Lifting Question

michellekicks

Can anyone explain to me the difference between lifting for size/muscle gains and lifting for strength? Are they the same thing? I was just reading on the "Why your lifting sucks" or whatever thread that you can get stronger without getting bigger. I'm confused... do you do that by not eating more than you need but still lifting more?

I'm confused.

BTW, I have no qualms about getting bigger. That's not what this is about. But I do specifically want to get stronger.

geeniusatwurk

It comes down to the number of reps and the weight as it compares to your 1 rep max. It's too bad I can't add a pic to my message, because I have a chart that breaks it all down. 1-5 reps close to your 1 rep max will get you strength (think powerlifting a la worlds strongest man), and 6-10 reps at 60-80% of your max will, along with proper assistance work, get you size (bodybuilding). All size gains come with eating more than your TDEE, regardless of how you lift.

So if you only want to get stronger, do 5 sets of 5 reps, ramping up the weight progressively until the last set is 90% of your 1 rep max.

dellashanks

Yay! You just explained 5*5 sets for me! I was told to do that and had no idea what it meant. I've been using something similar with the body for life lifting.

michellekicks

So if you only want to get stronger, do 5 sets of 5 reps, ramping up the weight progressively until the last set is 90% of your 1 rep max.

Thanks for the explanation. So is there a specific amount of time you're supposed to rest in between or is it just however long you need to get the next set done?

meshashesha2012

So if you only want to get stronger, do 5 sets of 5 reps, ramping up the weight progressively until the last set is 90% of your 1 rep max.

Thanks for the explanation. So is there a specific amount of time you're supposed to rest in between or is it just however long you need to get the next set done?

for hypertrophy 45-60 seconds

for strength at least 2 minutes. if you're lifting heavy enough, you will definitely need those 2-4 minutes to recover

ItsPheebs

bump

shaycat

What might be some good 5x5 exercises one could do at home with dumbbells?

chrisdavey

What might be some good 5x5 exercises one could do at home with dumbbells?

squat, stiff leg deadlift, bench, row, overhead press. (and a pullup bar wouldn't go astray)

You will outgrow the db's pretty quickly though.

Rae6503

Growing muscle tissue usually requires you eat above your TDEE.

You can get stronger without growing muscles. Basically your body just learns to do things better. Nervous system adaptations.

shaycat

What might be some good 5x5 exercises one could do at home with dumbbells?

squat, stiff leg deadlift, bench, row, overhead press. (and a pullup bar wouldn't go astray)

You will outgrow the db's pretty quickly though.

Thank you. I already need heavier weights for my squats. I was pretty much just doing what you recommended. Maybe I will try the pull up bar.

DavPul

Just to clarify, 5x5 means using a weight heavy enough that you *struggle * to get that 5th and final Rep up. It doesn't mean using a weight you could lift 12x but stopping after 5 reps. And doing a total of 5 sets that way. The last couple reps on the last couple sets should feel impossible. Once you can do them all, move up in weight. That sounds simple but you'd be amazed how many people get it wrong. Like, almost everyone starting out.

A word of caution: 90% of a 1 Rep Max is a lot. Probably can only do 1-2 reps of this. I don't recommend doing that very often as it's more a test of ligaments than of muscular strength. IMO, better to use a weight that keeps you in the 4-6 range. YMMV

michellekicks

Growing muscle tissue usually requires you eat above your TDEE.

You can get stronger without growing muscles. Basically your body just learns to do things better. Nervous system adaptations.

So I was thinking that I'd try eating AT tdee when I start lifting... I'm going to still have a few lbs of fat I need to shed and according to the scooby workshop calculator thingie, if you set a goal to "lose fat and gain muscle" you can do it by eating at tdee...

See, my goal weight with my existing lean mass would be 150 lbs (20% body fat) but if I'm up to 160 I don't mind as long as I don't jiggle So I don't have too much farther to go, really... I'm kinda hoping starting to lift and eating at maintenance will do both.

Opinions?

DavPul

What might be some good 5x5 exercises one could do at home with dumbbells?

Unless you have a full rack of dbs at home, it's unlikely that your dbs are heavy enough for 5x5 on any compound lifts

chrisdavey

Growing muscle tissue usually requires you eat above your TDEE.

You can get stronger without growing muscles. Basically your body just learns to do things better. Nervous system adaptations.

So I was thinking that I'd try eating AT tdee when I start lifting... I'm going to still have a few lbs of fat I need to shed and according to the scooby workshop calculator thingie, if you set a goal to "lose fat and gain muscle" you can do it by eating at tdee...

See, my goal weight with my existing lean mass would be 150 lbs (20% body fat) but if I'm up to 160 I don't mind as long as I don't jiggle So I don't have too much farther to go, really... I'm kinda hoping starting to lift and eating at maintenance will do both.

Opinions?

^^^ agreed. Especially for squats & deads. You could try one legged stiff leg deadlifts with db's but it's not going to be the same as a heavy conventional deadlift. You can do bulgarian split squats with db's that aren't too heavy also and will be challenging for quite a while.

If you are new to lifting then a recomp eating around TDEE could be a good idea but if you still have some fat to lose then a calorie deficit is still required. Lifting just helps you retain LBM (and if you're a noob you "could" potentially gain a little bit) the overall cal deficit is still required for weight loss. Lifting + adequate protein + moderate deficit = fat loss. Hope that helps.

michellekicks

If you are new to lifting then a recomp eating around TDEE could be a good idea but if you still have some fat to lose then a calorie deficit is still required. Lifting just helps you retain LBM (and if you're a noob you "could" potentially gain a little bit) the overall cal deficit is still required for weight loss. Lifting + adequate protein + moderate deficit = fat loss. Hope that helps.

Okay, so then right now I'm eating at about a 10% deficit from TDEE... I have a big race coming up and don't want to sacrifice athletic performance by eating too little... so if I keep this up (mind you, it will be less food since I won't be running 45km/week while lifting) that should work then? I just want to make sure I get stronger. Maybe I'll save the fat loss for after I've gained some muscle.

Thanks for all the comments everyone...

chrisdavey

If you are new to lifting then a recomp eating around TDEE could be a good idea but if you still have some fat to lose then a calorie deficit is still required. Lifting just helps you retain LBM (and if you're a noob you "could" potentially gain a little bit) the overall cal deficit is still required for weight loss. Lifting + adequate protein + moderate deficit = fat loss. Hope that helps.

Okay, so then right now I'm eating at about a 10% deficit from TDEE... I have a big race coming up and don't want to sacrifice athletic performance by eating too little... so if I keep this up (mind you, it will be less food since I won't be running 45km/week while lifting) that should work then? I just want to make sure I get stronger. Maybe I'll save the fat loss for after I've gained some muscle.

Thanks for all the comments everyone...

Need to pick a goal If you want to get stronger you "can" do it at slightly below maintenance but you will most likely reach a strength plateau quicker than if you were at maintenance or above. If you're happy to leave the fat loss for a bit then around maintenance should be fine.

Remember, you can always adjust as you go

shaycat

What might be some good 5x5 exercises one could do at home with dumbbells?

Unless you have a full rack of dbs at home, it's unlikely that your dbs are heavy enough for 5x5 on any compound lifts

As I am pretty weak right now. I can fail by 5 with my dumbbells on some moves. Most though I do need heavier weights. I am slowly trying to build a better home gym, but it takes time.

Preacher224

No offense intended but some of the info posted is just wrong and some could be dangerous for a person who has not lifted for at least a year to build their secondary and stabilizer muscles. If you use your prime movers to muscle up 90% of max before you s&s muscles are strengthened you almost certainly headed for injury. I am a professional trainer and the first and foremost rule of training is the same as with medicine "Do no harm". Many have gotten their info from books magazines and the big guy at the gym. These are just three of the five sources that I was taught to avoid due to the myths they propagate. 12 to 15 reps is the range for maximum hypertrophy. There is a science to lifting and resting and eating that requires more than a paragraph to explain. That is why people pay people like me as much as $500 an hr to teach them what they need to know to succeed. I no longer train for money very often, but I do love to help people reach their fitness goals. Just so you know I once trained a man who held a world record in the bench. I have put 10lbs of solid muscle on a client in a little under 2 weeks. I have trained a young man who was supposed to die from a car wreck. His dad was a Dr. and I worked closely with him to reach the young man's highest potential in spite of his physical limitations. All people are different and it takes me quite a while to work out a schedule to meet their specific needs. Do you know if you are a mesomorph, endomorph or ectomorph? Do you know whether you have primarily white or red muscle fiber. If the answer is no then neither do the people who are giving you advice. As I said I don't mean to be offensive or act as if I know everything, I don't. What I do know is the wrong info can be detrimental to a persons health and well being. i would like to help you reach your health and fitness goals. If you like then you can add me to your friends list. Anyone else who would like to, feel free to add me. I will do what I can to help. BTW just for info purposes, I charge $200 just to create and exercise plan for a person that lasts 12 weeks, nutrition and supplementation plans are extra. As I said, I no longer charge for my services very often. I offer them for free most of the time. But this let's you know that people don't pay that much for info they can get for free from would be fitness gurus who know very little about the science of fitness. Wow, this is likely to make some people a bit mad but I see too much incorrect info going around the web and in the gyms. I have actually seen people who are self proclaimed trainers get paid to teach people how to do exercises that are sure to injure them. They have never studied anatomy or exercise physiology and are not trained in proper technique. It saddens me. Some may be injured for life by these people. Enough for now. Add me if you like.

geeniusatwurk

No offense intended but some of the info posted is just wrong and some could be dangerous for a person who has not lifted for at least a year to build their secondary and stabilizer muscles. If you use your prime movers to muscle up 90% of max before you s&s muscles are strengthened you almost certainly headed for injury. I am a professional trainer and the first and foremost rule of training is the same as with medicine "Do no harm". Many have gotten their info from books magazines and the big guy at the gym. These are just three of the five sources that I was taught to avoid due to the myths they propagate. 12 to 15 reps is the range for maximum hypertrophy. There is a science to lifting and resting and eating that requires more than a paragraph to explain. That is why people pay people like me as much as $500 an hr to teach them what they need to know to succeed. I no longer train for money very often, but I do love to help people reach their fitness goals. Just so you know I once trained a man who held a world record in the bench. I have put 10lbs of solid muscle on a client in a little under 2 weeks. I have trained a young man who was supposed to die from a car wreck. His dad was a Dr. and I worked closely with him to reach the young man's highest potential in spite of his physical limitations. All people are different and it takes me quite a while to work out a schedule to meet their specific needs. Do you know if you are a mesomorph, endomorph or ectomorph? Do you know whether you have primarily white or red muscle fiber. If the answer is no then neither do the people who are giving you advice. As I said I don't mean to be offensive or act as if I know everything, I don't. What I do know is the wrong info can be detrimental to a persons health and well being. i would like to help you reach your health and fitness goals. If you like then you can add me to your friends list. Anyone else who would like to, feel free to add me. I will do what I can to help. BTW just for info purposes, I charge $200 just to create and exercise plan for a person that lasts 12 weeks, nutrition and supplementation plans are extra. As I said, I no longer charge for my services very often. I offer them for free most of the time. But this let's you know that people don't pay that much for info they can get for free from would be fitness gurus who know very little about the science of fitness. Wow, this is likely to make some people a bit mad but I see too much incorrect info going around the web and in the gyms. I have actually seen people who are self proclaimed trainers get paid to teach people how to do exercises that are sure to injure them. They have never studied anatomy or exercise physiology and are not trained in proper technique. It saddens me. Some may be injured for life by these people. Enough for now. Add me if you like.

Jeez, you should be paying me $500 an hour to slog through that wall of text. Paragraphs man, paragraphs!

Determinednoob

I didn't read all replies so forgive me if this has been covered.

The difference between strength training and hypertrophy training is quite overstated with relation to new trainees. Discussions about myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy are superfluous. A new trainee should focus on getting stronger at the big lifts while eating in a caloric surplus to get a good base of strength and muscle. Later on (2-3 years of proper training) someone can specialize more and decide how best to train for their goals. All info needed to go from beginner to intermediate can be found here http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=146519303

chrisdavey

I have put 10lbs of solid muscle on a client in a little under 2 weeks.