Vegetarian diet and mental disorders
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I'm still puzzled as to why there would be any widespread agenda against vegetarianism, given the relative scarcity of meat. It's heavily subsidized and still expensive, and a lot of people would be very unhappy if increased demand caused prices to go beyond the reach of the average American.
Environmentalists are probably also quite happy with the idea of more people following a vegetarian diet.
Problem is that this is where environmentalists (who probably tend to be vegetarians too) are misguided. No good can come from raping the land of nutrients and high density farming to feed everyone an all vegetarian diet. Forests will be cut down, topsoil depleted, animals displaced and killed just to raise huge factory farms that do more to harm the environment than to protect it.
Pound for pound animals provide more nutrition and have less impact on the environment when it comes to grazing land vs clearcut farmland.
You didn't factor in the extra water required to raise the animals. One of the biggest sources of beef subsidy is water subsidies.
As opposed to all the watering that plants need in 1000s of acres of farmland? Additionally, if you are feeding a cow (or other animals) what they are designed to eat and not *kitten* grains and feed they drink much less and get lots of water from grass. That's not to say that they don't require water, but so does farmland.
You have to water the plants to feed to the cow, then water the cow, as opposed to just watering the plants, harvesting, and eating.
I'd be willing to bet that grass (and yes you can specifically grow drought resistant grass in hotter climates) takes way less water to grow than a field of, lets say lettuce or cabbage.
I'm not against vegtables and growing them, far from it, I just think that trying to feed everyone on a vegetarian diet would necessitate the destruction of more natural environments and death of animals through that destruction than is let on. To say the world could be fed on a vegetarian diet is silly at best in my mind.
I didn't suggest feeding everyone on a vegetarian diet, I suggested leaving the vegetarians alone for the incredibly selfish reason that more demand for beef will likely raise prices even with the subsidies, making it so I can't afford steak anymore!0 -
I think the conclusion is:
People who eat veggies - A-holes
People who eat meat - A-holes
People who breath air - A-holes
Sounds about right? heh0 -
I wish I knew happy Vegans and vegetarians. All the ones I know, got a holier than thou attitude and bought apple products. They became a bunch of pretentious a-holes.
Not sure if sarcasm...but I agree! I have a guy that works for me that used to be a vegetarian and he's be the first to tell you that part of what drew him to the diet was that he could lord is moral superiority over other people he met. He's older now and decided to give that up and eat meat. He's a lot healthier now, and much less of a little prick.
Not sarcasm at all. Here in the SF Bay area, all the vegans and veggies I come across (and personal friends who switched), all act like they were gods gifts to the world and that everyone else is beneath them. I lost friends over it, its ridiculous really.
Just to be clear, you can be a *kitten* regardless of whether you eat meat or not. I'm one of those "mentally ill" (insert sarcastic laugh here) vegetarians and I know a lot of self righteous a-holes who eat meat.
Why do we keep having these discussions anyway? Why can't we all just agree to disagree? I don't give a rat's *kitten* what anyone else eats and I appreciate people not giving me crap for my diet choices as well.0 -
Correlation does not imply causation.
Just because people who have mental illness happen to be vegetarian does not mean anything. It could have to do with a lot of other factors such as stress, family life, history etc.0 -
Except people do survive all the time without meat or milk and have plenty of energy. I'm not going to take the word of one person in 1946. My heart is also doing great. I don't say that people who do eat meat can't be healthy, and I'm sick of hearing that I can't be healthy because I don't. I'm probably out though on debating with you Marll--each of us has our minds made up, nothing wrong with that, but not seeing the point either.0
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Interesting 'Chicken and egg' debate here, if you'll scuse the pun. I've been veggie since i was 17 (am now 44) and have suffered from mental illness since before then. There is some evidence to suggest that taking omega 3 supplements can improve mental health, and the major source of Omega 3s is fish. I would describe myself as more sensitive than the average person, but this isnt necessarily a good thing! I can take things personally and agonise over them when they were not meant that way at all. I certainly dont feel superior to a meat eater - my veggie diet is just part of my normal day to day living, i dont think about it.
I became veggie due to a growing squeamishness over eating meat - for me the disgust is similar if you were to ask me to eat human flesh, i just cant do it! Now this topic has got me thinking, I do seem to have a general squeamishness about life in general. I'm a recovering alky so for years I drank to oblivion as i didnt much like my life. My current diagnosis is Borderline Personality Disorder, which means I struggle with a lot of stuff.
I dont think that suddenly eating meat and fish again would change any of this, but I do think there is a link somewhere. like i said, chicken and egg.0 -
This whole 'making fun of vegetarians' will only stop when there's more of them I think. No one makes fun of vegetarians in India. There are hundreds of thousands of strictly vegetarian restaurants, both high and low end (with menus over 5 pages long) and supermarkets and convenience stores that are completely vegetarian. It is an accepted thing, a normal thing. That is mostly due to the fact that millions are vegetarian there.
I'm non- vegetarian and everyone constantly tells me, "If you're gonna eat meat, eat it once or twice a week." Can't do that though...
Ok, I tried to stay out of this but India? Really? India is ranked 2nd in the world of the number of children suffering from malnutrition. The prevalence of underweight children in India is among the highest in the world...
You'd think being a vegan country they'd be healthier than that.
Yes it is ranked 2nd in the world for malnutrition in children, but what does that have to do with anything I said? Malnutrition is from not getting enough of ANY food, vegetarian or otherwise. I spoke about vegetarianism and non-vegetarianism, not malnutrition.
Also, there's a difference between vegan and vegetarian. India has never been vegan. People there look at you like you're crazy if you say you don't drink milk and eat milk products.
And fyi, being vegan, vegetarian or non-vegetarian does not have anything to do with being healthy. You can be healthy regardless of what you are. Please read carefully what I said.
I did. You said " It is an accepted thing, a normal thing. That is mostly due to the fact that millions are vegetarian there." Sorry, I don't distinguish between vegan and vegetarian - they're very similar to me.
And my point was that although it's accepted and normal there, it doesn't automatically equal a healthier population. The caste system is also normal and accepted there - doesn't mean it's a good thing.
Malnutrition refers to the situation where there is an unbalanced diet in which some nutrients are in excess, lacking or wrong proportion. For a predominantly vegetarian population, they seem to have a lot of unhealthy people living there - whether under-nourished or over-nourished (and they do have both problems there).
And with that I'm going to back out of this thread. It was not my intention to start a fight, I just don't think India is a good example of a healthy vegetarian population. Have a nice day kids - play nice.0 -
I read somewhere about a study that showed that vegans/vegetarians get more intense orgasms than people who eat meat. Do you want to debate that too?
Ok so seriously, **** those studies. Eat what feels right for you and don't judge those who eat differently. :noway:0 -
I don't have the link, but there has been some research linking low levels of omega-3s w/depression and anxiety, which some vegetarians tend to be low in. It looks like that study links it to mood disorders, not all mental disorders, so that makes sense. A little fish oil supplement can help.0
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And what else changed in their diets when they became vegetarian? Did they replace meat with concentrated soy+gluten substitutes? Were they junk-food vegetarians? Did they have reliable sources of omega 3's, B12, and other micronutrients? Did they have family and friends who were supportive of their lifestyles, or who bashed them and tried to sabotage them? Why did they go vegetarian? Ethics? Healthy issues? Allergies/intolerances/malabsorption issues?0
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I don't have the link, but there has been some research linking low levels of omega-3s w/depression and anxiety, which some vegetarians tend to be low in. It looks like that study links it to mood disorders, not all mental disorders, so that makes sense. A little fish oil supplement can help.
You don't need fish oil in order to get Omega-3s0 -
Maybe vegetarians have a higher degree of sensitivity in their makeup. This can make them sensitive to the plight of animals but also more sensitive to stress in relationships, work, school, etc.
Interesting idea, I wonder if there is a link there.
To add to the discussion:
I've been vegetarian my whole life so I've learned how to meet certain dietary needs that I think a lot of "young" vegetarians forget. It's really not as simple as "I'll just stop eating meat" you have to be conscious about the other foods your eating in place of it especially if meat made up the majority of your diet.0 -
woe I was depressed while eating meat and now you say I'm gonna be depressed being vegetarian dang I'm screwed! lol0
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Just want to conclude my participation in this topic by saying that I do apologize if my wording offended anyone. I was using sensitivity in the sense of "the strength of an emotional reaction," not in of a kindness or tact kind of a way. But I can see that the word sensitive can also be a loaded term. And finally, we can all be more sensitive to some things than others. :flowerforyou:0
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Just want to conclude my participation in this topic by saying that I do apologize if my wording offended anyone. I was using sensitivity in the sense of "the strength of an emotional reaction," not in of a kindness or tact kind of a way. But I can see that the word sensitive can also be a loaded term. And finally, we can all be more sensitive to some things than others. :flowerforyou:
I didn't think it was offensive lol I understood what you meant. I guess you could say vegetarians have more of a "gentle soul."0 -
I did not read every single comment leading to this one. However, I think everyone that is pissed off because vegetarians like to talk about the lifestyle, are just experiencing guilt or worry about their own lifestyle and don't know how to handle it. I know there are vegetarians that can be over the top, that is true of ANY person with a set of beliefs or a lifestyle. Take, christians for example, a great bunch really but sometimes it is just TOO MUCH. That doesn't mean you should judge everyone with that idea or lifestyle that way.0
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Navajos actually have a word that roughly translates to MeatHungry.0
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Here's a study that suggests that eating vegetarian IMPROVES mood:
http://www.nutritionj.com/content/pdf/1475-2891-11-9.pdf0 -
I haven't read all the replies, but I can believe that. There is a very clear link between depressive disorders and a lack of omega 3 in the diet, and a lot of vegetarians don't take flax seed supplements which would solve this.
I have been a vegetarian for 22 years and am a great advocate of making sure you get enough omega 3. Most vegetarians get too much omega 6 from olive oil, and don't balance it out with omega 3 supplements. I guess it's not an obvious thing to do, it is not a nutrient we learn about in school (even in A level biology).
So yeah, if you become a vegetarian without being very knowledgable about nutrition it is likely you will get depression.
I still don't think it justifies the disgusting mass fishing methods most developed nations seem to employ. You only need flax, not cod liver.0 -
Interesting; however, I suffered from depression BEFORE I became a vegetarian, and not once since. Gotta love science and research, but I have found that research can be manipulated to fit the desired findings of whomever is funding it. Just my two cents worth...
Exactly what basis for the statement that "I have found that research can be manipulated to fit the desired findings of whomever is funding it" do you have? Are you trained in any type of scientific research? What is your background? How much experience do you have? Believe it or not, not everyone doing research is out there trying to manipulate their results. And as a working statistician, I can tell you, it's actually more difficult than you think it is to do so. While I see a lot of studies with questionable methods, which may or may not effect the outcome of the study, this is more often a result of poor training of the researchers involved than any specific motivation.
I'm also a near vegan with a long history of psychological issues, all of which pre-date my conversion to a veg*n diet.0 -
of course, meat-eaters don't suffer from any mental disorders. that's clear.0
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of course, meat-eaters don't suffer from any mental disorders. that's clear.
:drinker:0 -
Maybe vegetarians have a higher degree of sensitivity in their makeup. This can make them sensitive to the plight of animals but also more sensitive to stress in relationships, work, school, etc.
VERY good point. Thanks! Kim0 -
This is interesting. Other posters have brought up good points. There might be a few things that brought about these findings.
1) Maybe people who go vegetarian DO tend to be more "sensitive" to the world around them.
2) Maybe vegetarians have different brain functioning due to less fats in the diet. Studies have shown that "good" fats feed the brain, so it would stand to reason that animal fats would affect the brain as well.
3) Maybe following a vegetarian lifestyle effects basic hormonal function.
4) There could also be something to what one person posted about lower primates having more anxiety. Maybe vegetarianism does set off some sort of subconscious mind game?
I do also think, however, that it is possible to manipulate almost any study to reflect the conclusion you are expecting. Did it say if any of the researchers themselves are vegetarian?0 -
What I find amazing reading this is the number of people who seem to be arguing that meat production is better for the environment when it is palpably worse in EVERY SINGLE WAY. It's worse in terms of land use, greenhouse gas production, deforestation, water consumption, and that's not even going into deep sea trawling or animal welfare. Meat eaters have exactly NO moral leg to stand on, not in any direction. Meat eating is worse for the entire planet. This has been proved in every single study on the subject ever. It's not even disputed by the meat industry.0
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I've had people tell me I'm f-ing crazy for being a veg, but besides that I'm relatively normal. At least the voices tell me I am.0
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Interesting study!!! It definitely caught my interest.
Who knows really! I personally think it depends on the person, you can get totally healthy vegetarians and totally healthy meat eaters, really depends on how they do it and every other little detail of planning their diets and moderation and exercise and genetics so on. Maybe some of these vegetarians are also depressed because they live in a busy city and are single? :S Strange!!!0 -
I agree with Flaxmilk. Thinking about people walking around, walking graves. Knowing the truths about our culture makes me really upset. Understanding the suffering and pain that is all around us, it can be depressing. Most vegetarians are not only involved in animal rights, they are concerned for the bigger picture as well, other activism. The planet and the survival of our species. Human rights. Human welfare. I am a vegetarian, and I may be more prone to feelings of sadness. It is not my diet, it is my awareness and the general state of everything.
This.0 -
What we have learned from this thread:
1. Some meat eaters think that vegetarians suffer from a superiority complex.
2. Some vegetarians apparently do suffer from a superiority complex claiming that they are predisposed to mental health conditions like anxiety disorders etc because their "compassion" for animals leads them to have a moral high ground that is much higher than meat eaters through their complexity of compassion.
3. The vegetarians on this and many other threads constantly strive to prove and validate their lifestyle while the meat eaters ridicule the lifestyle and constantly disprove it.
4. Both sides make some generalizations in epic proportions, quite amusing really i.e..e Vegans are mentally challenged/ carnivores are insensitive pricks.
5. The initial case study is extremely flawed with one or two people ACTUALLY reading the study and it clear indicates that their is no causal relationship between vegetarianism and mental health issues yet 5 pages of thread continues from it.
6. This like most posts on any public forum are much like any other discussion of politics and religion. Maybe diet needs to be added to the list of forbidden topics to talk about on a first date, Religion, Politics, Sex and Diet.0 -
^^
7. People are extremely sensitive to the word 'sensitive' and assume that people that use it are claiming a moral high ground despite it being a morally neutral term. People who are more sensitive (prone to stronger physical and emotional reactions) are possibly more predisposed to various mental health conditions. Someone mentioned Borderline Personality--research is suggesting that many people with BPD are biologically more predisposed to sensitivity and difficulty with emotion regulation, though this wouldn't be enough usually to cause BPD. Just as having a higher degree of sensitivity (strength of a reaction) wouldn't be enough to "cause" vegetarianism. (See the example of a very sensitive person who does not have a moral problem with eating meat. Just because they are more sensitive does not mean they are going to be a vegetarian.) On the other hand, someone with problems morally with eating meat who experiences LESS emotional reaction will be more likely to be able to "turn off" in order to avoid cognitive dissonance because they enjoy eating meat, despite having moral problems with it. (My husband will say that if we had pigs and chickens and cows, he would be a vegetarian, and he admits that if I wanted to eat cats, which we do have, he'd be furious and horrified. Because he can react less strongly, it would require more stimulus-the animal being in front of him or something he can't detach from-to change his decision.) He is not insensitive, but I don't think he would argue that of the two of us, I have a higher degree of sensitivity--emotional reactions--to not just meat but to most issues. I don't feel morally superior to him for this and often envy his more laidback abilities.)
8. If people who are more sensitive are more prone to emotional disorders, it's logical to question if the reason vegetarians have more emotional disorders is because they are more sensitive.
9. No vegetarian here actually called someone an insensitive prick (that I read) while others did call vegetarians half baked and liberals as having a mental disorder.
10. Compassionate =/= sensitive.
11. I know I said I was done with this thread. My bad.0
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