Beating a dead horse..

myfitnessnmhoy

Whatever you decide to do, try at least to bring your fat, carbs, and proteins into balance so every calorie counts for as much as it possibly can for your body.

You can also try eating a fairly consistent number of calories daily and try to build your deficits on a weekly basis (overeating a bit on non-exercise days, undereating a bit on exercise days, but maintaining an average of a good caloric deficit).

But undereating by a small number of calories won't hurt you as long as you are making the most of each calorie and getting all the nutrients you need. If it affects your metabolism, you'll feel it in the quality of your workouts (you won't be able to sustain the same level of performance) and in your daily life (more tired, less sleep, etc). At that point, you'll have a pretty good idea of what you need to do (it involves the words "eat" and "more" and also the measurement "a little").

I am NOT espousing underating by many hundreds of calories a day, by the way, for the "starvation mode" or "eating disorder" folks out there. But the thinner you make your diet, the more you want to make each and every calorie count for something to your body to stave off any metabolic effects.

mcarter99

Eat below what your body needs to survive in a coma?

Sounds smart to me.

By that logic one should never log any sort of caloric deficit at all. We would all just have to keep our body fat right where it's at, forever. Because you're implying it's not available to be used for energy.

No one is going to argue that deficit eating (up to 1000 calorie deficit per day) isn't harmful to the human body, if it's overweight. What difference does it make if you're making your body lift the barbell with deficit calories or lift your phone or expand your lungs? We don't get to assign each calorie to various functions. We burn X total calories per day, partly by daily intake, partly by fat stores.

mrmanmeat

Eat below what your body needs to survive in a coma?

Sounds smart to me.

By that logic one should never log any sort of caloric deficit at all. We would all just have to keep our body fat right where it's at, forever. Because you're implying it's not available to be used for energy.

No one is going to argue that deficit eating (up to 1000 calorie deficit per day) isn't harmful to the human body, if it's overweight. What difference does it make if you're making your body lift the barbell with deficit calories or lift your phone or expand your lungs? We don't get to assign each calorie to various functions. We burn X total calories per day, partly by daily intake, partly by fat stores.

Because your phone doesn't provide calorie burns. Nor does cleaning. But, I see you're one of those types of people.

sneekspeete

What's TDEE?

mcarter99

In contrast, I think you're a terrific person. But that's not terribly relevant to the discussion as it's not about you or me.

Lifting your phone and cleaning your house actually do take energy, ie calories. Everything you do takes calories.

MinnieInMaine

Every time I think I undserstand I find myself questioning what I think I know..

I'm sorry to be the queen of redundant topics, but I'm curious... I hear a lot of people say NEVER eat bellow your bmr because that's what your body needs just to function.

Then I hear people say you should eat your tdee- 500..

If I follow these rules then I would be eating bellow my bmr on the days I don't excersize..

my bmr 1631

tdee 1958 (with little to no excersize) = 1458 Bellow bmr?...
tdee 2243 (1-3 days excersize) =1743
tdee 2529 (3-5 days excersize) =2029

Is this right? Basically my calories for the day would be determined by my activity level and subtracting 500 from that days tdee?

If you are doing the TDEE-500 method, you eat the same amount every day. If you exercise 1 to 3 days a week, eat 1743 every day, for instance. Only if you're using the MFP method do you tailor your eating so strictly to your workout on a daily basis.

Regarding whether it's "ok" to eat below BMR, I don't think that debate is ever going to be settled. Read up on the pros and cons and pick a side, I guess. Personally I wouldn't but if I were very obese I might consider it.

I like this answer the best. You don't change your TDEE on a daily basis depending on what you're doing, you set it just like you set your activity level here on MFP. Pick one and stick with it...at least until your activity level changes drastically like you get hurt and can't workout for a month or decide to up your activity from 1-3 days exercise to 3-5 days exercise.

Good luck!

RuthieCass

Every time I think I undserstand I find myself questioning what I think I know..

I'm sorry to be the queen of redundant topics, but I'm curious... I hear a lot of people say NEVER eat bellow your bmr because that's what your body needs just to function.

Then I hear people say you should eat your tdee- 500..

If I follow these rules then I would be eating bellow my bmr on the days I don't excersize..

my bmr 1631

tdee 1958 (with little to no excersize) = 1458 Bellow bmr?...
tdee 2243 (1-3 days excersize) =1743
tdee 2529 (3-5 days excersize) =2029

Is this right? Basically my calories for the day would be determined by my activity level and subtracting 500 from that days tdee?

You subtract 500 from your daily TDEE if your goal is to lose 1 lb per week. If you are close to your goal weight (say within 20 lbs), a better goal is around 1/2 a lb per week. Also, a simpler way is to accurately identify your activity level to determine your TDEE instead of choosing sedentary and "eating back exercise calories."

Of course, you could stick with a large deficit which would likely take you under you under your BMR. I think a lot of people find that hard to sustain b/c of energy levels, especially if you exercise, and nutrition. You will also probably lose muscle mass at a faster rate than you would at a more moderate deficit. You probably wouldn't want to eat that little for a long period of time, but most people asking this question probably will try it anyway. But I don't think BMR is a magic number and you won't harm yourself by doing it for a short time. Just keep your protein intake up (and your fat levels fixed) and reduce calories from your carbs. This is better than sticking to the percentage methods MFP recommends.

Lissette_Brooks

LMAO

psuLemon

As much as an advocate I am for eating more calories, I don't believe it's terrible to eat below your BMR. Now, what I do suggest is to exercise to increase your calories in order to maintain lean body mass as well as your metabolism. But below is a study of those on LCD with two groups (one anaerobic workouts and one with resistance training).

"At the end of the twelve-week study, both groups lost weight but the difference in muscle vs. fat loss was striking. The aerobic group lost 37 pounds over the course of the study. The resistance-training group lost 32 pounds. A focus on weight loss would lead us to the conclusion that aerobic exercise is best. However, when looking at the type of weight lost it was shown that the aerobic group lost almost 10 pounds of muscle on average while the resistance training group lost fat exclusively and maintained their muscle mass. Most important, when the resting metabolic rate of the participants was calculated, the aerobic group was shown to be burning 210 fewer calories at rest per day!! In contrast, the resistance-training group actually increased their metabolism by 63 calories per day."

I understand the concept and believe it will help maintain LBM, but in reality, RT can offset said loss. Now,this is only a 12 week study, so long term affects of a LCD can end up being detrimental to your maintenance of LBM, but I haven't found a study that backs it up. But I will note, that for the 200+ people I have designed programs for, I use 20% less then TDEE to cut fat.


http://www.metaboliceffect.com/topic/38-nutrition-lifestyle.aspx

LuvAsia

What's TDEE?

mmapags

As much as an advocate I am for eating more calories, I don't believe it's terrible to eat below your BMR. Now, what I do suggest is to exercise to increase your calories in order to maintain lean body mass as well as your metabolism. But below is a study of those on LCD with two groups (one anaerobic workouts and one with resistance training).

"At the end of the twelve-week study, both groups lost weight but the difference in muscle vs. fat loss was striking. The aerobic group lost 37 pounds over the course of the study. The resistance-training group lost 32 pounds. A focus on weight loss would lead us to the conclusion that aerobic exercise is best. However, when looking at the type of weight lost it was shown that the aerobic group lost almost 10 pounds of muscle on average while the resistance training group lost fat exclusively and maintained their muscle mass. Most important, when the resting metabolic rate of the participants was calculated, the aerobic group was shown to be burning 210 fewer calories at rest per day!! In contrast, the resistance-training group actually increased their metabolism by 63 calories per day."

I understand the concept and believe it will help maintain LBM, but in reality, RT can offset said loss. Now,this is only a 12 week study, so long term affects of a LCD can end up being detrimental to your maintenance of LBM, but I haven't found a study that backs it up. But I will note, that for the 200+ people I have designed programs for, I use 20% less then TDEE to cut fat.


http://www.metaboliceffect.com/topic/38-nutrition-lifestyle.aspx

Best and most well informed post in this thread so far! Very nice bro!

mcarter99

the aerobic group was shown to be burning 210 fewer calories at rest per day!! In contrast, the resistance-training group actually increased their metabolism by 63 calories per day.[/B]"

I understand the concept and believe it will help maintain LBM, but in reality, RT can offset said loss. Now,this is only a 12 week study, so long term affects of a LCD can end up being detrimental to your maintenance of LBM, but I haven't found a study that backs it up. But I will note, that for the 200+ people I have designed programs for, I use 20% less then TDEE to cut fat.


http://www.metaboliceffect.com/topic/38-nutrition-lifestyle.aspx

Wow, that's a big effect... 210 calorie higher BMR! I traced back to the 1999 study and it's probably relevant to note that the dieters were obese and on 800 calorie liquid diets. That's totally not what I'm suggesting is safe for people.

I should add we're basically on the same page here. It's just the "you're eating your organs if you eat below BMR" that I can't stop refuting when I see it.

RuthieCass

As much as an advocate I am for eating more calories, I don't believe it's terrible to eat below your BMR. Now, what I do suggest is to exercise to increase your calories in order to maintain lean body mass as well as your metabolism. But below is a study of those on LCD with two groups (one anaerobic workouts and one with resistance training).

"At the end of the twelve-week study, both groups lost weight but the difference in muscle vs. fat loss was striking. The aerobic group lost 37 pounds over the course of the study. The resistance-training group lost 32 pounds. A focus on weight loss would lead us to the conclusion that aerobic exercise is best. However, when looking at the type of weight lost it was shown that the aerobic group lost almost 10 pounds of muscle on average while the resistance training group lost fat exclusively and maintained their muscle mass. Most important, when the resting metabolic rate of the participants was calculated, the aerobic group was shown to be burning 210 fewer calories at rest per day!! In contrast, the resistance-training group actually increased their metabolism by 63 calories per day."

I understand the concept and believe it will help maintain LBM, but in reality, RT can offset said loss. Now,this is only a 12 week study, so long term affects of a LCD can end up being detrimental to your maintenance of LBM, but I haven't found a study that backs it up. But I will note, that for the 200+ people I have designed programs for, I use 20% less then TDEE to cut fat.


http://www.metaboliceffect.com/topic/38-nutrition-lifestyle.aspx

This is a good point. But the people in this study were fairly overweight. It's harder for people that are closer to their "ideal" weight to retain muscle when losing. I'd be interested to see studies on people with, say 20 lbs to lose--how much would RT help them to retain said muscle mass? Also, when you no longer have a lot of fat stores it can be harder to get through high intensity RT that will help you retain muscles.

AngryDiet

I keep reading claims about eating below BMR, but I've yet to see anything close to resembling a convincing argument either way. That's the problem with level of armchair "science" on finds in a forum like MFP.

Have you noticed how folks call it "science" like that's some sort of automatically correct magic word to invoke?

P1: I don't think I need to eat above BMR
P2. So you think science is wrong?
P1. ... WTF?
P2: *smug look*

Of course some folks here give absolutely great advice, while others give horrible advice. The trick is figuring out who is giving which. Good luck with that! Or do what most people do, play the averages and just follow the herd.

But if I dare to look hypocritical by applying some logic to the BMR situation... if one eats below BMR for the rest of their life, then yes, they'll have a huge problem. But if one does it only for a period of time, then it has the potential to be helpful. The point of eating below TDEE is to use those fat stores to make up the deficit. Does eating below BMR, when BMR and TDEE aren't that far apart for the 5'0 girl, for example, suddenly putting her at risk? Doesn't seem likely to me, if done intelligently. But heck, I can't back that up except to say, science!!

Lissette_Brooks

Every time I think I undserstand I find myself questioning what I think I know..

I'm sorry to be the queen of redundant topics, but I'm curious... I hear a lot of people say NEVER eat bellow your bmr because that's what your body needs just to function.

Then I hear people say you should eat your tdee- 500..

If I follow these rules then I would be eating bellow my bmr on the days I don't excersize..

my bmr 1631

tdee 1958 (with little to no excersize) = 1458 Bellow bmr?...
tdee 2243 (1-3 days excersize) =1743
tdee 2529 (3-5 days excersize) =2029

Is this right? Basically my calories for the day would be determined by my activity level and subtracting 500 from that days tdee?

If you are doing the TDEE-500 method, you eat the same amount every day. If you exercise 1 to 3 days a week, eat 1743 every day, for instance. Only if you're using the MFP method do you tailor your eating so strictly to your workout on a daily basis.

Regarding whether it's "ok" to eat below BMR, I don't think that debate is ever going to be settled. Read up on the pros and cons and pick a side, I guess. Personally I wouldn't but if I were very obese I might consider it.

I like this answer the best. You don't change your TDEE on a daily basis depending on what you're doing, you set it just like you set your activity level here on MFP. Pick one and stick with it...at least until your activity level changes drastically like you get hurt and can't workout for a month or decide to up your activity from 1-3 days exercise to 3-5 days exercise.

Good luck!

Makes sense. Thanks!

tomhancock

Eat below what your body needs to survive in a coma?

Sounds smart to me.

If you think your BMR is "what your body needs to survive in a coma" then there is probably no hope for you to ever understand the interaction between nutrition and weight loss.

Eating less than your BMR just means your body will get the energy from its reserves.... from the body's fat stores, from your lean muscle tissue, etc... in other words, you will lose weight. I've been eating below my BMR for about eight weeks, I've been losing a couple pounds a week. Surprisingly, I have not starved to death.

Lissette_Brooks

Every time I think I undserstand I find myself questioning what I think I know..

I'm sorry to be the queen of redundant topics, but I'm curious... I hear a lot of people say NEVER eat bellow your bmr because that's what your body needs just to function.

Then I hear people say you should eat your tdee- 500..

If I follow these rules then I would be eating bellow my bmr on the days I don't excersize..

my bmr 1631

tdee 1958 (with little to no excersize) = 1458 Bellow bmr?...
tdee 2243 (1-3 days excersize) =1743
tdee 2529 (3-5 days excersize) =2029

Is this right? Basically my calories for the day would be determined by my activity level and subtracting 500 from that days tdee?

You subtract 500 from your daily TDEE if your goal is to lose 1 lb per week. If you are close to your goal weight (say within 20 lbs), a better goal is around 1/2 a lb per week. Also, a simpler way is to accurately identify your activity level to determine your TDEE instead of choosing sedentary and "eating back exercise calories."

Of course, you could stick with a large deficit which would likely take you under you under your BMR. I think a lot of people find that hard to sustain b/c of energy levels, especially if you exercise, and nutrition. You will also probably lose muscle mass at a faster rate than you would at a more moderate deficit. You probably wouldn't want to eat that little for a long period of time, but most people asking this question probably will try it anyway. But I don't think BMR is a magic number and you won't harm yourself by doing it for a short time. Just keep your protein intake up (and your fat levels fixed) and reduce calories from your carbs. This is better than sticking to the percentage methods MFP recommends.

I am going to eat at 500 bellow my tdee. The only reason I put light workouts 3 times a week is because I hurt my left ankle somehow and can't seem to workout more than 20 minutes before its tight and throbing. I plan on working out more when it feels better. Thanks for the advice.

NoAdditives

Any slowdown in metabolism is (1) slight and (2) temporary. It's a myth that you will hurt yourself or starve or not lose or die or be miserable and eat your couch and murder your family.

I do not lose if I eat below my BMR.

dbrinkmeyer

What's TDEE?

THANK YOU! Someone??

Pookylou

What's TDEE?

THANK YOU! Someone??

Total Daily Energy Expenditure - the amount you burn: your BMR x your activity level