about the sum total of life experience resulting in a strength that is hard to quantify and that "victim" is a label that is not appropriate to them. I agree. As I think of some of the most important people in my life, I agree. But that doesn't change the fact that there is a subculture of insecure *kitten* that presents a scary risk precisely because of gender insecurity and opposite sexism/cissexism.